Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Yes, he believed there would be a rebuilt temple, BUT soon after the fall of the Roman Empire, because as I have shown, he said that the empire "then ruling over the earth", the Roman Empire, would be divided into 10 kingdoms, among which his expected Antichrist would arise, and we cannot escape this. Please re-read chapter 26, section one.

    The "hour" of Revelation is the Greek word from which we get "era", which is exactly what history reveals - the simultaneous reign of the little horn and the other kingdoms which became Europe for 1260 years.

    The diverseness of the 4th beast is clearly seen in that the Roman Empire absorbed the various gods of those it conquered, which resulted in such a pantheon of dietys which can hardly be numbered today. However, the "little horn" is said to be diverse from the other ten horns, in that the Papacy was a Religio/Political kingdom, which it is again today.

    Again, Irenaeus taught that Rome would fall and be divided into ten kingdoms among which the Antichrist would arise back then, not in the future, as I have shown from his very own writings.
     
  2. You go girl!
     
  3. Where do you get "Rome" as a choice?
     
  4. I have no idea what you are asking. Could you elaborate?
     
  5. #325 Phoneman777, Sep 11, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    If you re-read my last post, you'll see that I specifically stated that my remarks were in brackets. The phrase "last times", which Irenaeus refers to, is specifically defined in the Bible as including Irenaeus' day, so any insistence by Futurists that Irenaeus' use of it was meant to only refer to the days in which we now live is a purely subjectively imposed idea.

    Question 1: Did Irenaeus expect the Roman Empire to fall and be divided into ten kingdoms?
    Answer: Yes, in his own words he states just that:

    "...and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned."​

    Question 2: Did Irenaeus expect the Antichrist to arise among those ten kingdoms?
    Answer: Yes, in his own words Irenaeus expected the "little horn" Antichrist to arise among the ten horns of the fallen Roman Empire and uproot three horns spoken of by both Daniel and John:

    "He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: 'And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as kings one hour (Greek 'hora' - "any definite time period") with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.' It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he (the "LITTLE HORN") who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them."
    Please read Daniel 7 where Daniel sees the fourth kingdom divided into ten kingdoms and the "little horn" Antichrist rise up among them, which is EXACTLY what Irenaeus is referring to in his above excerpts. If this is not enough to convince you, then we will be at "premise" impasse'.

     
  6. And I have shown that Irenaus taught that there were be a future temple in Jerusalem at the future time that the antichrist is revealed and desecrates that temple.
    And I have shown that Irenaus believed this to all happen in 3 1/2 years in the end times (which he taught would be the conclusion of the 600th year), just before the millennial kingdom of Christ which would be the 7000th year.
    And I have shown that he taught that the 10 kings (horns) represented all kingdoms of the earth at the future time at the conclusion of the 6000th year.
    And to top it all off, I have shown that he taught that the antichrist would be an Israelite of the tribe of Dan.

    I can further show that he taught it was useless to speculate on the specific name/number of the beast. And it is why Irenaus never specifies any name of the future empire. He never specifically connects it to the Roman Empire (or any other empire name). You have added that to his words.
    Irenaus was a man of details. He didn't have any reservations of mentioning specific names or places. But not once will you find him mentioning Rome, or the Roman Empire, or the Roman Army in connection with the end time antichrist.

    So yep. we are at an impasse, because I am not going to put words in his mouth that he did not say.
     
  7. Are you kidding me? Just what Empire do you think Irenaeus refers to when he says "...among whom the Empire which now rules..." refers to? Hint: It was the one ruling at the time he wrote that statement. Yes, we are at an impasse' but it seems for reasons more disturbing than I originally thought.
     
  8. Why is it that everyone wants to pick "Rome" as the endtime religion/beast that came back to life? Why not the Ottoman empire? They ruled Israel (~1400 years) more than Rome (~200 years) did and they the one from which the "eighth" comes from the 7th, which was the Ottoman empire. They ended in 1924 and Turkey is making a comback in Islam. They are the 7th rulers. The Ottoman empire fulfilled a lot of prophecies. So with all this evidence, why "Rome"?
     
  9. I think the reason you can't see it is b/c you don't accept the principle in prophecy of "repetition and enlargement", where God gives a prophecy (Dan 2), and then repeats it with parallel symbolism while enlarging it (Daniel 7 and subsequent prophecies). Even secular atheist historians have scratched their heads as to how in the world a 6th century B.C. Hebrew could have possibly known that Babylon would be followed by Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and then the barbarian divisions of Rome which became Europe, yet it seems that Christians resigned to Jesuit Futurism cannot see what even atheists admit is remarkable:

    Dan 2 Dan 7.jpg
     
  10. #330 Phoneman777, Sep 12, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    Brother, in all due respect to you as a fellow Christian I mean you no harm, but your "evidence" is based on the idea that "Jerusalem which is below" retains some significance in prophecy instead of allowing "Jerusalem which is above" (the church that is in Jesus) to be the fulfillment of such. Besides, the Ottoman Empire never "came up among the ten horns"; was not "diverse from the other horns" in that it was not only a secular power as they, but a religious power; never "spake great things/blasphemies" (claim to be God and the power to forgive sin); never to the degree of the Papacy "made war with the saints"; did not exist PRECISELY for a "time, times, and half a time" (1260 literal years according to Revelation 12) from 538-1798; never again re-emerged as a religio/political kingdom as the Vatican has done to which ALL the world seems to be "wondering after" including even Protestants who reject Protestant Historicism for Jesuit Futurism.
     
  11. See I believe the word of God for what it says, not what I think it says. Prophecy is of no private interpretation. To say a private interpretation is the only one is just pure ego. I accept a LOT of things about the word of God including dual meaning verses like the known day and the unknown day. When you demand people to believe a certain way you’re pushing them to become stuck in tradition, just like the nativity scene. Ask anyone in the word, Christian or not, to describe the nativity scene and they’ll throw in the “3 wise men”. The truth is, the number of men is not known only the type of gift they gave is which is three. Also, the scriptures state they met Jesus in His home, not the manger. Rome was a part of Daniel’s prophecy, yes, I believe that, but I do not believe it’s part of the end time because Islam fits much MUCH better into all the verses, especially when you line up the list of places the Messiah will exact vengeance on. If you lock yourself into one dogmatic belief, you’ll miss it when it happens, just like the Pharisees. Even John the Baptist had doubts, “are You the One”. You must leave the door open to more information otherwise you’ll be looking in one place and you’ll miss the whole thing in another.

    I’m not saying believe me, just consider it. I may be wrong, but for you to say I AM definitively wrong and that I don’t want to see the “truth” is just pure unadulterated pride. We don’t know 100%, it’s all interpretation with the facts we have. Before 1948 the Christian world believed in replacement theology. Then Israel became a nation. What then? (a rhetorical question – don’t answer). The perfect example is 666. No one can find it. There are tons of theories which I’m sure wars have started over some interpretation in churches. Everyone swore on their mother’s grave it was bar codes. Now we’re moving on to QR codes… what are they going to do with that new info which destroys their entire premise? I’ve presented MY idea, but even then, I do not believe I’ll ever see it because it’s implemented by the AC and I won’t be here to even know who he is. That is my belief. So present your case, as you have, but don’t judge me because I choose to not piece the puzzle together your way and say I don’t want the truth, that’s just flat wrong.
     
  12. Ahh, I see what you mean now.

    It is my speculation that each generation looks at the current situation and tries to tie it into if it could be the catapult of the end times.
    We even have folks today claiming that America is the beast and New York City is the whore of Babylon.
    And I've seen many speculate on the RCC. Everything from the RCC being the beast, being the 10 horns, and being the whore Mystery Babylon. (Make up your mind already! Which is the RCC?)

    But scripture explains that until you see the abomination of desolation in the holy place, that is when you know the time has come and THE antichrist is revealed.
    Before that time comes, there will be many wars and rumors of war, and there will be many antichrists.
    There is a difference between antichrists and THE antichrist.

    So, since Islam is a concern for us today, we do speculate as to if it could be the catapult.
    I know I have!

    So if you would like to start a thread on the speculation of Islam being the catapult (((hint hint))), I can add a lot to it!
     
    Abdicate likes this.
  13. AMEN!
     
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  15. I really don't know what you're going on about... I use the word of God for what I believe.
     
  16. As do I.
     

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