How Does One Keep The Sabbath And Does It Apply To The New Covenant

I knew I couldn't write it all here, so I made my own thread on this subject: http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/law-and-death.37321/

In a nutshell, we're DEAD with Christ so there's no law. No more no less. No law, no way to break it. BUT we're also made alive with Christ and we have to deal with this unregenerated flesh and mind. Paul says not to use our freedom as a cloak for sin. If we don't deal with our sins we'll end up like Lot - still saved - but vexed, meaning no peace. Just my thoughts. :)

This is true...the law is no longer binding on those reckoned dead in Christ.
 
I knew I couldn't write it all here, so I made my own thread on this subject: http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/law-and-death.37321/

In a nutshell, we're DEAD with Christ so there's no law. No more no less. No law, no way to break it. BUT we're also made alive with Christ and we have to deal with this unregenerated flesh and mind. Paul says not to use our freedom as a cloak for sin. If we don't deal with our sins we'll end up like Lot - still saved - but vexed, meaning no peace. Just my thoughts. :)

Thanks Abdicate,

Read your post and I understand your analogies. Question, if there is no law, why did Paul say in Rom 7:25, "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin?"

God Bless,
MoG
 
Law of God

Joshua 24:26 (KJV) And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that [was] by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Nehemiah 8:8 (KJV) So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

Romans 7:22 (KJV) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 8:7 (KJV) Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All these verses contain that phrase and in the OT that word is Torah and not just the first five books of the Bible but God's teaching and instructions. Just because we are dead to the law and the punishments for not obeying them, we are free from all condemnation. Plain and simple.
 
P.S. The word of God is our owner's manual, but unlike a car, we have access to the Author of the manuel and the Designer! Though I could go 500mph down the highway, should I? We're still subject to the laws of physics and other things that can attack our bodies, however there are occasions in the scriptures where we are even unbound by those laws. :)
 
Law of God

Joshua 24:26 (KJV) And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that [was] by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Nehemiah 8:8 (KJV) So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

Romans 7:22 (KJV) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 8:7 (KJV) Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All these verses contain that phrase and in the OT that word is Torah and not just the first five books of the Bible but God's teaching and instructions. Just because we are dead to the law and the punishments for not obeying them, we are free from all condemnation. Plain and simple.

Thank you brother Abdicate,

I agree 100%. We are free from the condemnation of the law in accordance with our confession (1 John 1:9). But how are we free from the condemnation? Is it because the law is gone?
 
Exactly... who is going to accuse us? Jesus died for everything we've ever done, past, present and future. The only accuser is the one who bears that name - Satan - Hebrew for The Accuser. If the Judge is our Lawyer, how can the Prosecution do anything? :)
 
Exactly... who is going to accuse us? Jesus died for everything we've ever done, past, present and future. The only accuser is the one who bears that name - Satan - Hebrew for The Accuser. If the Judge is our Lawyer, how can the Prosecution do anything? :)

Amen. But the moment we sin (that is we transgress Gods law (1 John 3:4)) and fail it confess it, the accuser gains power and as scripture says we crucify the Lord afresh (Heb 6:6). Christ is not the minister of sin (Gal 2:17). But the law is not the problem for the Law is good and Holy (Rom 7:12) and stands fast forever (Luke 16:17, Psalms 111:7-8).

In fact the moral law, that is God's commandments, transcribe His character. That is, His law and the Law Giver (God) have the same characteristics according to scripture. This is why Jesus is a fulfillment of that law, the Word made flesh (John 1:14). If you have seen Jesus, you had seen the Father (John 14:9). Therefore, the law is not destroyed/abolished (Matt 5:17) but sin itself has been nailed to the cross (Col 2:14).

God Bless,
MoG
 
Apples and oranges :) We are dead to sin. Period. Right? Right :) Anything we do in this life afterwards goes towards our peace of mind, our thanks to God for what He did for us, and rewards. We cannot keep the law, neither before nor after salvation, only Jesus could do that. The accuser can only rob us of our joy and peace, but not our salvation. God loved us before we accepted His gift from the foundation of the world. God is outside of time so there's not past or future, only now. And the kicker is, we're already seated in the heavenlies! Glory to God! We're just waiting for time to catch up so we can have our new bodies and be free even then from the effects of sin.
 
Apples and oranges :) We are dead to sin. Period. Right? Right :) Anything we do in this life afterwards goes towards our peace of mind, our thanks to God for what He did for us, and rewards. We cannot keep the law, neither before nor after salvation, only Jesus could do that. The accuser can only rob us of our joy and peace, but not our salvation. God loved us before we accepted His gift from the foundation of the world. God is outside of time so there's not past or future, only now. And the kicker is, we're already seated in the heavenlies! Glory to God! We're just waiting for time to catch up so we can have our new bodies and be free even then from the effects of sin.

Good morning again Abdicate:),

We cannot establish the Law on our own, but if we walk after the spirit, we cannot sin-- that is we cannot break the law (1 John 3:9). Therefore when we sin, we are not walking after the spirit but after the flesh. How do we walk after the spirit? We get clean through the word (John 15:3). We connect to Christ and abide in Him for with out Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). We die daily (1 Cor 15:31). This is the sanctification process and it last a lifetime. But I dare not say that it is OK to break His commandments (for that person is not safe to bring to the harmony of Heaven) but if we do sin we have an intercessor (Heb 4:16)--for now.

God Bless,
MoG
 
Apples and oranges :) We are dead to sin. Period. Right? Right :) Anything we do in this life afterwards goes towards our peace of mind, our thanks to God for what He did for us, and rewards. We cannot keep the law, neither before nor after salvation, only Jesus could do that. The accuser can only rob us of our joy and peace, but not our salvation. God loved us before we accepted His gift from the foundation of the world. God is outside of time so there's not past or future, only now. And the kicker is, we're already seated in the heavenlies! Glory to God! We're just waiting for time to catch up so we can have our new bodies and be free even then from the effects of sin.
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We are indeed dead to sin if we don't sin. How do we justify this: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which
are are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh...For to be carnally minded is death...". The only way those scriptures can apply to the wholeChurch, is if we are all the "...little children..." to whom John wrote. Children have no obligation to do anything, no works, except to know that they are loved and that their sins have been forgiven: "...because your sins have been forgiven for His name's sake...". If you are in that "age bracket", so to speak, then yes. Your sins are automatically forgiven,
and you will be confessing them when you get old enough to understand. But most in this forum are speaking as if they were a little older: as young men who know how to work: "...for the work of the ministry...".
 
Before I came to Christ sin was my lifestyle now I no longer practice sin...sin still dwells in me but I do not practice it (as I am sure is the case with both of you)....should we sin it is always the exception not the rule...
 
Before I came to Christ sin was my lifestyle now I no longer practice sin...sin still dwells in me but I do not practice it (as I am sure is the case with both of you)....should we sin it is always the exception not the rule...
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That was the lifestyle of ALL men. Sin still dwell in the flesh, but only in the flesh. It does not dwell (have its habitation) in those who have received and obeyed the Gospel. When a man believes, faith will eventually reach the soul (mind) and the soul (mind) will be transformed. Once that happens, we will conform our words to scripture and use our tongue to govern our
bodies (James 3). The body will obey whoever governs the tongue (soul/mind).
 
What do you know of the concept of Theosis? That once we are born eternal and made partakers of the Divine nature, that the new birth and process of conformance to the image of Christ makes us beni-elohim....? If so and since we then walk in two realms and have authority (though delegated) in two realms why do you suppose most Christians still focus on the temporal nature and not the divine? The whole of creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God...now that Christ won it back should we not take dominion over this realm in His name? This has very much to do with the divine nature...

I just think we should engage in prayer war against the principalities that govern our leaders and cities, pray for our neighborhoods declaring His authority over them, speaking to the problem and using the sword pro-actively as well as engaging in service, and though I know many of us do just that, many Christians seem to have no idea...how can we reach our own and get them active...(for we wrestle not against flesh and blood)...

They do not understand that now we have been made gods, not The Eternal Deity, but elohim none the less. So how should we live this here and now? What are your thoughts?
 
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We are indeed dead to sin if we don't sin. How do we justify this: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which
are are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh...For to be carnally minded is death...". The only way those scriptures can apply to the wholeChurch, is if we are all the "...little children..." to whom John wrote. Children have no obligation to do anything, no works, except to know that they are loved and that their sins have been forgiven: "...because your sins have been forgiven for His name's sake...". If you are in that "age bracket", so to speak, then yes. Your sins are automatically forgiven,
and you will be confessing them when you get old enough to understand. But most in this forum are speaking as if they were a little older: as young men who know how to work: "...for the work of the ministry...".
"Little children" refers to the growth of the believer in grace and knowledge, it does not change the gospel nor change the rules of obedience, which is always the obedience of faith working by love. Now anyone who claims they "don't sin" -lol is just deceived and in need of repentance from their hypocrisy. But in Him we have no sin and cannot sin. I am sinless in Christ, yet I am the chief of sinners. Great is the mystery of godliness.
"young men" have overcome the accuser-satan the devil, by the truth of the gospel.
"fathers" are those who "known Him from the beginning" see the eternal Word as Christ and understand the eternal mystery that is hidden in Christ.
 
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SDA doctrine clearly states…

"Only those who keep the Sabbath will be saved in the last days." (Medical Ministry, p.123)

"Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions.” (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 588. also Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, p. 405)

So from Ignatius (student of John and Peter), Polycarp (student of John), Clement of Rome (student of Paul and Peter), and Justin (student of the Palestinian Bishops after James)…the entire church was led astray

If true then we are therefore saved by grace through faith, plus keeping the 7th day Sabbath…or so they claim, but the problem is they themselves do not keep the 7th day Sabbath as God commanded so we cannot obey them or follow their inadequate way…so who then can be saved?
 
SDA doctrine clearly states…

"Only those who keep the Sabbath will be saved in the last days." (Medical Ministry, p.123)

"Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions.” (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 588. also Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, p. 405)

So from Ignatius (student of John and Peter), Polycarp (student of John), Clement of Rome (student of Paul and Peter), and Justin (student of the Palestinian Bishops after James)…the entire church was led astray

If true then we are therefore saved by grace through faith, plus keeping the 7th day Sabbath…or so they claim, but the problem is they themselves do not keep the 7th day Sabbath as God commanded so we cannot obey them or follow their inadequate way…so who then can be saved?

First "quote" is totally erroneous and dishonest. Medical Missionary page 123 . Those words were never penned by Mrs. White.

Let me state this clearly. If any Sunday worshiper died today in Christ, they are going to heaven. But what happens today is not the same what happens in the last days. Why do I say that, because I do not believe there will be one honest soul worshiping on Sunday just prior to Jesus coming. Why, because they understand the significance of the events. To understand this, we have to understand what the bible says about future events. Now we are jumping into the eschatological (things yet future) part of the message and it requires context. If we are going to go there, let me first address your previous post on Sunday sacredness aka the "Christian Sabbath" and the quotes of the "church fathers." Then we will go into things yet future if you prefer. Will report later. God Bless.
 
First "quote" is totally erroneous and dishonest. Medical Missionary page 123 . Those words were never penned by Mrs. White.

No I isn’t because I never said it was a quote of E.G. White’s…

Let me state this clearly. If any Sunday worshiper died today in Christ, they are going to heaven. But what happens today is not the same what happens in the last days. Why do I say that, because I do not believe there will be one honest soul worshiping on Sunday just prior to Jesus coming.

This is the Last Days. And though I could understand your sentiment if I believed in a pre-Trib position I see living believers together with the dead in Christ being caught up at the coming (the parousia)…


Why, because they understand the significance of the events. To understand this, we have to understand what the bible says about future events. Now we are jumping into the eschatological (things yet future) part of the message and it requires context. If we are going to go there, let me first address your previous post on Sunday sacredness aka the "Christian Sabbath" and the quotes of the "church fathers." Then we will go into things yet future if you prefer. Will report later. God Bless.

Stop there. Sunday or the day of the Sun has Zero, Zilch, nada to do with gathering on the 1st day (which by mere coincidence of the Empire at the time being Roman, those who thought in non-Hebrew Latin terms called it that). The 7th day Sabbath was not ever replaced (except by law at the time of Constantine…but being that going to church or synagogue on that day was never God’s law it really doesn’t matter)….its meaning was given new significance in Christ. The “Christian Sabbath” is a secular legal term of the post-Christ Roman Empire…Christ IS the New Creation and is the Sabbath. We have entered God’s rest in Him.
 
The law given to Moses was part of the old creation, we are of the new creation in Christ Jesus. We keep the first day, a day of new beginnings, restoration, redemption, liberation...

John 20:19

Acts 20:7

1 Corinthians 16:2

Revelation 1:10 the only mention of "the Lord's day" written by John. The adjective kyriake ("Lord's") often elided its noun, as in the neuter kyriakon for "Lord's [assembly]", the predecessor of the word “congregation or ekkelsia); the noun was to be supplied by context.’’

The Epistle of Barnabas (around 100 A.D. all the disciples of the Apostles still alive), the writer most likely being a Jewish believer in Messiah around 100 A.D., we see reflected an early tradition of the followers of “the Way” which says, “we also worship on the first day, which is the eighth day“! The Jewish believers observed both. In 15:6-8 he says, “We keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead"

The Didache 14:1 (also around 100 A.D.) says “14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.” Which the Bible shows was the 1st day (the day they gathered to break bread)

Ignatius of Turkey (110 A.D. a disciple of John who wrote Revelation, and successor of Peter in Antioch, sat under his teaching 2 years) "If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ” and also “And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days…(Epistle to the Magnesians chpt. 9)

In his letter to the Trajians here is what he was taught by John and Peter “ During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead

Justin Martyr, First Apology, chpt. 67, (around 130 A.D. only 30 years after John’s death though Justin was disciple of the Palestinian Bishops after James) writes regarding our gathering together that it was on “the first day after the Sabbath, remaining first of all days, called however the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remaining the first“.

through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, our Lord Jesus Christ… For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first". (Justin, Dialogue 41:4)

...those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God.” (Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, 150-165 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, page 207)

Clement of Alexandria (170 A.D. in Egypt) says, “He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind . . . glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself. “

Bardesanes of Syria (his apologetic on “On Fate” 180 A.D.) says “Wherever we are, we are all called after the one name of Christ Christians. On one day, the first of the week, we assemble ourselves together .”

Cyprian (Carthage North Africa around 230 A.D.) Epistle 58, sec. IV tells us “The eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's Day.”

Athanasius (325 A.D. of Greece) "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

So those of the churches founded by Apostles, and long before any popes, no matter where they founded them and appointed their Apostolically instructed leaders, they all were instructed (by the Apostles or their chosen students) this same consistent doctrine. The Lord's day is the day Christ rose from the dead and that is the day upon which we gather to sing psalms, break bread, and read from the writings for as long as daylight permitted.

In His love

brother Paul


Brother Paul,

This post of yours (see above) was addressing my challenge concerning the Sunday Sacredness sometimes referred to as the "Lords Day." I simply inquired where in the bible did God institute the Sunday Sacredness in place of the 7th day Sabbath, and you provided the following verses: John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1 cor 16:2 and alluded to Rev 1:10. The implication, of course, is that they (the apostles and Christian laity) gathered for worship on the first day of the week in these verses;therefore intimating that there was a sacred day (Sunday) in scripture to worship that celebrates the resurrection. You also provided quotes from the "church fathers" beginning in the second century as additional evidence of this point.

Before I address the matter, I will first state plainly, from a personal perspective, that it will take more then these verses for me to change from a thus saith the Lord (something stated explicitly as noted in Exo 20:8-11) and accept the implicit idea that God change his Holy day to Sunday. Not knocking anyone that does, but for me I need something more concrete. I do not think God can fault me for that being that He holds His word is the highest regard. With that said I want to continue to state my position in Christian love and do not wish to step on anyone's toes.

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


If the intimation is that them meeting together is evidence of worship, let us notice why they are meeting together. We know this is right after Jesus was killed. It says, the first day of the week, they (the apostles) assembled for "fear of the Jews." They were so afraid even that they locked the doors . Clearly they were not meeting for worship.

Now if the implication is that Jesus visited them in the upper room on the 1s day, hence expressing divine approval, well scripture actually tells us he visited them many days for several weeks (Acts 1:3) before ascending to heaven in (Acts 1:2).

Acts 20:7:
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Few points here. Paul was preaching ready to depart on the morrow and he continued his speech until midnight. The facts are that he was preaching at midnight and on the morrow he was to depart. It is important to note that this was done according to God's time found in Gen 1:5 where the day begins at evening and according to Jewish custom. Therefor, the 1st day spoken here is not Sunday but in fact Saturday night! In fact, some bible versions like the Good News Bible translate it like this, "On Saturday[a] evening we gathered together for the fellowship meal. Paul spoke to the people and kept on speaking until midnight, since he was going to leave the next day. "

The final point on this verse is that Paul would pick up and leave on the next day (Sunday!). So not only did they fellowship Saturday night, he was traveling on Sunday! Quite the opposite of what you would expect if Sunday was sacred.



1 cor 16:2:
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


The idea intimated here I suppose is that there worshiping together or having church, on Sunday and collecting money. Well we already know that they were gathering something for the Saints. That is there was a famine (Acts 11:27-29) and Paul was requesting that they lay something up in storage for the Saints effected by the famine ( cor 16:1, Acts 11:30). On the onset, it is probably safe to assume they were laying up food, not money, for the brethren.

The other point is that this may not have been in a corporate setting at all but individually, in their homes. The NASB translates it like this "On the first day of every week each one of you is to [a]put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come." The Weymouth version says " On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home..."


We now come to Rev 1:10. Rev 1:10 in itself makes no intimation as to what the Lords day is. For that I think we can just see what the Lord Himself says the "Lords day" is: Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath” Pretty clear to me that the Lord's day can only be the Sabbath day.


In regards to the proponents of Sunday Sacredness during the first, second, and third centuries, I can only say that we cannot put that over the word of God. Why? "Cursed is the man who makes flesh His arm" Jer 17:5. Second, we know from scripture there is to be a fallen away, and that there were antichrist, even in apostolic days. (1 John 2:18).

This is a lot of light so all I can say is be careful! Christians who advocated Sunday worship who are convicted of the Biblical evidence just provided do either one of two things at this point. They either resist and say any day is OK and therefore I will just keep worshiping on Sunday. Or they simply choose to worship on the biblical Sabbath simply because God said it. But if you reject conviction, just remember that the heart gets that much harder against the truth. The only unpardonable sin is blaspheming the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit). Jesus says "Walk in the light while you have it, lest the darkness comes upon you." And in another place Paul rights, "For this cause , God shall send them strong delusion that they shall believe a lie"

However, if you are not convicted, so be it. I only put that out there for your own safety. This is not just any discussion, we are talking about Gods word. I always take it serious.

God Bless you,
MoG!
 
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