We can call it a red herring, but the question is was Mary obedient to God's plan or not?
Is Mary the New Eve?
- Thread starter Major
- Start date
We can call it a red herring, but the question is was Mary obedient to God's plan or not?
ok, same here, this is just plain conversation what follows : )
Ahh ok, thanks, I understand now the point being made.
Elevation was mentioned….
WHAT reasons to elevate the great men and women Saints : wow, there is a lot of reasons, that I can only admire them…
WHY reasons to elevate: now this is personal speculation:
Am not, and I dare not judge the Christian missionaries in the past of their methods, of the difficulties they faced.. more so I can only imagine those difficulties…..
The pagans are used to (it is a habit hard to break) have gods and goddesses for “a good harvest”… a “justice”, for “war”, Apollo, Venus, Minerva, Jupiter, etc…
Give them saints then, men and women, patron for a “good labor”, “missing/ lost items”, etc. (NOTE: not gods and goddesses,,, just saints...
Now, having said that, and in case Mr. Glomung enter the thread, instead of just observing…. : )
.... asking me what basis I have:
I have none…. just pure speculation by a newbie on world history….
If asked if I approve their methods?
Luke 10:13-16New King James Version (NKJV)
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.[a] 16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
Last edited:
Not to get too critical of the word "elevation" -- by no means do I mean to read too much into it -- but I'm not sure if when you say that, you're expressing concern for worshiping Mary or concern for admiring her.
Yes, that's it: worshipping vs. admiring: I would say the line is not thin....
is there a possibility of individual people crossing the line? who knows the heart of men... thus, am not to judge....
Glomung
Account Closed
If I understand your point, it is perfectly justified to assume that from a skeptics point of view.
The peasants had their gods, we will "christianize" them and give them "saints" to give them the same warm and fuzzies.
The only problem with this point of view is that it is in contradiction with reality.
The "saints" are characterized by their complete devotion to and obedience to God. A condition which the average parishioner
never even begins to approach. Becasue of their devotion and obedience they truly do have God's ear, and can achieve the miraculous both in
this life and the afterlife. When a person calls upon a saint it is no different than a child calling upon their elder for aid, and the saint, through his virtue, has much more pull with God than the one needing the aid. "The prayers of a righteous man avail much."
Perhaps you should read the biographies of a few saints and it might grant you some more insight.
I would recommend Padre Pio, St. Francis of Assissi, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Francis Xavier, and St. Hermas of Alaska.
There are quite a few saints still performing wonders to this day.
Now, all the way back to Isaiah 7:14 we find what the sign will be of the Messiah. He will be born of "THE" virgin.
IN the Hebrew, "A Virgin" is correctly translated as THE Virgin. The use of the Hebrew definite article "ha" in conjunction with the woman in the passage of Isaiah 7:14 tells us that a "DEFINATE" woman is in view to he mind of God's prophet. All of the men I have studied over the years conclude that the best word used by the article in "ha'almah is best explained by the present tense of the context of the verse so that the girl is present to the inward perception of Isaiah. That means a definite girl is in view. The point then is that She has already be ordained by God to Isaiah.
What am I saying??? I am saying that she did not have a choice at all by which to be obedient because she was not asked.
Luke 1:39............
kata to rhema sou = "according to your word" was Mary's response to the angel.
That refers back to v. 37, which literally reads: "because every word will not be impossible with God" or, to paraphrase: ......
"What God says will happen." It would seem from v. 37, that Mary had no choice in the matter -- God said it. It will happen.
And you and I would be included Glomung. We are "saints"!!
The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is always used in the plural, “saints.”
Acts 9:13........................
"…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem".
Acts 9:32.......................
"Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda".
Acts 26:10.....................
"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“.
Philippians 4:21...........
"Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…".
The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).
Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly:...........
“To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…”
We are of the same mind.
There are two extremes to this IMO.
1). We (Not me, but lots of Protestant believers) do not give Mary the respect and honor she deserves as giving birth to the Lord Jesus and being His mother and raising Him. And for that matter we tend to give Joseph almost NO respect for what he did in being the earthly father to the Lord Jesus.
2). The RCC gives too much respect and honor to Mary which has over the years by one way or another lifted her to a place of reverence to which she is not due, Biblically speaking.
That is only my opinion for what ever it is worth. I am uncomfortable in discussing this because no matter what we say, it appears that one extreme is always going to try to persuade the other to its point of view.
I am glad however that we have been able to discuss this like Christian adults so far. I would venture to say that if we tried this a couple of weeks ago it would already be closed down!
I understand completely. The very same thing can be said of me.
Glomung
Account Closed
Major, the sad truth is that saints are few and far between. We are NOT saints.
Had you ever met one you would know the difference.
They radiate the presence of Jesus Christ because they have given themselves to Him completely (or as much as they could).
The VAST MAJORITY of Christians spend their lives in a manner that makes them completely indistinguishable from the heathens,
they are not saints. As I mentioned earlier, read the biographies of a few well known saints and you might gain some insight on the difference.
Had you ever met one you would know the difference.
They radiate the presence of Jesus Christ because they have given themselves to Him completely (or as much as they could).
The VAST MAJORITY of Christians spend their lives in a manner that makes them completely indistinguishable from the heathens,
they are not saints. As I mentioned earlier, read the biographies of a few well known saints and you might gain some insight on the difference.
Hi again, aha~
...very hard for me to follow your thoughts...
I cannot decipher the points you are trying to make!
But yes, I mention elevation of Mary by the RCC because while I do consider her blessed and praiseworthy, I feel the RCC goes waaaay beyond appropriate honor to her. So I am trying to point out some of the ways I believe that the text is misquoted by the RCC in order to elevate Mary to a higher position in the minds of people than what the Scriptures show.
Hello Major~
My posts on this subject probably sound like I too, am a Protestant that does not give Mary ENOUGH honor and respect. But I do, in my mind consider her blessed and praiseworthy. I have tried to put myself in her shoes and in the context of the times she lived in. I highly doubt I would have been near as accepting as she was.
We hear little of the actual difficulties she probably faced and who knows how many times she may have had doubts and troubling thoughts during her pregnancy and rearing of Jesus. I had two babies before I was 18 and the trials I faced brought me many difficulties...I often felt like giving up and was blessed to have supportive family.
I agree with you about giving honor to Joseph as well. He must have been a mature man with generous qualities to stand by Mary.
Thank you for your post. I was thinking as well that I sounded like I give NO honor to Mary because of being so busy trying to show the other side their extreme thinking. You put it well!
Lys~
I'm not questioning whether or not Mary was obedient. I was questioning whether or not she had been REQUESTED to do what she did.
I think Major made a good point regarding our individual views on this. So, I promise to give more consideration to Mary's role, if you could consider re-evaluating how the RCC's viewpoint may be a bit extreme as well. Can we agree on this? Who knows where our open minds mind lead us!
As long as we don't open our minds so wide that our brains fall out!!
Peace, Brother... I thank you for your articulate writing and the amount of time you have spent forming your view for me. Your research and writing skills are very good, and while I may not agree with where they have taken you, I do appreciate you.
I appreciate the response, Cloud.
I'll be honest -- I agonized over this for years in my process of conversion from Evangelicalism to Catholicism. I know this is a cliche, but having been on that side of the argument, I know it quite well. I don't think the Catholic Church's viewpoint is extreme one bit. I think it is on point.
I only came to that conclusion through open-mindedness...otherwise, I'd probably still hold the position that Mary was nothing more than a incubator for Jesus.
I go to work and come back and the thread has blossomed to 5 pages, yet hasn't blown up into a heated battle of words... Excellent! (...at least I assume that's the case: I only skimmed through the posts.)
On a point made further back, I don't see Mary as the mother of God so much as the mother of the Son of God. Her function as mother ties in with Jesus' humanity rather than His deity. But maybe I'm getting too picky.
On a point made further back, I don't see Mary as the mother of God so much as the mother of the Son of God. Her function as mother ties in with Jesus' humanity rather than His deity. But maybe I'm getting too picky.
All Christians radiate Jesus. That is why we are spread like the salt of the earth. The vast majority are just entrusted with / become content with little.
That is where I do agree with you. Some saints > other saints. Everyone of us could / should be a Mother Theresa tomorrow, but.........we just aren't.
I have been in agreement with just about all that you have posted and I am glad to have you here. My hope is that you will stay for a long time as we need people who are grounded in the Word of God and you appear to be just that.
Believe me.....I am glad my comment spoke to you but it certainly was not aimed at you. It was just something I have noticed over the years.
I am sorry to disagree with you my friend, usually I don't, but this time I have to.
You are correct in that many Christians live more closer to the flame of sin than they do to the glory of God.
That however does not mean that ALL are not saints.
I would encourage you to read the information I gave about saints and how we as believers in Christ are in fact "Saints". That is what the Bible defines a saint to be and I am as always going to go with the Scriptures and not the tradition or thoughts of men.
Now, as for ever being around a saint, that I do ever single day my brother. My dear wife of 46 years (Tomorrow by the way) spent 7 years of her life driving 60 miles every day to care for, wash and feed her mother who was paralyzed and never complained. Then 5 years ago my mother developed Alzheimer's and she once again put here nursing life on hold to care for her mother in law with love and compassion beyond comprehension.
Then just 1 month ago, a dear SAINT of God at our church who herself is 99 years old, asked us if she could come and sit with and care for my mother so that my wife could go to church. Can you imagine a dear woman at 99 wanting to help others when she herself needs to be cared for???
I can give you testimonies of these kind of examples all day long because I have in fact been surrounded by the saints of God for a long, long time.
Agreed 100% with you King! My only thought would be that what we do as Christians in helping others has no effect on our "standing" as SAINTS of God. We are saints because of our choice for Christ.
Mother Theresa was wonderful and probably did more for people than anyone else ever will. She is in the same category as Annie Armstrong who died for the people of China. Both are saints of God because of their faith in Christ.