Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. I can not accept the idea that the restrainer is Satan. Why would Satan want to hold back evil????
    No sir, that makes no sense at all to me. As for men as you have listed, I can not see anyone able to hold back lawlessness. IMO opinion it has to be the Holy Spirit and anyone is welcome to disagree with that opinion.

    As I look at the world today, lawlessness is rampant. Even now with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the world is falling apart from lawlessness. Just think how it will be if there is no Holy Spirit present on the earth.

    He will be on a differant mission during thr tribulation period after the church is removed. Now the Spirit of God is sealing us unto the day of redemption when He will present us to the Lord Jesus Christ. If He did not do that, we would never make it.

    IMO there will be NO believers left on this earth after the Rapture. Now remember, the church DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE! It is the Holy Spirit who convicts and saves and seals the believer.

    Now as for the 144,000. The 144,000 of chapter 7 is the same ones in chapter 14. I know that there are some problems connected with that view but I still believe that it is the best understanding.They are the sealed, Jewish virgin men who Jesus started out with and He came through the Tribulation not losing a single one. What is that a picture of........Once saved always saved!!!!!

    IMO, since the Holy Spirit is not indwelling believers during the Tribulation there is then only one way to be saved and it has 3 points.
    1) Meet/contact one of the 144,000 Jewish virgin men.
    2) accept Christ as they give the gosple to the lost man
    3) and then refuse the mark of the beast.
     
  2. As was already said Satan is not stepping out of the way until the opportune time comes to unleash his Antichrist. We know this is what happens in the Tribulation. He is not holding back lawlessness, for it says lawlessness is already happening now. The Church and the Holy Spirit are not removed for people are still led to Christ and can fellowship during the Tribulation. Rather, overcomers are first raptured, because they are ready to be received up. As in all things, there are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere. The Holy Spirit's mission with the Church remains the same to lead people to Christ. God wants none to perish. The tv series "The Leftovers" is what you teach, but you can see this is evil if it were true, preventing people from coming to Christ as if this is some pre-Hell earth.

    There are many reasons why the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not the 144,000 in Rev. 14.1-5.

    14.1 Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

    Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

    (1) The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.
    (2) The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.
    (3) The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).
    (4) Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.
    (5) The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.
    (6) The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.
    (7) The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)
    (8) The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

    14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

    (1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.
    (2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.
    (3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.
    (4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.
    (5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

    Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.
     
  3. Actually 173,880 days from Mar 5, 444 BC (SDN of 1559316 + 173,880 days = 1,733,196) gives you 6 Nisan 3793 or 26 March 33 AD.
     
  4. Welcome back anyway.\
     
  5. Thanks. Just because we do not agree on this does not mean we ill not agree on other things.
     
  6. Yes, no Antichrist after 1400 years if Jesuit Futurism is correct that Antichrist is a person. But, the Bible represents it as a beast, horn, and finally a woman riding a beast for 1260 prophetic days/literal years, which the Bible clearly refers to as a kingdom- a religio/political system with a succession of men at its head. And such a system arose right after the fall of the Roman Empire - the Papacy. If the explosion of corrupted doctrine, superstition, idolatry, censoring of the Bible, and finally full blown persecution by the Papacy against the faithful to the tune of 150 MILLION slaughtered for their faith (the most common offense being the refusal to acknowledge the Eucharist as the "divine, transubstantiated body of Christ) doesn't constitute a "falling away" (Gr. apostasia) apostasy, then what else could possibly qualify more so as such?
     
  7. It is true that one can find ECF statements being historic.
    But it is also true that one can find ECF statements being futuristic.

    One such ECF is Irenaeus (lived ca. 130-202 CE), in his writing called Against Heresies (writen ca. 175-185 CE).
    He taught the the antichrist would appear in the last days. And he taught that the last days would be in 6000th year (i.e. the 6000th year from creation).
    He taught that this man (the antichrist) would indeed sit himself in a temple in the earthly Jerusalem in the last days.
    He even taught that he concluded from scripture that this man (the antichrist) would be of the tribe of Dan (one of the 12 tribes of Israel).

    Irenaeus was a futurist.
     
    Major likes this.
  8. Hello and welcome. We seem to differ on our opinions as to which school Irenaus subscribed to. According to H. Grattan Guinness, considered England's greatest prophecy teacher, Irenaus was not a futurist, but a Historist. He, like the other ECF, believed that Paul told the early church what he didn't want to put in the letter to the Thessalonians - that the Roman Empire was the Restrainer. He, like the other ECF, expected the Antichrist to rise soon after the fall of the Roman Empire:

    "From Irenaus, who lived close to apostolic times, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, the Fathers taught that the power withholding the manifestation of the ” man of sin ” (Antichrist) was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars. The Fathers therefore belong to the historic, and not to the futurist school of interpretation ; for futurists imagine that the hindrance to the manifestation of the man of sin is still in existence, though the Caesars have long since passed away."
     
  9. I would be curious to see any quotes of Irenaus that H. Grattan Guinness provided for his conclusion, for I have personally read Against Heresies written by Irenaus for myself.

    And as a courtesy to any reading this thread, I will find the exact quotes from Irenaus confirming that he taught about the FUTURE antichrist.
    It may take me a several minutes, but I will do it so as to lay the matter to rest.

    Stay tuned.
     
  10. I'm going to quote almost all the chapter so everyone can see that it is speaking of the time in which the antichrist will be revealed.
    I will bold the portion at the last which shows that Irenaus thought this to occur in the 6000th year.​

    Book 5 chapter 28 of Against Heresies by Irenaus:

    CHAP. XXVIII.--THE DISTINCTION TO BE MADE BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED. THE FUTURE APOSTASY IN THE TIME OF ANTI-CHRIST, AND THE END OF THE WORLD.

    1. Inasmuch, then, as in this world (aiwni) some persons betake themselves to the light, and by faith unite themselves with God, but others shun the light, and separate themselves from God, the Word of God comes preparing a fit habitation for both. For those indeed who are in the light, that they may derive enjoyment from it, and from the good things contained in it; but for those in darkness, that they may partake in its calamities. And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good.

    2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness."(1) For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire:"(2) [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;" whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints."(3) After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray."(4) Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it." He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the fight hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty- six,"(5) that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.

    3. For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: "Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works."(6) This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years;(7) and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.


    You can also look back at chapter 25 to know that Irenaus is speaking of the same antichrist that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians.​

    CHAP. XXV.--THE FRAUD, PRIDE, AND TYRANNICAL KINGDOM OF ANTICHRIST, AS DESCRIBED BY DANIEL AND PAUL.

    1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped--that is, above every idol--for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.
     
  11. This is where Irenaus claims that the antichrist will come from the tribe of Dan.​

    CHAP. XXX.--ALTHOUGH CERTAIN AS TO THE NUMBER OF THE NAME OF ANTICHRIST, YET WE SHOULD COME TO NO RASH CONCLUSIONS AS TO THE NAME ITSELF, BECAUSE THIS NUMBER IS CAPABLE OF BEING FITTED TO MANY NAMES. REASONS FOR THIS POINT BEING RESERVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. ANTICHRIST'S REIGN AND DEATH.

    1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies(3) [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),--I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.](4) Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture,(1) under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.

    2. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. This, too, the apostle affirms: "When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them."(2) And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein."(3) This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.(4)

    3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved.


    Also notice that part I made red text.
    Irenaus is saying to wait till that time happens, which means that at least by the time he wrote this (ca.175-185 CE), the division of the antichrist kingdom to 10 kings had not yet taken place, but was indeed a future event to look for.

    Irenaus was a futurist.​
     
  12. Last one for now.
    Irenaus taught the the antichrist would indeed sit in a temple at Jerusalem. Since there was no temple in Jerusalem during his lifetime, he had to be referring to a future temple in Jerusalem.​


    4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."


    Irenaus was a futurist.​
     
  13. The 6,000th year here mentioned speaks in terms of "conclusion of Apostasy/Antichrist", not "commencement"; namely, the conclusion of the great apostasy of Satan which began in the Garden of Eden and the reign of Antichrist which began at some point prior to this (arguably 538 AD when the Papacy emerged). The parallel - God creating in six days and resting the seventh/6,000 years of earth history terminated by a 1,000 year "Sabbath" rest of the earth - is a widely known idea to which I subscribe.
     
  14. I think you are confusing Historicism with Preterism. Historicism says Antichrist came in 538 AD, which was indeed future to Iraneus, and on this point we could say that Irenaus was a futurist. However, so far you've offered nothing to support a claim that Irenaus was a Futurist in terms of Jesuit Futurism which looks for the rise of Antichrist in our day. If you have evidence from his writings that he expected Antichrist to arise in our day, rather than on the heels of the fallen Roman Empire, I'd like to see that.
     
  15. #315 Phoneman777, Sep 11, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
    Sissy, here is proof from chapter 26, section 1 of "Against Heresies" that Irenaeus was a Historicist, my remarks in brackets added for clarity:

    "In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times [John, when speaking of the Antichrists of his day, said : "Little children, it is the last time.], and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, AMONG whom the empire which now rules (the earth) shall be partitioned."

    [Here, we see Irenaeus clearly acknowledging the Roman Empire as the then kingdom ruling over the earth which will be partitioned into ten kingdoms that would arise back then in history out of the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire, not in some future time period as Jesuit Futurism teaches. If Irenaeus believed in what we know of today as Jesuit Futurism, he would place the "ten horns" in the future as is popularly taught today, not in the past. In the next passage, Irenaeus tells of the slain 3 kingdoms.]

    "He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him:And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings. Revelation 17:12, etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these ["ten horns" kingdoms], he [Antichrist] who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them."

    This is classic Historicism: The fourth beast, the Roman Empire as long as it stood would prevent the rise of Antichrist, but upon the fall of it, there would arise from the ashes "ten horns" kingdoms which among them would arise another "little horn" kingdom which would uproot 3 kingdoms and go on to do all sorts of dastardly things.

    History shows that the "ten horns" partitions of the Roman Empire were the Saxons, Francs, Lombards, Burgundians, Suevi, Allemanni, Visigoths, Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths, among which arose the Papal "little horn" Antichrist which uprooted the three kingdoms of the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths, and put into subjection the remaining kingdoms.
    Irenaeus was a Historicist. :)
     
  16. I have shown that Iraneus taught that the future antichrist would indeed sit in and desecrate a temple of God at Jerusalem. A real temple, not an allegorical temple.

    If you can show that there was a temple of God in Jerusalem in 538 AD that was desecrated, I'm all ears.
    And if you would be so kind to show a quote of Irenaus stating that the 4th beast with ten kings was the Roman Empire, I'm all ears.

    Even a casual surface reading of scripture tell us that the 10 horns (10 kings) of the beast are 10 kings that have power with the beast for 1 hour. (Revelation 17:12)
    Indicating that all 10 kings have this power at the same time, not just 1 of them as if there was succession of them over several years in which all the others were past tense.
    Not to mention that is these 10 horns (10 kings) together that hate the whore (Mystery Babylon) and desecrate her (Revelation 17:16), not just 1 of a succession of 10.
    Likewise, in Daniel, the statue with the feet of 10 toes is not destroyed until the stone smashes the feet with the 10 toes. Indicating that both feet are presently in power when the smashing takes place (Daniel 2:42-44).

    And there is the added indication that the 4th beast of Daniel is said to be "different" from the other 3.
    The first 3 are given descriptions of known earthly animals (lion, bear, leopard).
    But the 4th is not given any description of a known earthly animal.
    Why?
    This 4th beast is so much more fierce than any earthly kingdom. And rightly so, as the 4th beast (the beast of Revelation) will be empowered with signs and wonders that are non-earthly. The Roman Army did not exhibit those kinds of signs and wonders. They were an earthly army with earthly power as the rest were.
    While the Roman army certainly had control of and even devastated Jerusalem, they did not do it with the sort of powers that that the beast of Revelation speaks of. They did it by regular old earthly power. In other words, there was really nothing "different" to speak of with the Roman Army than any other army earthly army.
    No, there was something really really different about this 4th beast.


    Everything needs to line up. And it's not lining up with the Roman Army theory.
    The world has not yet seen an army that demonstrated the miraculous signs and wonders that the 4th beast does.
    But it will.
     
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  17. I thing you are reading into it what you want to.
    The part I made red in your quote is not part of the quote from Irenaus, but was added by whoever was trying to make this appear as if Irenaus was a historist rather than the futurist that he was.

    Here is the entire section 1 that you posted part of (and I'm going to bold an important part):

    1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. For that the kingdom must be divided, and thus come to ruin, the Lord [declares when He] says: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." It must be, therefore, that the kingdom, the city, and the house be divided into ten; and for this reason He has already foreshadowed the partition and division [which shall take place]. Daniel also says particularly, that the end of the fourth kingdom consists in the toes of the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar, upon which came the stone cut out without hands; and as he does himself say: "The feet were indeed the one part iron, the other part clay, until the stone was cut out without hands, and struck the image upon the iron and clay feet, and dashed them into pieces, even to the end." Then afterwards, when interpreting this, he says: "And as thou sawest the feet and the toes, partly indeed of clay, and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided, and there shall be in it a root of iron, as thou sawest iron mixed with baked clay. And the toes were indeed the one part iron, but the other part clay." The ten toes, therefore, are these ten kings, among whom the kingdom shall be partitioned, of whom some indeed shall be strong and active, or energetic; others, again, shall be sluggish and useless, and shall not agree; as also Daniel says: "Some part of the kingdom shall be strong, and part shall be broken from it. As thou sawest the iron mixed with the baked clay, there shall be minglings among the human race, but no cohesion one with the other, just as iron cannot be welded on to pottery ware." And since an end shall take place, he says: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven raise up a kingdom which shall never decay, and His kingdom shall not be left to another people. It shall break in pieces and shatter all kingdoms, and shall itself be exalted for ever. As thou sawest that the stone was cut without hands from the mountain, and brake in pieces the baked clay, the iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold, God has pointed out to the king what shall come to pass after these things; and the dream is true, and the interpretation trustworthy."​


    These are the 10 kings (horns) of the beast.
    The end of these does not take place until the everlasting kingdom (the millennial kingdom) is raised up (the stone cut without hands).
    That has not happened.
    Notice that it is the everlasting kingdom that smashes them, and they are referred to as all kingdoms.
    It's not just the Roman kingdom of the 6th century, but the end times when all kingdoms come against Jerusalem and make her desolate.
    This lines ups with Daniels prophesy of the statue, and the stone (everlasting kingdom) smashes the FEET, and the WHOLE statue (all kingdoms) that the statue represents falls.

    While the Babylon empire, the Medo/Persian empire, the Greek empire, and even the Roman empire have all fallen; the 10 horns (10 kings) are not prophetic of any of those particular kingdoms at a particular time in history, but are phrofetic all kingdoms of earth that exist in the end times. And those kingdoms that exist in the end times are going to be accompanied with miraculous powers (signs and wonders) that no army to date has shown.
     
  18. I'm ready! Wish it was sooner!

    I gotta take the time to look over everything in the link you gave. Thanks!

    I made a chart awhile back documenting the timeline from Adam to Jacob.
    (I may post it if a thread comes up that it can relate to.)

    It was very interesting to note that Adam was still alive when all of Noah's ancestors (father, grandfather, and so on) were alive.
    That means that every generation prior to Noah could have heard first hand stories of the garden of Eden from Adam himself,

    It was also interesting to note that all of Isaac's ancestors to Seth (Noah's son) were alive before Seth died and could have heard first hand stories of the flood.
     
    Major likes this.
  19. You and me both! I wrote a book on it and it's on the left of the screen on the link above. It took me ten years to write because I wanted to use the scriptures instead of history to show authenticity of the scriptures to tell us where we are today. I'm writing another one on the Shemita (Seven Year Cycle) which starts on the 25th of Sep this year. Given the timing of the blood red moons and the patterns they too represent, makes you scratch your head.
     

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