Amen I have met some believing themselves saved who live for the devil...
How Does One Keep The Sabbath And Does It Apply To The New Covenant
- Thread starter Brother Paul
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Amen I have met some believing themselves saved who live for the devil...
I disagree with how you phrased it, I do not believe Jesus did the opposite of anything God said and I do not think you do either, but I think I understand what your trying to communicate. Your main point is that there is no command that we should worship in church on the Sabbath day, is that correct? What do you think that implies? Does that mean the Sabbath does not need to be kept Holy? Is the 7th day no longer Holy? (Gen 2:2).
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Jesus did work on the Sabbath "according to the Pharasees" ..
Jesus claimed He was God, to which they were going to stone Him ..
Jesus claimed no foods are "unclean" ..
Jesus ate and drank with sinners ..
Jesus' Apostles did not wash their hands in the purifying manner required ..
but yet .. these were misinterpretations and traditions that Jesus did not follow ..
yes the Sabbath is the 7th day and is a commandment ..
just like above, men have added their traditions on top ..
so holy means exactly what your heart tells you it means ..
we are a law unto ourselves, and our conscious bears witness if we are fudging ..
to some, it may mean to go to church, to others, no ..
sin that is enumerated aside .. if to you something is sin and you do it .. you did sin ..
Jam 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
God Bless you ..
I like what you said here. It still does not answer the question though why God made the 7th day Holy (Gen 2:2). But kudos for attempting to answer!
I am not sure what answer you are looking for but I will give you the Bible answer my friend.
Hebrews 4:3-4
"Although the works were finished from the foundation of the world......
And God rested on the seventh day from all His works".
I believe that God created us to be His intimate companions and enjoy the finished work of creation in all of its glory. There was nothing lacking in God's creation and in His desire that we enter the rest possible only in a relationship with Him.
His understanding of what was acceptable for Sabbath was not what had always been understood and taught. Yes of course the the Sabbath is Holy, like it was for Him to cease and desist from creating, the members of the Covenant at Horeb were also to cease from working and rest (When God makes something Holy it is...He has made the New Covenant, me, and hopefully you Holy as well) but in the way you would define this in practice no, that is not what God made Holy...no command to gather for corporate worship on the 7th day in a synagogue, tabernacle, temple, or church also no commandment not to...one can honor God either way, but for those in Christ it is perpetually the Sabbath. He Himself IS our Sabbath and we are in Him.
Also do not forget the days of the week changed in Exodus 12. That day became a new 1st day of a new first month. One cannot even be sure the 7th day God ceased from His work and the "7th day Sabbath" of the Israelites are the same day...but the principle (God's willful purpose) is the same...I equate this with the sacrificial lamb which began as one lamb per person, then one lamb per household, then one lamb for the nation, then the final lamb for the sins of the whole world (the details changed but the purpose, the principle stayed the same).
Amen. Any relationship is strengthened by the increase in time spent with your companion. This is the beauty about the Sabbath day. When something is Holy, it is because it is entering the very presence of God (Exo 3:5). Gen 2:2 is the only place in the bible when the Creator declares a segment of time as Holy. That time is literally filled with the Creators presence. Therefore, the majesty of the Sabbath is it is a time when God and man set a whole 24 hour period aside just for each other. Yes worship every day, die daily as Paul says. But we need more than this, we need to have this time just for God, on His time. It is truly a delight.
No, we can be sure. The weekly cycles are still in tact since the dawn of creation. http://www.british-israel.ca/weekly_cycle.htm
The difference is the sacrificial system was inaugurated after sin, not before sin. The 7th day was made Holy prior to sin (Gen 2:2), and was made for man (mark 2:27) by Jesus Himself (Luke 6:5). Therefore, the Sabbath is not a just a "type" that sees its fulfillment at the cross.
The Shabbat (which was instituted at the time of the Exodus, hence also after sin) was made for man not man for the shabbat...and God's shaw-bath (His ceasing) of Genesis 2 is something separate, not having anything to do with man (just read it objectively)...it was about God and what He did...Genesis 2 does not recommend or instruct man in anything, you need to stop confusing the two. God gave a rest to man after the similitude of that which He did, but this came after the fall.
Do you agree then that we are nowhere commanded to gather together on the 7th day for corporate worship in a church, synagogue, etc.? I realize IYO you believe this would be the most appropriate day, and I am fine with that, but that is not the same thing. Do you agree that neither the 7th day or the 1st day is "THE" day God has commanded and that either is acceptable to God?
brother Paul
Brother Paul,
So Jesus created the Sabbath for man (aka humanity) in Exodus?
I like what Matthew Henry commentary connotates:
The sabbath is a sacred and Divine institution; a privilege and benefit, not a task and drudgery. God never designed it to be a burden to us, therefore we must not make it so to ourselves. The sabbath was instituted for the good of mankind, as living in society, having many wants and troubles, preparing for a state of happiness or misery. Man was not made for the sabbath, as if his keeping it could be of service to God, nor was he commanded to keep it outward observances to his real hurt. Every observance respecting it, is to be interpreted by the rule of mercy. --Matthew Henry Concise Bible Commentary.
I agree that nowhere are we commanded to gather together in corporate worship any day of the week. But we are counseled to do the following acts of worship:
Isa 58:
3 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
4 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
I also agree that worship any day of the week is acceptable to God. But it is not acceptable to replace another day with the day God instituted.
God Bless,
MoG
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You say, "I also agree that worship any day of the week is acceptable to God. But it is not acceptable to replace another day with the day God instituted." The day God instituted for what? What are you trying to imply? You seem to indicate this is THE day God instituted for worship and that Christians "replaced" the 7th day Sabbath with 1st day gathering? Not so...this was instituted by God through the Apostles who were obeying the Christ.
I agree with the scriptures you posted from Isaiah 58, and God promised Israel and Judah that if they did this He would be their rearguard (no harm would come to them) but like Israel a couple of centuries earlier (though still after Isaiah) Judah also committed spiritual adultery and God lifted His hand of protection and they were ransacked. Actually their 70 year captivity was because they had not honored His Sabbath years for 490 years...they suffered 1 year of captivity for each of the 70 Sabbath years they desolated. Now this is not to say it is not wonderful to honor God on the 7th day (I honor Him on all days).
I have nothing against the physical earthly Sabbath day (God forbid)...it is just that keeping the 7th day Sabbath no longer applies to those born into His eternal rest (shabbat)...He also designed this eternal rest (the one that remained that we were to enter into) that He has by His grace allowed us who are in Christ to partake of. We have ceased/desisted (shaw-bath) from our works. Period!
Galatians 2…Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (not even our own faith), even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God (notice not by faith IN the Son of God), who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
In His love
brother Paul
I agree with the scriptures you posted from Isaiah 58, and God promised Israel and Judah that if they did this He would be their rearguard (no harm would come to them) but like Israel a couple of centuries earlier (though still after Isaiah) Judah also committed spiritual adultery and God lifted His hand of protection and they were ransacked. Actually their 70 year captivity was because they had not honored His Sabbath years for 490 years...they suffered 1 year of captivity for each of the 70 Sabbath years they desolated. Now this is not to say it is not wonderful to honor God on the 7th day (I honor Him on all days).
I have nothing against the physical earthly Sabbath day (God forbid)...it is just that keeping the 7th day Sabbath no longer applies to those born into His eternal rest (shabbat)...He also designed this eternal rest (the one that remained that we were to enter into) that He has by His grace allowed us who are in Christ to partake of. We have ceased/desisted (shaw-bath) from our works. Period!
Galatians 2…Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (not even our own faith), even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God (notice not by faith IN the Son of God), who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
In His love
brother Paul
Good morning Brother Paul,
You said "Christians "replaced" the 7th day Sabbath with 1st day gathering? Not so...this was instituted by God through the Apostles who were obeying the Christ."
I do not believe it was merely placed replaced because of 1st day gathering. As we already discussed that the Sabbath and Sunday during the 2nd 3rd and 4th centuries was being kept by the same Christians. But Sunday was not instituted as the Lords day until the declaration of the Pope, the catalyst of course being the Sunday law decree issued by Emperor Constantine.
So your saying God "changed" the Sabbath to the first days through the Apostles? And where in scripture do you see this explicit command?
God Bless my friend,
MoG
First there is no command, as I have pointed out...but as for "But Sunday was not instituted as the Lords day until the declaration of the Pope...though another issue we could discuss, since the beginning of the church and in the early church fathers, long before the 4th century, "the Lord's day" was always the 1st (which is also an 8th) day. !st days are very significant all through the OT (always representing new beginnings, redemption, restoration, liberation, etc.,)
Hi Abdicate,
Thank you for the quote. What do you think that implies about the law?
Blessings,
MoG
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The law given to Moses was part of the old creation, we are of the new creation in Christ Jesus. We keep the first day, a day of new beginnings, restoration, redemption, liberation...
John 20:19
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 16:2
Revelation 1:10 the only mention of "the Lord's day" written by John. The adjective kyriake ("Lord's") often elided its noun, as in the neuter kyriakon for "Lord's [assembly]", the predecessor of the word “congregation or ekkelsia); the noun was to be supplied by context.’’
The Epistle of Barnabas (around 100 A.D. all the disciples of the Apostles still alive), the writer most likely being a Jewish believer in Messiah around 100 A.D., we see reflected an early tradition of the followers of “the Way” which says, “we also worship on the first day, which is the eighth day“! The Jewish believers observed both. In 15:6-8 he says, “We keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead"
The Didache 14:1 (also around 100 A.D.) says “14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.” Which the Bible shows was the 1st day (the day they gathered to break bread)
Ignatius of Turkey (110 A.D. a disciple of John who wrote Revelation, and successor of Peter in Antioch, sat under his teaching 2 years) "If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ” and also “And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days…(Epistle to the Magnesians chpt. 9)
In his letter to the Trajians here is what he was taught by John and Peter “ During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead”
Justin Martyr, First Apology, chpt. 67, (around 130 A.D. only 30 years after John’s death though Justin was disciple of the Palestinian Bishops after James) writes regarding our gathering together that it was on “the first day after the Sabbath, remaining first of all days, called however the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remaining the first“.
“through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, our Lord Jesus Christ… For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first". (Justin, Dialogue 41:4)
“ ...those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God.” (Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, 150-165 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, page 207)
Clement of Alexandria (170 A.D. in Egypt) says, “He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind . . . glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself. “
Bardesanes of Syria (his apologetic on “On Fate” 180 A.D.) says “Wherever we are, we are all called after the one name of Christ Christians. On one day, the first of the week, we assemble ourselves together .”
Cyprian (Carthage North Africa around 230 A.D.) Epistle 58, sec. IV tells us “The eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's Day.”
Athanasius (325 A.D. of Greece) "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).
So those of the churches founded by Apostles, and long before any popes, no matter where they founded them and appointed their Apostolically instructed leaders, they all were instructed (by the Apostles or their chosen students) this same consistent doctrine. The Lord's day is the day Christ rose from the dead and that is the day upon which we gather to sing psalms, break bread, and read from the writings for as long as daylight permitted.
In His love
brother Paul
I knew I couldn't write it all here, so I made my own thread on this subject: http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/law-and-death.37321/
In a nutshell, we're DEAD with Christ so there's no law. No more no less. No law, no way to break it. BUT we're also made alive with Christ and we have to deal with this unregenerated flesh and mind. Paul says not to use our freedom as a cloak for sin. If we don't deal with our sins we'll end up like Lot - still saved - but vexed, meaning no peace. Just my thoughts.
P.S. Take note that the Law was never to be accepted. It was only in the arrogance of the Israelites that the Law of God was accepted, along with all the punishments. The Law is impossible to keep, period. It's is made that way on purpose. God wanted Israel (and thereby us) to rely on Him 100% and we can't do that when we believe we can keep any law. From the Exodus to the day the Law was given, no one died because of sin, though they murmured and turns against God and Moses. The moment Moses read into their ears the Law of God they said in their arrogance "We can keep it all" and as soon as Moses was gone, they made a golden calf, worshiped it and 3000 died. Before the law was given to them, they never wanted to make an idol! Now when the Holy Spirit was given 3000 got saved! Truly the law kills and the Spirit gives life. This is why I use Paul's only recorded sermon in my signature line.