Destiny Or Free Will?
- Thread starter Big Moose
- Start date
To say faith is not the gift mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 is not THE gift being referred to does not equal "in the absence of God there is still some good left in us"...the logic does not follow!
When God saw all that He created He said it was very good. There are many scriptures that affirm it is God who creates the spirit in a person. God does not create the "ruach" to be evil but it becomes evil because it will sin (when we do sin, we separate OURSELVES from God - Isaiah 59:2)...
This position you just expressed now returns from the post-Dort Reformed position to pure Calvinism (another flip flop)...make up your mind! Either man is responsible for his sin (as Deuteronomy 24 and Ezekiel 18 both confirm) or else God is responsible for mans sin (for which there is NO scriptural support)...which is it?
When God saw all that He created He said it was very good. There are many scriptures that affirm it is God who creates the spirit in a person. God does not create the "ruach" to be evil but it becomes evil because it will sin (when we do sin, we separate OURSELVES from God - Isaiah 59:2)...
This position you just expressed now returns from the post-Dort Reformed position to pure Calvinism (another flip flop)...make up your mind! Either man is responsible for his sin (as Deuteronomy 24 and Ezekiel 18 both confirm) or else God is responsible for mans sin (for which there is NO scriptural support)...which is it?
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MichaelH
Inactive
If you have not noticed, He does a very poor job defending Calvinism. Some of his statements would make a true Calvinist cringe. What I suspect is he just watches other folks and try's to parrot them without any real study himself. It's sad when you can defend someones false doctrine better than they can.
Hi Moose,
Actually, the passage from Romans and Ephesians 1:4 -21 are speaking about the Jews. It was the Jews who were predestined.
Sorry that's wrong... Romans and Ephesians both where GENTILE churches and this is very clear in the reading of these epistles.
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
MichaelH
Inactive
I would love to agree with you, but Romans speak of predestination for the Jews, all of Romans.
If you read other scriptures, Jesus known before the foundation of the Word was predestined to come to men. Many are called, few or chosen (Jesus said) so those called, does not automatically qualify someone.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The qualification for this is to make Jesus Lord. God made the Worlds through and for his son, so everything would be put under the son anyway.
You still have to accept Jesus as Lord though.
Ignorant people forget about this step and use this scripture to mean something it does not.
We have to believe and accept Jesus as Lord, and faith comes by hearing the Word of God which every single person can do, they can hear the Word, which is God, who draws them. Not wanting anyone to perish.
There are some stupid people you have to deal with, who have ZERO ability to compare scriptures. Makes you wonder how they get by in life, not having the ability to compare things.
Be blessed.
Do some of you even read the words of the bible?
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
How does this address what I said? The passage you bolded is from Hosea and is speaking of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. {Loruhamah: that is, Not having obtained mercy} {no...: Heb. not add any more to} {but...: or, that I should altogether pardon them}
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. {Loammi: that is, Not my people}
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. {in...: or, instead of that}
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. (Hos 1:5-11 KJV)
It's not wrong. Yes, they were Gentile churches, and the letters written to them. However, that doesn't mean Paul can't address different people in those churches. Paul opens his letter to the Roman church in general, but, in chapter 2 he turns his attention to the Jewish believers.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; {approvest...: or, triest the things that differ}
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. (Rom 2:17-20 KJV)
He continues this discourse to the Jewish believers until chapter 11 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom 11:13-14 KJV)
During his discourse to the Jewish believers Paul repeatedly speaks of the Law yet after turning this attention to the Gentiles he only mentions the Law twice and says that love is the fulfillment of the Law.
Ephesians 1:3-12 Is on long sentence in the original language, it's a praise to God. It's called a Hebraism. In the passage Paul is giving praise to God for the blessings He's bestowed on the Jewish people. That Paul is speaking of the Jews can be seem in verse 12.
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. {trusted: or, hoped} (Eph 1:12 KJV)
Literally, we who first hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ, not the Gentiles.
Actually, this should have said Ephesians 1:4-12 not 1:4-21
Can you read?
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ro 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Yeah, I can read. As I said, the passage you quoted is speaking of the Israelites. However, even though God is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles, that fact has no bearing on who Paul is addressing in the passages in question.
It's a non sequitur.
MichaelH
Inactive
I don't even know what we are talking about now.
I am trying to figure out what Mitspa is trying to say, I know he is smarter than to believe in some Election nonsense.
We lost the new Calvinist, but he did not understand his doctrine well enough to defend it. Blew him out of here.
I hate election doctrines.
Blessings.
Hi Butch, and welcome. Where are you on Gentiles, then? Destined, called and chosen, or called and person must make the decision to respond to calling? Or other?