Original Sin

[CCW95A]

OK - I don't want to enter this argument, really - but where does it say, in scripture, all babies go to heaven? And CW, I have real empathy for you because you are presenting as a politician who won't kiss babies (grin). I would like to think all babies go to heaven and afterall Jesus did say "let the children come to me". Billy Joel swiped an old homily, " only the good die young." If there wasn't a grain of truth, someone would have run over Hitler's mother when she was pregnant. I don't know where babies go when they die, but I hope heaven.

I don't know if you read my earlier post on this thread, so it is.

No body is born sinless on planet earth except Jesus Christ! If infants are why would Jesus need to have given his life for sins?
Peter tells us that even children need to have their sins removed for salvation.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus said nobody can come to the Father except by Him! There is no other name under heaven were by one can be saved.

King David had a very young child with Bathsheba through adultery and Lord took him because of his sin. Even though he fasted and prayed for his life the death of his son still happened. Yet, after his death David said ...

2 Sa 12:23 ut now he's dead. So why should I go without eating? Can I bring him back to life again? Someday I'll go to him. But he won't return to me."

David knew he would see his son again, but not in this world. He would go to him to see him again indicating that his son was with the Lord.

A infant can be a sinner and yet be innocent at the same time. When Israel disobeyed and did not take the promised land which God commanded them to do but led through the desert for forty years until they all died except their children who were innocent from their parents sins because they did fully understand their parents actions.

Deu 1:38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Even though these children were sinners they did not fully comprehend the difference between good and evil so they were innocent.
All children when growing up know when their parents tell them "no" not to do certain things, but they still do it smiling back at us. Sometimes they think it is funny when they disobey, and we laugh at them too because they are so cute, and adorable. This proves their guilt, but the Lord holds man accountable for his actions based on comprehending his actions as being wrong. Children all grow up to come to this comprehension at different times in their life there is not certain age were this comes.
God is righteous, merciful, and just in all his ways. The Lord knows all the circumstances in life and always does what is right in his eyes. There is no injustice with the Lord.

 

[Silk]

CCW - I read all posts when I join a thread. I won't get into that David lived before the crucifixtion and that at the time, all people went to the same Sheoul (sp?). I agree that all who are born (except Christ) are born with original sin - including those who die as infants.

 

[TezriLi]

I am a saved sinner who is going to heaven!

I sinned yesterday, today and will do so tomorrow but thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ who paid for my sins yesterday, today and tomorrow!!!!

Major, I was Arminian for @ 48 years then decided I could not believe that way anymore and switched to Reformed. Initially, I studied the Reformed beliefs continuously but slowed down somewhat since.

You wrote here, "I sinned yesterday, today and will do so tomorrow but thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ who paid for my sins yesterday, today and tomorrow!!!!" I really struggle to believe this.

This is what I understand: according to some Reformed believers, we sin daily in word, thought, and deed simply because we are not as perfect as G-d. For an example, even when I am thankful, I sin because my thankfulness cannot be complete enough to meet G-d's standards.

According to some other Reformed believers, we sin when we do a specific act that the Bible says is sin or when we neglect to do something the Bible says we must do.

I guess what I am asking is this: how can we, as followers of our Messiah, with everything laid out clearly for us to do/not do, be in constant sin? I guess I am not a very good Reformed believer, because I often cannot remember doing an actual sin in deed or thought every day. In fact, sometimes, I can't point out specific sins for days and days. It's not that I am so perfect (I So Am Not!), but it is sometimes hard for me to be honest and claim that I've sinned . . . .

I just don't understand.

 

[Abdicate]

Major, I was Arminian for @ 48 years then decided I could not believe that way anymore and switched to Reformed. Initially, I studied the Reformed beliefs continuously but slowed down somewhat since.

You wrote here, "I sinned yesterday, today and will do so tomorrow but thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ who paid for my sins yesterday, today and tomorrow!!!!" I really struggle to believe this.

This is what I understand: according to some Reformed believers, we sin daily in word, thought, and deed simply because we are not as perfect as G-d. For an example, even when I am thankful, I sin because my thankfulness cannot be complete enough to meet G-d's standards.

According to some other Reformed believers, we sin when we do a specific act that the Bible says is sin or when we neglect to do something the Bible says we must do.

I guess what I am asking is this: how can we, as followers of our Messiah, with everything laid out clearly for us to do/not do, be in constant sin? I guess I am not a very good Reformed believer, because I often cannot remember doing an actual sin in deed or thought every day. In fact, sometimes, I can't point out specific sins for days and days. It's not that I am so perfect (I So Am Not!), but it is sometimes hard for me to be honest and claim that I've sinned . . . .

I just don't understand.

You're full of dogma, religious junk (we all are). Read the word of God and believe the word of God:

Romans 6:7 (KJV)
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 7:6 (KJV)
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:10 (KJV)
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:13-18 (KJV)
Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We are dead in Christ, free...

Romans 7:25-8:1 (KJV)
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Silk]

I believe that Christ died on the cross for all my sins, past, present, and future. And as long as I am alive, I will strive to sin no more. I don't remember exactly when I accepted Christ into my heart - 7/8/9? I have not always walked the "straight and narrow" and continued to sin. Not because I felt I had a license to sin, but more because it's a struggle to live in this world (not justifying either) and some times I fell off the path. But, by Grace, Christ waited for me to recognize my errors, to ask for forgiveness and try to sin no more. The struggle lessens, as I grow older but it can rear it's ugly head now and again. By sin, I mean disobedience to God's Will. And I guess I will continue to strive to be perfect and continue to fail - get up and try again.

 

[CCW95A]

Major, I was Arminian for @ 48 years then decided I could not believe that way anymore and switched to Reformed. Initially, I studied the Reformed beliefs continuously but slowed down somewhat since.

You wrote here, "I sinned yesterday, today and will do so tomorrow but thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ who paid for my sins yesterday, today and tomorrow!!!!" I really struggle to believe this.

This is what I understand: according to some Reformed believers, we sin daily in word, thought, and deed simply because we are not as perfect as G-d. For an example, even when I am thankful, I sin because my thankfulness cannot be complete enough to meet G-d's standards.

According to some other Reformed believers, we sin when we do a specific act that the Bible says is sin or when we neglect to do something the Bible says we must do.

I guess what I am asking is this: how can we, as followers of our Messiah, with everything laid out clearly for us to do/not do, be in constant sin? I guess I am not a very good Reformed believer, because I often cannot remember doing an actual sin in deed or thought every day. In fact, sometimes, I can't point out specific sins for days and days. It's not that I am so perfect (I So Am Not!), but it is sometimes hard for me to be honest and claim that I've sinned . . . .

I just don't understand.

Tez, Becoming born again by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, is like a new baby coming forth into this world. It takes time to learn how to walk with out falling down all the time. Learning how to speak what is right, and think the right things to. Christ which is our new life can never sin or fall or ever fail, and for sure never die. Learning to let Christ in us to control us is what we are learning to do. As we grow older in the Lord we begin to walk farther without falling down, but it all takes time to learn.
We do have sin in us even though we might not sin at times, because there is sin in our flesh which is a constant reminder that the possibility of falling back is always present. This is why scripture tells us....

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Until we receive new spiritual bodies we will have sin in our flesh which is always trying to get us to walk in its ways.
Letting the love of God to control us is the only way of keeping the flesh at bay.

 

[KingJ]

OK - I don't want to enter this argument, really - but where does it say, in scripture, all babies go to heaven?

Matt 19:4 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
+ every verse that says God is good and just. Sending babies to hell is evil and dumb.

 

[KingJ]

If someone (babies) have not consciously sinned, they would still have original sin taint. Which one could assume was removed by physical death. They would have to be considered "righteous", right?

If 'original sin taint' had any truth to it...the devil...Adam and Eve...our parents would be hugely responsible for our eternal punishment in hell....but they aren't. God punishes and rewards us according to our works Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

 

[TezriLi]

Tez, Becoming born again by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, is like a new baby coming forth into this world. It takes time to learn how to walk with out falling down all the time. Learning how to speak what is right, and think the right things to. Christ which is our new life can never sin or fall or ever fail, and for sure never die. Learning to let Christ in us to control us is what we are learning to do. As we grow older in the Lord we begin to walk farther without falling down, but it all takes time to learn.
We do have sin in us even though we might not sin at times, because there is sin in our flesh which is a constant reminder that the possibility of falling back is always present. This is why scripture tells us....

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Until we receive new spiritual bodies we will have sin in our flesh which is always trying to get us to walk in its ways.
Letting the love of God to control us is the only way of keeping the flesh at bay.

Thank you for reminding me of these Scriptures. So easy to forget.

 

[Major]

Major, I was Arminian for @ 48 years then decided I could not believe that way anymore and switched to Reformed. Initially, I studied the Reformed beliefs continuously but slowed down somewhat since.

You wrote here, "I sinned yesterday, today and will do so tomorrow but thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ who paid for my sins yesterday, today and tomorrow!!!!" I really struggle to believe this.

This is what I understand: according to some Reformed believers, we sin daily in word, thought, and deed simply because we are not as perfect as G-d. For an example, even when I am thankful, I sin because my thankfulness cannot be complete enough to meet G-d's standards.

According to some other Reformed believers, we sin when we do a specific act that the Bible says is sin or when we neglect to do something the Bible says we must do.

I guess what I am asking is this: how can we, as followers of our Messiah, with everything laid out clearly for us to do/not do, be in constant sin? I guess I am not a very good Reformed believer, because I often cannot remember doing an actual sin in deed or thought every day. In fact, sometimes, I can't point out specific sins for days and days. It's not that I am so perfect (I So Am Not!), but it is sometimes hard for me to be honest and claim that I've sinned . . . .

I just don't understand.

I think Abdicate hit it right on the head in comment #64.

Remember, we sin because we are sinners. Jesus paid our "penalty" for sin which was death. That makes us "FORGIVEN" sinners.

We are not saved by not committing sins and we are not lost because we do commit a sin.

1 John 1:8-10 ESV
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. "

 

[TezriLi]

I think that every Reformed believer ought to spend a good long time being Arminian, believing Arminianism, fighting for Arminian beliefs with sincerity, so that we can understand each other better. The same for Arminians. It is so hard for us to tear down our walls enough to see what the "other side" is saying/writing.

We use the same Scriptures to prove our points, and while it makes sense to us, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to the other side, and we are oblivious to it.

 

[Major]

I only disagree with you on this point, for just as the OT sinners were saved by grace (not by works of the sacrificial system) looking forward to the promise of the cross and we by looking back to it, the condemnation that passed to us from Adam was instantly removed when Jesus stepped in and promised to be our Savior.

That is fine. I disagree with my mirror every morning, but I keep looking in it every morning.

Actually, Biblically....all the Old Test. saints were saved by FAITH! They were all saved on "credit" looking forward to Messiah ad we are saved on credit (Faith) looking back onto the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That faith allowed them to look forward to the coming of their Messiah.

Gal. 3:22......
"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Rom. 4:3-8..........
For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" .

 

[Silk]

It seems to me, as we claim to be in the body of Christ (Christians), that we are in a constant spiritual war, and as Christians, the only "manual" we have is scripture. And scripture is fairly clear, at least to me, where our involvement began. Adam and Eve, walked physically and spiritually with God in Eden. They, knowingly chose to know evil. They, who were closer to God than you or I, were deceived into disobedience. This choice is humankind's legacy, like it or not. Do I "blame" them? Only full of pride, do I think that I am more resistant to deceit than they were. It is what it is. Original Sin=All Sin. Blaming gets no one anywhere. Sin separates us from God. When we sin, it is our choice. How many times does Christ say, "Go and sin no more." YES - He forgives us our sins and it is important to our salvation that we know this. But it is equally important to know that as Christians we can sin again, to recognize it as sin (not try to justify it) and seek forgiveness for it. And try not to sin again. Isn't that what communion is all about? The spiritual warfare I spoke of is of the mind, each and every mind. As Christians, we should be held to a "biblical standard" and that is not as easy as some make it sound. With false doctrines, made out of whole cloth, or by way of twisted, out of context scripture, that appeal by the sound of it doesn't make it any easier. Anger is not a sin, it is the choices we make in reaction to that emotion, that can be.

 

[Silk]

It seems to me, as we claim to be in the body of Christ (Christians), that we are in a constant spiritual war, and as Christians, the only "manual" we have is scripture. And scripture is fairly clear, at least to me, where our involvement began. Adam and Eve, walked physically and spiritually with God in Eden. They, knowingly chose to know evil. They, who were closer to God than you or I, were deceived into disobedience. This choice is humankind's legacy, like it or not. Do I "blame" them? Only full of pride, do I think that I am more resistant to deceit than they were. It is what it is. Original Sin=All Sin. Blaming gets no one anywhere. Sin separates us from God. When we sin, it is our choice. How many times does Christ say, "Go and sin no more." YES - He forgives us our sins and it is important to our salvation that we know this. But it is equally important to know that as Christians we can sin again, to recognize it as sin (not try to justify it) and seek forgiveness for it. And try not to sin again. Isn't that what communion is all about? The spiritual warfare I spoke of is of the mind, each and every mind. As Christians, we should be held to a "biblical standard" and that is not as easy as some make it sound. With false doctrines, made out of whole cloth, or by way of twisted, out of context scripture, that appeal by the sound of it doesn't make it any easier. Anger is not a sin, it is the choices we make in reaction to that emotion, that can be.

 

[Silk]

It seems to me, as we claim to be in the body of Christ (Christians), that we are in a constant spiritual war, and as Christians, the only "manual" we have is scripture. And scripture is fairly clear, at least to me, where our involvement began. Adam and Eve, walked physically and spiritually with God in Eden. They, knowingly chose to know evil. They, who were closer to God than you or I, were deceived into disobedience. This choice is humankind's legacy, like it or not. Do I "blame" them? Only full of pride, do I think that I am more resistant to deceit than they were. It is what it is. Original Sin=All Sin. Blaming gets no one anywhere. Sin separates us from God. When we sin, it is our choice. How many times does Christ say, "Go and sin no more." YES - He forgives us our sins and it is important to our salvation that we know this. But it is equally important to know that as Christians we can sin again, to recognize it as sin (not try to justify it) and seek forgiveness for it. And try not to sin again. Isn't that what communion is all about? The spiritual warfare I spoke of is of the mind, each and every mind. As Christians, we should be held to a "biblical standard" and that is not as easy as some make it sound. With false doctrines, made out of whole cloth, or by way of twisted, out of context scripture, that appeal by the sound of it doesn't make it any easier. Anger is not a sin, it is the choices we make in reaction to that emotion, that can be.

 

[TezriLi]

It seems to me, as we claim to be in the body of Christ (Christians), that we are in a constant spiritual war, and as Christians, the only "manual" we have is scripture. And scripture is fairly clear, at least to me, where our involvement began. Adam and Eve, walked physically and spiritually with God in Eden. They, knowingly chose to know evil. They, who were closer to God than you or I, were deceived into disobedience. This choice is humankind's legacy, like it or not. Do I "blame" them? Only full of pride, do I think that I am more resistant to deceit than they were. It is what it is. Original Sin=All Sin. Blaming gets no one anywhere. Sin separates us from God. When we sin, it is our choice. How many times does Christ say, "Go and sin no more." YES - He forgives us our sins and it is important to our salvation that we know this. But it is equally important to know that as Christians we can sin again, to recognize it as sin (not try to justify it) and seek forgiveness for it. And try not to sin again. Isn't that what communion is all about? The spiritual warfare I spoke of is of the mind, each and every mind. As Christians, we should be held to a "biblical standard" and that is not as easy as some make it sound. With false doctrines, made out of whole cloth, or by way of twisted, out of context scripture, that appeal by the sound of it doesn't make it any easier. Anger is not a sin, it is the choices we make in reaction to that emotion, that can be.

Silk, I have absolutely NO business requesting this of you, and I am embarrassed to do it. But you owe me nothing, so I will make my request.

I have not been able to read your posts, because they are completely bold, and that kills my eyes. I've had a ridiculous migraine since Thursday. Certainly not your problem, but I want to ask: would you be able to drop the completely-bold from your posts? If you can't, I'll understand -- it is your signature. But thank you for even reading this request.

Off to work now . . . .

 

[Silk]

Sorry TerilLi, I use the bold to see what I wrote better because I always go back to read what I wrote. And I dunno why my last post posted 3 times. When I clicked to post, it said I was signed out and maybe resigning in did that. But I guess I can leave off the bold - forgive if I forget - it's become a habit.

 

[TezriLi]

Sorry TerilLi, I use the bold to see what I wrote better because I always go back to read what I wrote. And I dunno why my last post posted 3 times. When I clicked to post, it said I was signed out and maybe resigning in did that. But I guess I can leave off the bold - forgive if I forget - it's become a habit.

You're a sweetheart, but really -- don't do it unless you want to. I am just one person among many.

 

[TezriLi]

I just realized that when I want to read your posts, I can open them up in another window and unbold them myself!!

By the way, great post!!

 

[Phoneman777]

That is fine. I disagree with my mirror every morning, but I keep looking in it every morning.

Actually, Biblically....all the Old Test. saints were saved by FAITH! They were all saved on "credit" looking forward to Messiah ad we are saved on credit (Faith) looking back onto the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That faith allowed them to look forward to the coming of their Messiah.

Gal. 3:22......
"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Rom. 4:3-8..........
For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" .

Amen, bro, I forgot to add the part about "by faith" to grace. Can you imagine meeting Abraham in heaven and saying to you, "Oooooooh, you're one of those GRACE SAVED people. Hmph! I had to EARN my salvation by killing some lambs and keeping some commandments. You had it easy." Pretty silly, yet many Christians still insist that the "Old Covenant was based on law and the New Covenant is based on grace." It was always grace through faith.