FYI: Word of Faith Statement of Faith

[Juk]

You are wrong, then, dear Juk, because the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not required for salvation. Romans 8:9 is talking about the fact that we as Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit in us from the moment of faith, forever...but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a usually subsequent anointing that we can avail ourselves of.

So, please provide scripture that tells us that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is for unbelievers to be saved.

Oh, I just thought that baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you got the Holy Spirit.

 

[Major]

You know perfectly well the entire story is they believed, never heard of the Holy Spirit's baptism and then they were baptised! It's very clear. It is your choice to see what you see, but it cannot be nullified no matter how much you don't want it to say that.

I do not know that my brother. What I quoted to you is what I understand the story to be NOT what I want it to be.
That kind of thinking runs both ways IMO.

 

[Major]

Greetings Major,
I KNOW so Jim! I am a forgiven sinner and now am a saint of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am exactly like Paul in Romans 7 and so is everyone else. The difference between me and you is that I admit it.
Major speaking of Paul it would seem that he does not know this either.
Do you remember Paul saying He has wronged no man ? Now then if he was sin minded then he would remember his past as saul but Paul knew who he was in Christ and that is the fact that he like us all have been delivered from sin.

Now then God delivers the drug adic from drugs....is he still a drug adic saved from drugs ? No brother He is a new man in Christ and has no drug issues. Paul had a hold of this so deep within his being that I doubt he even remembered saul as it was paul who spent time trying to teach Christians to forget the past for it is all useless garbage compared to Christ.

You have a point there that this is the difference between us. I do not admit or claim or speak or agree with in a manner of saying I am anything that God delivered me from not to mention the cross and the blood or the cost paid to seperate us from sin. No Brother I wont ever claim to be a sinner.

The Old nature of sin can not be destroyed Jim. I agree that we are not SIN MINDED and we as Christians are not dominated by sin UNLESS we allow it. That however is not the issue is it????

Major the old sin nature can not only be destroyed but it is a must in order to fulfill Gods purpose in us here on this earth. If the sin nature is not destroyed then you will be lead by this sin nature but being born again by incorruptible seed the ever living word of God we have been delivered from sin. This is not just as a clensing but delivered FROM THE CONTROL of sin Brother........It has no more hold over us UNLESS WE GIVE IT A PLACE IN OUR LIVES.

This does not say we miss the mark now and again but if we do sin then we do have Christ Blood covering us and cling unto Gods grace and confess this sin and not only be forgiven of it but be clensed of all unrighteousness as well and again this does not make us a sinner all over again. We are not perfect but through His word we are being perfected into His image one breath after another.

So if you want to hold onto what God and the Blood of Christ has stripped from you then that would be your choice. However for me Brother, I take the written word of God for what it says and it says the yoke has been destroyed so any yoke of a sinning nature simply will not fit me for it is counterfeit - I mean come on now..........God does not see us as a sinner......why in the world would we want to ?

God Bless Major
Jim

John 2:1-2.......
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world” .

Yes, it is true we are forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice and not our own perfection. However, the forgiveness that we have received motivates us to try to live perfect. We will fall short time and time again, but the ultimate goal of every Christian according to John is to “not sin.

I have talked to several Christians who have lost the hope of salvation because of their continual struggle with sin. To that John would say, don’t worry, hang in there, help is available and His name is Jesus. It is true that we are unrighteous at times, but Jesus is always righteous and He is our advocate and our propitiation. Jesus makes it possible for us in our sinfulness to still be declared sinless and pure. John would later write to these same brethren that he wants them to “know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

Christians should never approve of sin in their lives. God wants us to stay in the light by constantly turning away from sin. When we do sin, we can still feel confident in our salvation by placing our trust in Jesus as our Advocate and our propitiation.
http://www.bibleanswershow.com/2013/02/what-if-i-sin-after-being-savedam-i-lost.html

 

[Major]

Oh, I just thought that baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you got the Holy Spirit.

Juk.....the Holy Spirit is received of all believers at the moment of salvation. It is NOT a bonus that some receive later.

YOU do the work yourself. This is not hard at all. Goggle Bible verses that say...."we receive the Holy Spirit when saved".
Then you read the Bible verses for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you that fact.

 

[Major]

Brother Major,
Please tell me why it is needed to admit or SPEAK YOU ARE A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE ?
Why do you feel you must still be connected to that old nature like this ?\
This is the issue.......

I agree! That is THE issue.

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble and also my belief of it. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being; the stain runs deep and it’s in the warp and woof of our souls. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3......
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh".

It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5.............
"Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.”
"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin".

The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature, and it affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical.

Isaiah 53:6...........
"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

Paul then admits that “the trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin” in Rom. 7:14.
Paul was in his “sinful nature a slave to the law of sin” in Rom. 7:25.

How can you miss that and fail to grasp what is being stated. It is not a thought or an example it is however his EXACT words.

Solomon concurs in Ecc. 7:20.....
“Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, / no one who does what is right and never sins”.

The apostle John perhaps puts it most bluntly in 1 John 1:7......
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”.

I really feel like you need to be addressing these Bible teaching instead of asking me WHY I BELIVE THEM.

 

[Major]

No, it isn't anything near elitism.

And so once again we have to disagree.

 

[Euphemia]

Oh, I just thought that baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you got the Holy Spirit.

Every single person who comes to faith in Jesus Christ receives the Holy Spirit who comes to live in Him, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when one submits to His anointing power, which comes upon him like a flood, giving him the power to actually live out His callings and giftings with ease and success.

 

[Euphemia]

And so once again we have to disagree.

I am satisfied to do that, as in the Lord, thanks, as you appear to mischaracterize me as promoting a kind of elitism in the carnal sense. However, as a follower of Jesus, I am set apart from the world. Aren't you?

 

[Major]

I am satisfied to do that, as in the Lord, thanks, as you appear to mischaracterize me as promoting a kind of elitism in the carnal sense. However, as a follower of Jesus, I am set apart from the world. Aren't you?

The harm that I see regularly is the viewpoint that the Word of Faith kind of hope in Jesus Christ and His living and powerful word is harmful. It is not. NOW, perhaps the detractors are

1. Afraid of the baptism of the Holy Spirit
2. Do not know about the baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. Influenced by people who consistently denigrate such churches
4. Referring to people who claim to be WoF, but are off on a tangent of telling their people that they need to command financial and material prosperity from God and to go out on a limb expecting perfect healing, abandoning lifesaving medical help. Now that is cultish.

It would be helpful to all of us if you would speak to the Bible directions given to us and Scriptures that teach us instead of "veiled" and not so "veilded" comments aimed at those of us who do not agree with your theology. I am sure that you will respond by saying I was not directing my comments to you personally however however .................

1. What in the world is their to be afraid of??? I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit of God since 1964 when I was saved under the prreaching of Dr. E. J. Daniels. Do I come across as someone who lives in fear???

2. Where in our conversations have I said that I did not know about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. By not agreeing with YOU does not make anyone unaware of what we talk about. Once again that comment speaks of a higher state of learning or blessing from God.

3. "Denigrate" means to disparage the character or reputation of others.
Since you believe that to be the case......please list the name of the thread and the comment #. If it is me I will certainly be the first to apologize for it. Again, there is a real difference between disagreeing and disparagement. I have personnlay tried to show everyone the respect that each of us deserve.

4. That sounds like you are confused to me. It reads like you are talking about the Wof F believers and not those who disagree with them.

Again......please help all of us by speaking to the issues at hand. Why not use Bible verses!!!!!! Then we can speak to those verses and how they teach you what you believe.

 

[Major]

Do you believe that this is necessary for salvation? Actually, it is.
Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

But I think that this was just for that time period. I know that I have the Holy Spirit but I didn't have any special experience.

Juk. ......God is willing to help us, he’s not hiding. He wants to be involved in all aspects of our life. Before we are saved God is there working through the Holy Spirit.

We see and understand that God sent the Holy Spirit “convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me” which is the Word of God as seen in John 16:8-9. That means the Holy Spirit is the FIRST ONE involved in the salvation process. He convicts the UNBELIEVER of their sin so that they can then turn to Christ.

Once someone believes they are a sinner they can turn to Jesus for forgiveness.
For the unbeliever the Holy Spirit has a ministry of leading them to the Son. He has been sent to convince unbelievers of sin, righteousness and judgment.
Sin-To show they are sinful, having fallen short of God’s standard.
Righteousness- To convict them of not having a righteousness of their own to be accepted by God, but in need of God’s righteousness that he freely gives through accepting the gospel. This righteousness is only found only in Christ.
Judgment- in that there is more than meets the eye, that there is a time they will have to answer for how they lived their life. There is a hereafter, as eternity is in our hearts. We know that there is more than just a physical life
To sum this up simply- the first work of the spirit is to show one that they sin and are in need of a righteousness that they do not possess. Then when that unbelievers confesses his sin the Holy Spirit then moves into his life and heart thus filling that believer with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Euphemia]

1. What in the world is their to be afraid of??? I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit of God since 1964 when I was saved under the prreaching of Dr. E. J. Daniels. Do I come across as someone who lives in fear???

I have met many people in my lifetime who have declared themselves fearful of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Being saved is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, although some people receive the baptism at the same time as salvation, or even at the same time as their water baptism.

2. Where in our conversations have I said that I did not know about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. By not agreeing with YOU does not make anyone unaware of what we talk about. Once again that comment speaks of a higher state of learning or blessing from God.

My comment #2 was a general statement and I am not about to make this personal.

I am encouraged to hear that you understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. Therefore you will now cease from commenting further about by supposed "elitism", because you know that there are believers who have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

3. "Denigrate" means to disparage the character or reputation of others.
Since you believe that to be the case......please list the name of the thread and the comment #. If it is me I will certainly be the first to apologize for it. Again, there is a real difference between disagreeing and disparagement. I have personnlay tried to show everyone the respect that each of us deserve.

I was speaking generally and I am not going to oblige you.

4. That sounds like you are confused to me. It reads like you are talking about the Wof F believers and not those who disagree with them.

Actually I am dispelling the confusion that many have about what they like to think is the WoF.

 

[Major]

Major we will have our day some time after the 15th of the month when I get my new data for the month. System updates wipedout just about then entire months worth . lol

However since I have a minute or tweo I want to say something about your answer marked 2
If you want to claim you are both saved and a sinner be my guest. All men are born with a sin nature. When we become born again all things are NEW and not the same.
WE ARE NOT TO BE SIN MINDED. If saying I am a sinner and a saint is not beingh sin minded then what is ?

Scripture tells us over and over even as.....evan as a sinner ? No I dont think so.
Please get into practice if you are going to quote out side parties in our thread you need to include the entire chapter word for word or it will be void and worthless. That is what you agreed to. ; )

CyaL8r
Jim

Jim......
Has anyone asked you, "how are you felling today", and even though you say FINE you really fell terrible? Don't say NO because I know better than that brother.

You just sinned!

Have you ever had the feeling that you needed to take a lunch to a sick friend but did not do it because of your circumstances, whatever they were at the time?
No need to say NO Jim. We all live in the same world.

But when the Holy Spirit moves us to do and we don't we sin!

Jim, are you going to try and tell me that you have never ever seen a woman, nude, whether on TV or a magizene or movies or real life, and the thought of........
"Man o man what a woman, I sure would like to _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ her."
Please do not insult all of us by saying NO. Every male who reads this would then know you are not being sincere in your answers. WE have ALL been there.

That Jim my dear brother is sin and that is what I am talking about. That is not being sin minded and it is not being sin dominated. It is what happens in life and because of the grace of God through the Lord Jesus He forgives me of that sin even before I confess it and ask Him to forgive me.

So then YES......I am a saint who sins and if you can not see that then I do not know what else to say. I admitt that because I am living in a real world and those things happen all the time to real believers.

 

[Major]

I have met many people in my lifetime who have declared themselves fearful of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Being saved is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, although some people receive the baptism at the same time as salvation, or even at the same time as their water baptism.



My comment #2 was a general statement and I am not about to make this personal.

I am encouraged to hear that you understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. Therefore you will now cease from commenting further about by supposed "elitism", because you know that there are believers who have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.





I was speaking generally and I am not going to oblige you.



Actually I am dispelling the confusion that many have about what they like to think is the WoF.

1.
We disagree on that. I will stick with what I believe the Scriptures teach me.

1st Corth. 12:13 declares......
"for we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

Rom. 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: ...............................
“You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

Eph. 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: ............
“Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9 is even stronger, stating that if a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” as recorded in Eph. 1:13-14 if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior. I will stick with that theology.

No need to respond to the others comments. We have been down that road.
My perception is different than your direction.

 

[Euphemia]

1.
We disagree on that. I will stick with what I believe the Scriptures teach me.

1st Corth. 12:13 declares......
"for we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

Rom. 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: ...............................
“You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

Eph. 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: ............
“Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9 is even stronger, stating that if a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” as recorded in Eph. 1:13-14 if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior. I will stick with that theology.

No need to respond to the others comments. We have been down that road.
My perception is different than your direction.

All great scriptures, but you have never truly been able to deny the baptism of the Holy Spirit as taught in scripture and experienced by the early Church.

Your perception and direction is incongruent with the word of God. You just cannot use the scriptures to deny the scriptures.

 

[Ravindran]

Another hot topic I guess

Wayne Grudem has a nice study on Baptism of Holy Spirit.. I actually agree with that wholeheartedly. I don't think Baptism of Holy Spirit should necessarily be a second experience to be filled with Holy Spirit.. While certainly a person can be filled with such experiences to become filled with Holy Spirit.. He has written nice things on this subject explaining all the Biblical verses around Baptism of Holy Spirit

 

[Mykuhl]

I don't understand why there is a big debate on this: the scriptures clearly teach that there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself made the distinction in John 20:22 and Acts 1:4,5, 8. In the former verse Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit", and in Acts, Jesus said, "you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

 

[Abdicate]

I don't understand why there is a big debate on this: the scriptures clearly teach that there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself made the distinction in John 20:22 and Acts 1:4,5, 8. In the former verse Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit", and in Acts, Jesus said, "you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

It's a matter of those that have it and those that don't. Those that don't have it and don't believe it because they've not experienced it and therefore don't want it. Let them be. Their loss.

 

[Major]

I don't understand why there is a big debate on this: the scriptures clearly teach that there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself made the distinction in John 20:22 and Acts 1:4, 5, 8. In the former verse Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit", and in Acts, Jesus said, "you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Sorry brother, I just do not understand it that way. I think you are missing the point of the conversation.

Some denominations of Christianity believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by their speaking in tongues, experiencing miracles, and so on and so on. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is seen by them as different than the initial receiving of the Holy Spirit of God. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is believed to embolden believers, give them the ability to speak in unknown tongues, and to live a more victorious life in Christ.

In other words, it places them in a position of elitism. It is a position that they will deny but it does not takes a lot of thinking and reading to see why that is the case. That really is the center of this topic.

There is not a Pentecostal Charismatic , W o F follower worth their salt who will not ask you...........
"Have you been baptized in the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues???"

The question alone gives the perception of superiority whether admitted or not and I do not see how anyone can deny that.

 

[Major]

All great scriptures, but you have never truly been able to deny the baptism of the Holy Spirit as taught in scripture and experienced by the early Church.

Your perception and direction is incongruent with the word of God. You just cannot use the scriptures to deny the scriptures.

Actually all I am doing is explaining what those Scriptures tell ME. If you do not understand them as I do then wonderful. No Problem what so ever.

1 Corinthians 12:13 says to me........
“For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.”

You can not be a believer and not be baptized by the Spirit. That is what it says to ME.
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

So then there is One Spirit and that is the Holy Spirit and Paul is saying that all believers are baptized by the Spirit. You can not be a believer and not be baptized by the Spirit. If you or anyone else disagree then your argument is not with ME.

If someone does not have the Holy Spirit of God, they are not the children of God because “those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God” which is the Word of God as seen in Romans 8:14.

Then we see in 1 John 3:24..........
“And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us”.

What does this all mean????? To ME it means that the Holy Spirit makes us part of the Body of Christ.

If we don’t have the Holy Spirit, we are none of His since “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9). Indeed, “those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God” (Romans 8:14).

It seems to me that being filled with the Spirit means being controlled by the Holy Spirit. We will have complete fulfillment if we allow the Holy Spirit to control us. To be filled with the Spirit is to be controlled by the Spirit for the Spirit’s presence is revealed in the fruit we produce as said in Galatians 5:22-23.

That is ME. If you do not agree, love me and pray for both of us as I will you.

 

[Klub]

Every single person who comes to faith in Jesus Christ receives the Holy Spirit who comes to live in Him, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when one submits to His anointing power, which comes upon him like a flood, giving him the power to actually live out His callings and giftings with ease and success.

so without the baptism of the spirit, we cannot live out the calling?