Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Time and prophecies can always be debated. And always are. It is my experience, whatever denomination of the debater - does so because he/she thinks they are talking truth, whatever their motivation. My mistake, in the past, was looking for truth in perceived contradiction. You don't find truth there, until you resolve your own "expected" contradiction. I read the entire thread before I entered the conversation - so I know what you have said. Leave out Daniel, if you don't see support - what is the restrainer? Church or Holy Spirit? I say both.
  2. Because you have no true church without the Holy Spirit.
    Abdicate likes this.
  3. My sister in Christ, Christians, like all people, tend to be suspicious by nature, not wanting to become victims of deception. But, you tell Christians what happened in church history -that the Jesuits were formed by the Papacy for the sole purpose of stamping out Protestantism and their Historicist claim that the Papacy was Antichrist, and set out to accomplish this by fabricating Preterism and Futurism - and the entire Protestant world for some reason decides to abandon all suspicion of the sworn enemy of Protestantism, ignoring the fact that every single doctrine they teach is at best not Biblical and at worst blasphemous, and embrace with arms open wide BOTH Jesuit doctrines while simultaneously and summarily rejecting Historicism though they are almost wholly ignorant of what it teaches. I find that simply incredible.

    BTW, we don't get to pick and choose who the Restrainer is, because the ECF say that Paul told them exactly who it was - the Roman Empire, "which upon the fall of the Caesars, he (antichrist) would arise." If this was opinion, I agree it would be up for debate, but since it is historical fact, we need not but accept it, regardless of the implication of it. :)
  4. #284 Phoneman777, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  5. We ended the debate without you responding to something I said, and without opening up a new can of worms, I wonder if could answer one more question: I'd like to know why Futurists do not accept that Luke likely used the Syro-Macedonian calendar in Luke 3 when it is a known historical fact that he used it in his reckoning of other chronology. The conclusion of the 69 weeks brings us to 27 A.D. Luke reckoned Jesus' baptism as being "the fifteenth reign of Tiberius Caesar", which according to that calendar would have been 27 A.D. This would mean Jesus began, not ended, His ministry at the end of the sixty nine weeks. Is there any stronger historical evidence to suggest that we should assume that he used a different calendar which would have made Jesus' baptism 3 1/2 years sooner than 27 A.D., or is your position based purely on what you believe the Holy Spirit has led you to? Thanks and I hope we can find common ground on other issues as we engage other discussions in CFS. :)
  6. I have come to believe that the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit. Paul had no reason to hide the identity of the Holy Spirit and I don't think it relates to the rapture either. Someone is restraining evil, the suggestion is Satan is actually restraining lawlessness because when he stops restraining his time is up.
  7. #287 Phoneman777, Aug 21, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
    I agree that it is not the Holy Spirit, based on what Paul told the Thessalonians in chapter 2:

    "Remember when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now you know what withholdeth (the Restrainer), that he (Antichrist) may be revealed in his time...Only he who now letteth (restrains) will let, until he be taken out of the way. Then shall that great wicked be revealed (Antichrist)..."

    In other words, when Paul was previously with them, he told them them the identity of the Restrainer preventing the rise of Antichrist, but refused to put it in writing. If you read my opening post, then you know that the historical evidence is that the ECF all claim that Paul told the early church that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, and upon it's fall, Antichrist would arise. This would explain why Paul refused to mention by name "Roman Empire" as that which would be "taken out of the way", lest that letter fall into the wrong hands and indict the fledgling church as plotting against Caesar.

    Protestant Christians wholeheartedly ignore the historical evidence in order to cling to their Jesuit Futurist theology, and claim that Paul was speaking of the Holy Spirit or the church when he spoke so mysteriously and secretively about the Restrainer's identity.

    But, as much as Paul wrote about the Holy Spirit's love, beneficence, and POWER for His church, he most certainly would have proudly named Him as the Restrainer which was preventing the rise of the church's great enemy in his letter, and it makes positively no sense for Paul to have been so secretive about the issue if that were the case. But, since the historical evidence says that Paul told the early church that the Roman Empire is the Restrainer, then his secrecy makes perfect sense. And, this is one of many reasons why I believe Protestant Historicism makes perfect sense, while both Jesuit Futurism and Preterism make no sense. What do you think?
  8. Theres no reason for Paul to be so open about the Holy Spirit and then get sneaky and not name him. And your right if the identity of the restrainer could have been named he would have named it but not naming it infers trouble if he did so. However if he is referring to a being as in a HE then the roman empire would not be the restrainer. He does say WHAT restrains could refer to the empire, but I feel he is referring to a specific being as preventing complete lawlessness.
    but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
    So who would it be then. I completely disagree that the church is a restraining force or a rapture of the church then opens the door to lawlessness.
    1 thess For we wanted to come to you—certainly I, Paul, did, again and again—but Satan blocked our way. So Satan has a blocking power, but would he block lawlessness? he would and could, if it was in his interest.
    Rev 12.. because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.
    So if lawlessness comes about satan can be pretty sure his time is almost up, but is he blocking or is someone else blocking?.
  9. #289 Phoneman777, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
    If taken alone, Paul's use of "he" does seem to suggest a person and not an institution. However, when we take into consideration the testimony of the ECF, tradition, and other verses which have their impact on the issue, it's not that difficult for one to accept the Roman Empire as the identity:
    • ECF said Paul told them specifically that it was the "seat of the Caesars" which restrained the rise of Antichrist - "Caesars" of course not referring to one man, but a succession.
    • Just as we use the words "he" or "she" to refer to any number of concepts including nations and institutions, the ancients, including the Bible writers, commonly did the same. I think perhaps Paul declined to use "she" in reference to what the ECF claim he identified as the Roman Empire for reasons of cultural mindset and that he likely preferred to reserve that gender as a special reference to Jesus' bride, the church.
    • Paul's use of the phrase "the man of God" in clearly refers to a plurality of men, so we have here a Biblical precedent in which Paul speaks of a plurality of men in a singular, figurative way.
  10. whats ECF mean?
  11. #291 Phoneman777, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
    Early Church Fathers. Prominent men who led the early Christian church, such as Irenaeus, a disciple of John, was one of them who wrote that Paul identified the Restrainer as the Roman Empire. Unlike the early manuscripts of the Bible, lost no doubt to their having passed through many hands, many of their letters were preserved and have come down to our day, so say the scholars anyway.
  12. #292 Phoneman777, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
    The opening of this thread is a remarkable statement by Grattan Guinness, a very notable English scholar and historian, who unequivocally says that the identity of the Restrainer is so well established as the Roman Empire by the ECF, that "it is a point that ancient tradition alone can have authority...modern speculation is positively impertinent on such a subject." Unfortunately, modern speculators have chosen to completely ignore the testimony of the ancients b/c it completely overthrows Jesuit Futurism, which claims the Restrainer is yet restraining the rise of Antichrist. The Protestant Reformers introduced the Historicist interpretation of Bible prophecy which claims that the fall of the Pagan Rome Restrainer gave rise to the PAPAL Rome Antichrist.
  13. Well, I was banned for a couple of weeks and was unable to respond to you my friend.

    "likely used the Syro-Macedonian calendar in Luke 3 when it is a known historical fact that he used it in his reckoning of other chronology?"

    Are we SURE or is that a "I hope so"?
  14. Before the Great Tribulation, it is alleged the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it is assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit.

    Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17).

    Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6).

    The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste.

    Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?
  15. Literally in the Greek, "And now ye know what withholdeth" is ...."The thing which holds down".

    Paul seems to be saying that for the time beaning, there is something which is holding back the appearance of the lawless one who we know to be the Antichrist. We actually do not know what that is.

    It may have been the Roman Empire. But then that is history!!!!
    It may have been the social structure of the day. But then that was destroyed when Roman fell apart!!!
    It may have been the law of the land. But we have more people in jail than any other time in history.
    Maybe it is the church???? But the church can not prohibit abortion or homosexuality or virtually anything else.

    So what could it be then????

    Now consider verse #7 of 2 Thess chapter 2 and the phrase "Taken out of the way".

    That gives a really good reason to then assume that it is the Holy Spirit which now hinders the work of sin. The work of the Holy Spirit is shown in the church and when the church is taken out of the way, the A/C will then be able to manifest his plan of world domination.

    In the masculine Gr. this statement is really strong and the entire section supports it. By the process of elimination, I think strong evidence is there that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

    If the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts man of sin and then points that man to Christ, is still on the earth for the Tribulation, what then is the purpose of the 144,000 Jews who are called to evangelize the world????

    IF the HS is still active on the earth at that, wouldn't He continue to convict of sin and point men to Christ????
  16. The Lexicon says "that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance". Satan does this. He is withholding and detaining the Antichrist till the right time when he is given the keys to the pit (Rev. 9.1). The major factor Satan is waiting for is the revived Roman Empire based on the 7 hilled city of Rome. The European Union just recently exceeded USA with greater GDP of about 20 trillion. USA is only about 18 trillion. Antichrist will need that kind of power to operate with. Satan will step out of the way for the Antichrist Nero resurrected take hold. Neron Kaiser = 666 in Greek (Rev. 13.18). Judas resurrected is the other "son of perdition" mentioned in the Bible, will be the False Prophet who exalts Nero as Prince William or whoever it will be. It's always fun trying to figure out who it is.

    "Until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way" suggests an individual such as Satan to let the Antichrist flourish not a body of people. What this is all about is Satan unleashing the Antichrist at the opportune time when certain elements come together. The Church body of Christ remains on earth, only the overcomers out of the Church are raptured alive (Rev. 12.5). How else can people come to Christ during the Tribulation without the Church and the Holy Spirit. That would make no sense at all. God could never be that cold-hearted like in the new tv series "The Leftovers". Satan is using this tv show to lead people astray.

    Why would you make mutually exclusive the Holy Spirit and the remnant Jews preaching for they do so by the Holy Spirit?
    The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 is simply referring to a remnant of Jews who will end up receiving Christ. Whereas the 144,000 in Rev. 14.1-5 are the overcomer class out of the Christians and more specifically out of the overcomer class are 144,000 that are closest to Christ who are first raptured according to readiness. They were Christians who kept as virgins. Be careful here now because Antichrist will proclaim abstinence as a virtue. He is very sneaky.

    Yes, with the Holy Spirit still on earth during the Tribulation He still convicts people of sin and leads them to Christ and adds to the Church.

  17. Welcome back. Try to stay out of trouble LOL! Luke did use the Syro-Macedonian, but scholars for some reason don't use it to calculate Jesus' baptism, they prefer to start at a determined crucifixion date and count backwards 3 1/2 years. But, remember, this same Luke says that when Jesus came to Galilee preaching immediately after His baptism, He Himself said, "Repent, for the TIME IS FULFILLED." Which time? The 69 weeks! His baptism, not His death, was what marked the "fulfillment of time", while His death yet remained for another 3 1/2 years.
  18. Actually I thought I had been really carful, but what do I know!

    Our differance is the same I am afraid. You are believeing that it was the Baptism of Christ and I believe that it is His death, more specifically His presentation as the Messiah to the Jews.

    I see no way to reconcile that differance so it seems that we will have to be in disagreement over this issue.
  19. There are 173,880 days from March 5, 444 BC the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem Neh. 2.1 so there would be 7 sets of seven, then another 62 sets of seven after which the Messiah would be cut off to Nisan 10, March 28, 33 AD, Monday (Gregorian). The 4 day inspection of the lamb was March 28, 29, 30, 31. Jesus died on the cross Passover April 1, 33 AD, Nisan 14, Friday.

    173,880 days = 7 x 360 x 69. The prophecy is accurate to the day.

    The final seven is yet to take place.

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