Gnosticism...Again!

[DavyP]

Yes, God gave us reason, but our inaccurate reasoning ability is due to the Fall/sin, not what God originally gave man.

Are you sure you really want to believe that man before the fall had proper reasoning given by God?

Would Adam and Eve had sinned if they had had 'accurate reasoning ability' from God? I don't think so.

As written, Eve's temptation was influenced by her fleshy lusts, saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food, and pleasant to the eyes (Genesis 3:6; 1 John 2:16). Just think, if that fall had not have happened, would man have needed saving by The Father sending His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and defeat death for us?

 

[crossnote]

I studied all that junk in my younger years, including Greek philosophy. I thank God that He dumped the majority of that out of my brain in preparing me to understand His Word of Truth. I used to study Neo-platonism before I became a Christian and saw the Gnostic influences in it.

I got a D in college Philosophy (I didn't have a clue what I was doing). Today. (53 years later) I'd probably ace the class unless they flunked me for disagreeing with their hypotheticals. lol

 

[DavyP]

I got a D in college Philosophy (I didn't have a clue what I was doing). Today. (53 years later) I'd probably ace the class unless they flunked me for disagreeing with their hypotheticals. lol

I minored in Industrial Psychology, and had to pick a couple of electives. One that I chose was called Cognition. It was of how our mind works. I thought it might be interesting, and it was. It was strictly science things on how our brain works, like memory, etc. One of the reasons why phone numbers were put in 7 digits was because our short term memory stores things into long-term memory more easily as sets of 7.

One of the things I didn't believe at first, was how not everyone has the natural ability for abstract thinking. They referenced an experiment (which was made a movie), where they brought in a test subjects, one at a time, and set them before this table-panel of a row of toggle switches with voltmeters. They were told the test involved asking the subject in a back room on headphones test questions, and for each one missed, they were to flip a toggle switch and a shock would be administered. They were told to go through the test and continue through the switches as needed, each next switch adding more voltage than the last. The actual receiver was an actor who only play-shouted like he was being shocked.

They tested 3 subject Categories:
1. the first category were those who went through the whole test without any remorse or questioning, shocking the receiver as each question was missed.

2. the second group started, but after just a little into the test, turned and showed concern about the guy on the receiving end. The instructor then brow-beat the person to continue, and they did, went through the whole test like the first category.

3. when those in the third category were simply revealed about that the guy in the back room would receive a shock for missing a question, the subject became irate at the experiment, and refused to participate.

They also tested each Category's ability for abstract thinking:
1. the first category, that showed no moral sense, tested lowest on the ability to abstract think.

2. the second category, which showed some sense of moral code, but gave in by a little prodding, show some ability for abstract thinking.

3. the third category which completely refused to participate tested the highest in the ability to abstract think.

They also proposed that folks who tested low on abstract thinking often have a lack of ability to visualize things in their mind.

I didn't really believe it.

Then when I worked as a craftsman mechanic, and knew a couple of pipefitters, I noticed one of them did all the trigonometry layouts, and the other did all the welding. So I asked why. The one doing all the welding said he could not 'see it'. He claimed he could not visualize to do the pipe layouts of angles and such. So I asked if he could visualize period, and he said no.

 

[crossnote]

Are you sure you really want to believe that man before the fall had proper reasoning given by God?

Would Adam and Eve had sinned if they had had 'accurate reasoning ability' from God? I don't think so.

As written, Eve's temptation was influenced by her fleshy lusts, saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food, and pleasant to the eyes (Genesis 3:6; 1 John 2:16). Just think, if that fall had not have happened, would man have needed saving by The Father sending His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and defeat death for us?

Scripture says Eve was deceived, it is silent about Adam's reason except for the fact he was not deceived (2Ti 2:14).

'Would Adam and Eve had sinned if they had accurate reasoning ability'?
With Eve it had more to do with...
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat," Gen3:6
It doesn't say why Adam followed suit, it could have been for the fact that he knew what was to happen to Eve, and out of love, took the plunge (a rough type of Christ and His Church). But then again... speculation.

Of course, if the Fall had not happened, there would be no restoration needed.

 

[crossnote]

I minored in Industrial Psychology, and had to pick a couple of electives. One that I chose was called Cognition. It was of how our mind works. I thought it might be interesting, and it was. It was strictly science things on how our brain works, like memory, etc. One of the reasons why phone numbers were put in 7 digits was because our short term memory stores things into long-term memory more easily as sets of 7.

One of the things I didn't believe at first, was how not everyone has the natural ability for abstract thinking. They referenced an experiment (which was made a movie), where they brought in a test subjects, one at a time, and set them before this table-panel of a row of toggle switches with voltmeters. They were told the test involved asking the subject in a back room on headphones test questions, and for each one missed, they were to flip a toggle switch and a shock would be administered. They were told to go through the test and continue through the switches as needed, each next switch adding more voltage than the last. The actual receiver was an actor who only play-shouted like he was being shocked.

They tested 3 subject Categories:
1. the first category were those who went through the whole test without any remorse or questioning, shocking the receiver as each question was missed.

2. the second group started, but after just a little into the test, turned and showed concern about the guy on the receiving end. The instructor then brow-beat the person to continue, and they did, went through the whole test like the first category.

3. when those in the third category were simply revealed about that the guy in the back room would receive a shock for missing a question, the subject became irate at the experiment, and refused to participate.

They also tested each Category's ability for abstract thinking:
1. the first category, that showed no moral sense, tested lowest on the ability to abstract think.

2. the second category, which showed some sense of moral code, but gave in by a little prodding, show some ability for abstract thinking.

3. the third category which completely refused to participate tested the highest in the ability to abstract think.

They also proposed that folks who tested low on abstract thinking often have a lack of ability to visualize things in their mind.

I didn't really believe it.

Then when I worked as a craftsman mechanic, and knew a couple of pipefitters, I noticed one of them did all the trigonometry layouts, and the other did all the welding. So I asked why. The one doing all the welding said he could not 'see it'. He claimed he could not visualize to do the pipe layouts of angles and such. So I asked if he could visualize period, and he said no.

I also minored in Educational Psychology and was turned off by it all as each new class had a new theory oftentimes contradicting the last class' theory.

 

[DavyP]

I also minored in Educational Psychology and was turned off by it all as each new class had a new theory oftentimes contradicting the last class' theory.

My major was Aerospace Administration, so I picked the Industrial Psychology as an easy minor, I thought. Industrial Psychology is a lot different than the other branches of Psychology. It's more about where to put the steering wheel and stick shift in your car, measuring assembly line production techniques, labor habits and studies, etc. It's strictly in service for industrial applications. So I figured, easy, right? Wrong! I had to do more paper reports and research in that minor than in any other field of study I went through. But it did help a lot with courses like Airline Management and Airport Management.

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you sure you really want to believe that man before the fall had proper reasoning given by God?

Would Adam and Eve had sinned if they had had 'accurate reasoning ability' from God? I don't think so.

As written, Eve's temptation was influenced by her fleshy lusts, saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food, and pleasant to the eyes (Genesis 3:6; 1 John 2:16). Just think, if that fall had not have happened, would man have needed saving by The Father sending His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and defeat death for us?

I don't know how you define "proper reasoning," but Eve was deceived, with her desire for being like God as the 'catalyst'.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I'm sure there are all kinds of doctrinal psychology that can be applied to a woman none of us has ever met, but we can see in the text that the deception is what empowered her thinking that the fruit will make her a god.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I don't see fleshly lusts, such as sex, in any of the text as her motivation. Deception always makes false desires look and sound better than they are.

If we're going to talk about reasoning, then Adam had it. He chose to fall with his wife. Perhaps that was the power of love, and the Lord knew before the foundations of the world it was going to happen, and yet He still put those things in the garden He knew would bring it about. It ALL fit in with His plan.

Eve sinned from the foundation of deception, and allowing that deception to give life to the false claims the serpent uttered to her, which did resonate with desires within her that clearly were not holy and righteous. I'm sure some will argue that there was no impurity in them before the fall, and here we are, looking back at it all, and seeing clearly that they both had the ability to disobey on the basis of the freedom the Lord has given to us all.

As to any alternative...no. There was no chance they were not going to fall. There were no alternative paths for how that could have turned out, for the Lord knew before the world ever was, that the fall was going to happen. No other course was therefore possible. That fantasy is entertained by many people, wondering what the world would have been like had the fall not happened. It was never to be. The testing of sin is how the Lord grew a people who love Him freely rather than filling His House with a bunch of robotic personages. He wants a people who are tried and true.

MM

 

[Via dolarossa]

tried and true.

That’s the bestest shortest description of refined I’ve ever heard.

I’m adding that to my short phrases list when I need a go to.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Then when I worked as a craftsman mechanic, and knew a couple of pipefitters, I noticed one of them did all the trigonometry layouts, and the other did all the welding. So I asked why. The one doing all the welding said he could not 'see it'. He claimed he could not visualize to do the pipe layouts of angles and such. So I asked if he could visualize period, and he said no.

At risk of being off-topic, look up the medical condition 'Aphantasia' when you have a moment. You may find it interesting.

 

[DavyP]

I don't know how you define "proper reasoning," but Eve was deceived, with her desire for being like God as the 'catalyst'.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I'm sure there are all kinds of doctrinal psychology that can be applied to a woman none of us has ever met, but we can see in the text that the deception is what empowered her thinking that the fruit will make her a god.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I don't see fleshly lusts, such as sex, in any of the text as her motivation. Deception always makes false desires look and sound better than they are.

Gen 3:6
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
KJV

That part above in red are terms related to the flesh lusts and desires. So I don't know why you would try to deny that her flesh lusts was involved. The flesh lusting after food and things that appear pleasant to the eyes doesn't have to be about sex.

If we're going to talk about reasoning, then Adam had it. He chose to fall with his wife. Perhaps that was the power of love, and the Lord knew before the foundations of the world it was going to happen, and yet He still put those things in the garden He knew would bring it about. It ALL fit in with His plan.

I don't think the idea of reasoning is a subject being covered there in Genesis about Adam and Eve. The Scriptures I read show it's about desires presented to them by the devil ("that old serpent") designed to affect their fleshy lusts. And yes, wanting to be your own god is a type of lust also.

I agree that God knew beforehand what would happen; He knew Adam and Eve would not survive the devil's temptation to their flesh. Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:20 declares that Christ had already been ordained before the foundation of the world to die on the cross, and that ordaining was before Adam and Eve. So the fall had to happen, and I believe our Heavenly Father well knew it would, because of flesh which Apostle Paul called in Romans 7 a body of sin. Thus the seed for sin was already present in Adam and Eve's flesh.

Some brethren also err in thinking that in the world to come, we will be like how Adam and Eve were in God's Garden before... they sinned, in other words, in a state of flesh perfection. God's Word does not teach that though. The idea of a fleshy state of perfection actually comes from paganism and the occultists. They are the ones that are trying to create immortality in the flesh. Apostle Paul said, "Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them." (1 Corinthians 6:13). Our existence in a flesh body today is only part of this present world which also is ordained to be destroyed by God (2 Peter 3).

 

[DavyP]

At risk of being off-topic, look up the medical condition 'Aphantasia' when you have a moment. You may find it interesting.

That might also explain why many folks have difficulty also with understanding analogy and allegory, since that requires the ability to imagine something and apply it metaphorically to another thing.

 

[Musicmaster]

Gen 3:6
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
KJV

That part above in red are terms related to the flesh lusts and desires. So I don't know why you would try to deny that her flesh lusts was involved. The flesh lusting after food and things that appear pleasant to the eyes doesn't have to be about sex.



I don't think the idea of reasoning is a subject being covered there in Genesis about Adam and Eve. The Scriptures I read show it's about desires presented to them by the devil ("that old serpent") designed to affect their fleshy lusts. And yes, wanting to be your own god is a type of lust also.

I agree that God knew beforehand what would happen; He knew Adam and Eve would not survive the devil's temptation to their flesh. Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:20 declares that Christ had already been ordained before the foundation of the world to die on the cross, and that ordaining was before Adam and Eve. So the fall had to happen, and I believe our Heavenly Father well knew it would, because of flesh which Apostle Paul called in Romans 7 a body of sin. Thus the seed for sin was already present in Adam and Eve's flesh.

Some brethren also err in thinking that in the world to come, we will be like how Adam and Eve were in God's Garden before... they sinned, in other words, in a state of flesh perfection. God's Word does not teach that though. The idea of a fleshy state of perfection actually comes from paganism and the occultists. They are the ones that are trying to create immortality in the flesh. Apostle Paul said, "Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them." (1 Corinthians 6:13). Our existence in a flesh body today is only part of this present world which also is ordained to be destroyed by God (2 Peter 3).

You've met people who think we will be like Adam and Eve? Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone that ignorant. Adam and Eve did not have glorified bodies as we will have, and we will not be in an environment where sin will exist, such as the presence of the serpent that was in the garden.

MM

 

[crossnote]

At risk of being off-topic, look up the medical condition 'Aphantasia' when you have a moment. You may find it interesting.

I would say that I have that at least partially when it comes to the visual aspect of aphantasia.
But where I am weak in the visual remembrance/imagining department, I make up on the audio side of things. I can hear a voice once and then associate it with a particular person, weeks or months later.
My wife, on the other hand, can tell you what clothes you were wearing at the meeting...2 years later. (a bit off topic?...Yeahh)

 

[Cooper]

Christ is the wisdom of God.

"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1:24

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:2-3 KJV

 

[Cooper]

If God had wanted us to understand that there were a feminine aspect to His nature, He certainly had/has the power and wisdom (get it?) to have had that revealed to us rather than for it to be some "hidden wisdom" Gnostics are so prone to mislead others into believing.

What say you?

MM

God did reveal who wisdom is, see above.

 

[DavyP]

You've met people who think we will be like Adam and Eve? Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone that ignorant. Adam and Eve did not have glorified bodies as we will have, and we will not be in an environment where sin will exist, such as the presence of the serpent that was in the garden.

MM

Yeah, a lot of preachers today believe that we will be given new flesh bodies in the world to come. Some compare it to the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden before they sinned.

I recognize the Biblical fact by Apostle Paul that the glorious body of the world to come is a "spiritual body", like he taught in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter.

 

[Musicmaster]

God did reveal who wisdom is, see above.

Sophia? Is that the entity you're referring to?

MM

 

[Cooper]

Sophia? Is that the entity you're referring to?

MM

Did you not look in #94 like I said? It tells us who Wisdom is clear-as-clear can be.

 

[Cooper]

Sophia? Is that the entity you're referring to?

MM

NO. Not Sophia. I told you in #94 it was not Sophia. It is Christ who is the wisdom of God.

Christ is the wisdom of God.

"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1:24

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:2-3 KJV

 

[Musicmaster]

Did you not look in #94 like I said? It tells us who Wisdom is clear-as-clear can be.

I see your analysis as relying upon nuance and innuendo in relation to those verses, given that they are obscure when considering their context in relation to your conclusion.

Just what I'm seeing.

MM