Sorry, but I don't buy into your interpretation. It's too riddled with slight-of-hand assertions based upon the weaknesses of English translations.
Just what I'm seeing in this.
MM
Gnosticism...Again!
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
-
- Tags
- gnosticism sophia wisdom
Sorry, but I don't buy into your interpretation. It's too riddled with slight-of-hand assertions based upon the weaknesses of English translations.
Just what I'm seeing in this.
MM
You were asking about Sophia, obviously a female, and if you turn to Proverbs chapter 8 you will see that wisdom is female.
I did not know the term Sophia is Greek for "wisdom." What have I got into?
en.wikipedia.org
Gnosticism - Wikipedia
The wisdom in proverbs is NOT Jesus!
I think the same now I have done a little reading, although the New Testament tells us Jesus is wisdom but I am thinking wisdom in Proverbs is something different. How about you educate me please.?
Last edited:
The wisdom in proverbs stated God created her, but bible states jesus was and is eternal!
I agree !!!!
I am not Yashua but I will try to educate you.
The group which wishes this passage is about Jesus is the Jehovah’s Witness, because they try to use this as a proof-text that Jesus is a created being. Specifically, they use 8:23, which has "Wisdom" (they say Jesus) saying, I was fashioned from eternity."
This is truly worse that a very weak argument!!!
So then, the writer of Proverbs is using a figure of speech in which he personifies the trait "wisdom."
A linguistic argument, in case you need one. In Proverbs 8:22, when the "speaker" says "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old." the word "me" is feminine in the Hebrew.
Please notice that this makes perfect sense if "Wisdom" is a personification of the wisdom of God, but it does not make sense if it is a reference to Jesus.
I did not know the term Sophia is Greek for "wisdom." What have I got into?
Gnosticism - Wikipedia
You have entered the area of FALSE teaching.
The bottom line truth is that In fact, no one by the name of Sophia is even mentioned in the Bible. While relying heavily on the book of Proverbs and verses that evangelicals point to as evidence for the Incarnation, adherents to the Sophia goddess movement are gaining numbers by the thousands as conferences are held, books are published, and, most profane of all, worship services for Sophia in the name of Jesus Christ are held each year across the United States and around the world.
The focus of the argument says that towards the end of the Old Testament, specifically in Proverbs, the feminine noun for “wisdom” (chokmah in Hebrew) was personified. By definition, personification is "the attribution of a personal nature or character to inanimate objects or abstract notions, such as rhetorical figure."
Clearly, no reader of Scripture can say personification does not occur. Rather, the astute reader will exegete, or draw out from the text, in accordance with good Bible study methods.
People have done this for as long as we can look back. For example ships are called "she" and the helmsman is to hold "her" steady. This is not to be taken literal. None of us thinks a ship is an actual woman. Then again these days people can't seem to define what a woman is.
I agree, thank you.
I agree, thank you.
I usually get a LOVE offering in cases like this! You can do that by texting BR549 and asking for Junior!
Well, from a simplistic standpoint, yes. It would seem that Wisdom is a female, but the question is, is that what the inspired writer was trying to convey? Most call the Church a she, even though it is written:
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
No marriage in Heaven. If I were to assume from that there is no gender distinctions in Heaven, would that be right or wrong? Does it really matter? If so, why?
Galatians 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
This and much more shows how futile it is for anyone to pretend that they know more than they do when saying "Wisdom is this....," and "Wisdom is that...." Inferences, especially in English translations, are suspect at best.
MM
Anthropomorphism = the attribution of human characteristics, emotions, and behaviors to animals or other non-human things (including objects, plants, and supernatural beings).
As Paul Harvey used to say....Now the rest of the story is........
Just in case everyone else DOES NOT know.....The Jehovah Witnesses use Wisdom of Proverbs 8 as a Female to argue against Jesus as the Creator. In a Watch Tower tract entitled Should You Believe in the Trinity?---- the following verses from the "THEIR" (NWT) Bible are strung together:
1. Colossians 1:15, which calls Christ “the first-born of all creation.”
2. Revelation 3:14, which speaks of Christ as “the beginning of God’s creation.”
3. Several verses from Proverbs 8, one of which speaks of how “Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the
oldest of his works” (NWT).
4. 1 Corinthians 8:6, where the italicizing in the tract shows the Jehovah’s Witnesses interpreta-tion that God the Father created
Christ, who then created the world: “There is one God, the Father, from whom are all things,…and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.”
They argue that because the speaker in Proverbs 8 is described in the same terms as are used for Christ elsewhere, that speaker, therefore, must be Christ. Since the speaker in the Proverbs 8 passage speaks of being “brought forth” (vv. 24–25 esv), moreover, this same Christ must be a created being and not an eternal member of the Trinity. Lest we think that the Jehovah’s Witnesses thought this up on their own, they incorrectly adduce “Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era” as having also believed that the speaker in Proverbs 8 is really Christ. Indeed, the view that the speaker of Proverbs 8 is Christ continues to make the rounds in some evangelical circles.
You see......this is how denying the Trinity then translates in a deceptive way of also denying the DIETY of Jesus the Christ.
I would advise everyone to pay particular attention to the warnings given in verse eight.
(8) Be sure you are not led away by the teaching of those who have nothing worth saying and only plan to deceive you. (The JW's are only one of many cults) That teaching is not from Christ. It is only human tradition and comes from the powers that influence this world.
(9) I say this because all of God lives in Christ fully, even in his life on earth.
(10) And because you belong to Christ you are complete, having everything you need. Christ is ruler over every other power and authority.
Colossians 2:8-10 ERV
Yes sir. That is excellent advice. Not only the JW's, but Mormons and Oneness and KJV only are just a few.
It should also be said that a false teacher does not have to have a denominational title or affiliation.
Last edited:
The fixation by some in these threads that I've been seeing, against the use of the term "person" in relation to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit seems to be rooted in the term you brought forth above when addressing 'anthropomorphism'. What I'm suggesting is that, dare I use the term "person" in relation to the Son, or to our Heavenly Father, or to Holy Spirit, that doesn't mean that I'm attributing humanity to our Father, or the Son or Holy Spirit. We are created in their likeness. So, it again seems reasonable to say that when we speak of the 'Person of Christ Jesus', or 'the Person of our Heavenly Father', or 'the Person Holy Spirit', that speaks of the likeness, not any absolute attribution by way of our forcing upon God the attributes and likeness of mankind, but rather then other way around. We are His likeness. That is the proper direction of understanding that should be understood. We are the likeness/image of our Heavenly Father, the likeness/image of the Son, and the likeness/image of Holy Spirit.
If that bothers some, well, I'll just have to call them out onto the carpet to explain how such use, of what's actually written in the word of God, is in error. Yes, English translation have their degree of weaknesses in relation to the original languages, but it would be futile for me to use Hebrew and/or Greek words when writing to y'all. Herein you may now understand my meaning if and when I address the Person of our Heavenly Father, the Person of Christ Yahshua, and/or the Person of Holy Spirit. This way there's nothing worthwhile to get bent out of shape over.
As Major pointed out, the Watchtower is utterly false in so many of its teachings, and is therefore a tragic departure from the original languages of the Bible. The evolutionary teachings of that organization clearly betrays its lack of continuity and cohesion to sound rules for interpretation.
MM
You address what you think is 'obvious'. The scriptures don't say Wisdom is "female" in the human sense of the word. You said that.
Therein is the difference. You cannot speak experientially what 'she' actually means in relation to those in the spiritual realm. You've never been there and experienced the differences. You are arguing purely from the nearly blind (through a glass darkly....remember?), human perspective, superimposing upon the spiritual realm that of which you have little to no understanding as it relates to that place and those personages. We are created in their 'likeness' (Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.).
No human man or woman on this earth can legitimately superimpose upon Heavenly "persons" the attributes of the physical in an absolute sense, and think that the comparison is as concrete as one would think in this realm, especially anyone who has never traversed into the other.
MM
Hey MM. Great post! I congratulate you on your ability to state your case so elequently.
The question I think as to why anyone would refuse to accept the word "Person" when referring to the Trinity can only be one of two reason.
1. They do not accept the Trinity as a Bible doctrine.
2. They do not accept the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now there are at least 9 religious faiths which openly deny the Trinity and or deny the DEITY of Jesus Christ.
1. Mormons.
2. Jehovah Witnesses.
3. Oneness Pentecostals.
4. Christian Science
5. Philadelphia Church of God, Global Church of God, United Church of God = Armstrongs.
6. Christadelphians
7. Unification Church = Founded By: Sun Myung Moon, 1954.
8. Universalists.
9. Scientology = Not really a faith but a bunch of rich people with no brains and too much money.
Now I do not know which of these are those who are posting here belong to that refuse to accept the word PERSON in describing the Trinity, but if I had to choose, I would say the JW'S - Oneness Pentecostal.
I say that not to accuse anyone at all, but only to say that I can not think of any reason whatsoever to reject the word PERSON other that because of indoctrination from a false teaching.