Destiny Or Free Will?

BM you asked about my take on Isaiah 45...I am a trinitarian...ONE and only one God in three eternally distinct persons...GOd is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...One YHVH not three...as God yachid (numerically one) as Father, Son, and Spirit echad (a unity)...how about you? The person speaking here is the Word/Son who tells us in John that no man has ever seen the Father nor heard His voice...
 
Brother Paul said:
BM you asked about my take on ...I am a trinitarian...ONE and only one God in three eternally distinct persons...GOd is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...One YHVH not three...as God yachid (numerically one) as Father, Son, and Spirit echad (a unity)...how about you? The person speaking here is the Word/Son who tells us in John that no man has ever seen the Father nor heard His voice...
Click to expand...

Your a trinitarian............ cough.... cough.... (Brother Paul and I hold a different definition of what that is)

Well, I hold the original and True (Maybe just original, and not so true) Trinity Doctrine first laid out for the World in 325ad. The one that did not mention the Holy Spirit, the One which the much later ones were based one.

Well actually, I don't hold it either, it's just what I call the real Trinity Doctrine.

I think we have like a massive couple threads on this where everyone gives their views without getting to upset at each other.

i would Hold the Trinity Doctrine............. There are 3, that are as 1 (later version of Trinity)

I would not at all Agree with Oneness or Modelism.

I am still a Polytheist though.

however, I still agree with Paul and you that the Scripture says exactly what it says.......... There is only ONE GOD who is the Only Savior.

Blessings.
 
Big Moose said:
I thought this would be a good discussion topic. We have free will. But God is omniscient. Yet He was sorry or regretted that He ever made mankind right before the Flood in Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Thoughts on how to reconcile God knowing ahead of time this would happen and yet regretting doing it?
I have some ideas on this and would like to see what other believers have revealed to them.

Other related scripture:
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Click to expand...

As a latecomer to the thread, I have to say that according to these verses we can know that we BELIEVERS are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

God desires all to become His sons, and He has a plan for everyone as His children, yet only for those who actually do become His children by faith and by their own sovereign will, His predestination steps up to the plate.
 
Brother Paul said:
You are so confused! Of course God chose you and me...that does not negate the responsibility on our part to accept/receive/believe...that confirms it. It proves you will but does not CAUSE YOU to. We do not determine our salvation, I have already explained that from scripture AND demonstrated what the Apostles taught that these things mean to those they anointed and empowered to teach. How can you imagine that EVERY SINGLE leader of the 1st churches were in error and some persons theology never before known or believed, many centuries later, is correct. You are saying all Christendom for 1500 years was wrong...how vain is that...it is the same conclusion I recieve from JWs, SDAs, and other groups...the whole church was in error until their view came along!!! Pishtosh!

So when you say you do not follow a man but only the Bible, you are deceived, because by the Bible alone (but taken as a whole, which includes all the scriptures related to this) you cannot come to he conclusion you have reached. There are far too many passages of scripture that negate the extremeness of this view (just Augustine alone points to over 20...).

To deny they are equally THE truth is either beguilement or indoctrination but not objective reasoning guided by the Spirit because ALL the scriptures are given by God's in-breathing...no set of scriptures OPPOSES another...they all are part of the one truth God is enlightening us to....

You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers

What a terrible false accusation against a brother. I never implied any such thing! Through Jesus Christ ALL have an opportunity to be saved (but all will not do what God has asked) not just those HE MADE to believe (regeneration does not precede the ability to believe). Salvation and judgment are involved with the participation of man's willful choice, not CAUSED by it (it is required according to His sovereign plan that it be so, because He gave them dominion over all that is on the earth).

God always initiates (Augustine called it prevenient grace but the scriptures I gave demonstrate it clearly...God spoke, directing Cain to do it right warning him of the consequence if he did not...but He was not going to violate His own promise to make Cain do it...). We do not merit or deserve BECAUSE we believe, we only have realized what God said was true and yielded, submitted, KNOWING we are condemnable and powerless to obtain it, because we RECOGNIZE, following His enlightenment, that we are worthy of condemnation...

The unyielding, who will not give up, surrender, are refusing to, and asserting their own rebellious lordship, are just like the devil. Wake up...even the concept "to REBEL", implies they do not have to, but have made this stand. We KNOW we are no better than disbelievers and worthy of nothing better, but when He spoke to us (through the word or the Spirit) we wanted His offer in Christ, that's why we surrendered. God did not make us to surrender....the whole concept is a non-sequitur. To accept, to receive, to submit, to turn, etc., by nature of their meaning all speak of the option "not to" being equally available.

What say ye about Cain? If he had done what God (who he knew and believed in and audibly heard from) told him would remedy the problem, don't you think God would have kept His word to Cain? Of course He would have (God is not a man that He should lie) And if Cain COULD NOT do otherwise, would this not make God's offer a ruse, a false hope, a lie (God forbid)....Cain did not, and God foreknew He would not, but it is not because he could not...likewise Abraham was offering his son not because God irresistibly compelled him to....otherwise His comment that now that He had seen that Abraham would even not hold back his son, then He knew Abraham really trusted Him, would make no sense at all and incite confusion (and God is NOT the author of confusion)...

Of course God was telling the truth to Cain and of course Cain could have turned and done it right...God wills (prefers) all would come to repentance (but all will not)...but God gave man the dominion ("radah" to have rule over)...radah means God's plan was for man to have the power to rule on the earth (make the decisions...) and preferred he do it right, and even intervened (by grace) warning him, but once God has spoken, it was up to the man.

There are so many examples all through the scriptures...so do not tell me you were not taught or brought up in your theology because that would not be true (I know because I was you).

In His love

brother Paul
Click to expand...

So, because I don't believe in what you believe I am confused? You are wrong, some people are destined for salvation and some others are destined for destruction. Each of these groups of people accept and desire their destiny (althogh the enemies of God would prefer to destroy God instead of going to hell). Here you have some verses which prove what I am saying: Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:11, 1 Peter 2:8.

By the way, saying that this contradicts the traditions of the church means nothing. Augustine thought that enslaving people was permissible in this world? Do you agree with that too?
 
SergioL said:
But God chose to create those that would reject him. Maybe he wants them to be saved, but he knew from the very beginning that such a thing would not happen. So, why is it wrong to say that these people are destined to damnation (even if they have free will)?
Click to expand...
Because God does not create evil
 
Butch5 said:
Thanks! I believe everyone has to choose. God chose the Jews as a covenant people, however, not every Jew remained in the covenant. Some sought foreign Gods others were cut off from among the people. So, as a people they were chosen yet, their participation in the covenant was determined by each person. I believe it's the same with new covenant, God has chosen to save those who believe, whether or not one participates in the covenant is base on their decision to believe or not.
Click to expand...
Its based upon "surrendered" will, not free-will! We must "die" to be made alive...free-will is about as far from biblical obedience as one can get!
 
So, because I don't believe in what you believe I am confused? You are wrong, some people are destined for salvation and some others are destined for destruction.

I agree, but the cause is what is different as I see it in the scriptures. Destined does not equal causality for me. They are destined for destruction because God foreknew that these men with a will to make choices (like satan) would never repent, even after His many attempts to touch them and offer them (like Cain) a chance to go and do it right.

We see this all through the history of His relationship with Israel. He continuously blesses, over and over, and over and over brings them back. He does this by withdrawing His protective arm and letting come to the consequence of their way versus Yahweh. Eventually in Jeremiah He throws in the towel and tells Jeremiah (paraphrasing) "Do not even pray for this people for I will not hear."

Those destined to damnation would ultimately reject God and the knowledge of God (by their own will, so they are without excuse) and thus suffer that eternal destiny. The difference here is Calvin said they were each created for those purposes which is not the same as how you phrased it (so perhaps here is where you divide from the traditional Calvinist theology).

In Calvin’s Institutes III, 21, 5, Calvin tells us that eternal life and eternal damnation are ordained (but the word says God wills that all would come to repentance) that all are not created equal but some for eternal life and some for damnation.

Sad...if he were living now I would pray the Father forgive him for saying the works of evil are God's works....blasphemous I tell you...

In His love

brother Paul
 
Mitspa said:
Well that is a idea that some have.. He is all knowing and all powerful, but be sure that He has allowed a realm called the temporal realm, that He limits Himself in. Being the Ruler of the eternal realm while bringing into subjection to Christ the things in this temporal realm. So in the "eternal" sense of His Will...yes He is in complete control. But He has given man this temporal realm and man has given that authority to satan. Who is the "god of this age"
Click to expand...


I agree with this wholeheartedly.
 
Last edited:
Of course God allows evil to exist (for now) but again that is not the same as God intending what He created to be created as evil.

So again with the Hitler analogy...if God created Hitler with the purpose (His intent and purpose) of Hitler doing exactly what Hitler did (all those vile acts of atrocity and abomination)...then Hitler actually was doing the works God prepared for Him from before the foundation of the world, and was actually perfectly in line with the will of God (God forbid)...since the evil (I say, intentional malevolence) is the work of God and God's will then many, many, many, scriptures are a lie, in error, contradictory and worse...please, please, consider the implications of this analogy.

Now could this be what God has done? Of Course, He is God! But I see nothing like this in scripture...man's evil is always a enmity with God, His will, His word, and His works. Now some would say "But what if He did, would GOd then be unjust?" He would be unjust according to His revealed will (the whole counsel of Scripture and the sentiments exemplified by Christ when here on earth), but has done something similar through "INTERVENTION" at times. But if this was His intent and He did it, because I trust Him I trust all that He has decided and did is the best and most blessed one could hope for.

IMO Serg, calling the works of the evil one the works of God is just as blasphemous as calling the works of God the works of the evil one...but you may disagree...

In His love

brother Paul
 
Last edited:
Brother Paul said:
Those destined to damnation would ultimately reject God and the knowledge of God (by their own will, so they are without excuse) and thus suffer that eternal destiny. The difference here is Calvin said they were each created for those purposes which is not the same as how you phrased it (so perhaps here is where you divide from the traditional Calvinist theology).

In Calvin’s Institutes III, 21, 5, Calvin tells us that eternal life and eternal damnation are ordained (but the word says God wills that all would come to repentance) that all are not created equal but some for eternal life and some for damnation.

Sad...if he were living now I would pray the Father forgive him for saying the works of evil are God's works....blasphemous I tell you...

In His love

brother Paul
Click to expand...

Paul.

That great mind of yours, that has impressed me with logic and science, has been lost somewhere now?

Your on both sides of the fence here. God made some for evil because he forknew the were evil?

Yet God gave them chance after chance, though be made, forknew they would not make it.

Like saying I dropped my tv from 10 story window and forknew all those tiny tv pieces would never work again, yet I still tried daily to turn it on, giving the tv chance after chance.

You think God might be a bit brighter than this?

God created evil and good. Every thing he made though started good.

Jesus said... don't cut the tree down yet. Give it dung and after a year it don't produce fruit, after it got help, then cut it down.

Its not God's foreknowlede or else the tree would have been cut down as it encoumbered the ground and not election else a thorn tree would never been planted.

God say he knows the heart and the heart can change. So can a barren tree produce fruit with extra help
 
Like saying I dropped my tv from 10 story window and forknew all those tiny tv pieces would never work again, yet I still tried daily to turn it on, giving the tv chance after chance.

Not even remotely what I posted (remotely being a TV joke)...your assessment still implies God made the man intentionally drop the TV out the window (Or God Himself dropped it intentionally then expected it to work). Absurd! I am saying God did not make Hitler with the intention of Hitler doing all those evil things...Hitler did them by the counsel of his own will, therefore he is without excuse!
 
It never ceases to amaze me how so many can't grasp the basics of free will.

Subject to your own mental and physical limitations, you can do anything you bloody well please.
That is free will.

God knows all, including every minute detail of what we call past and future.
Kind of goes with the whole "Omniscient" package.

Nobody is predestined to do anything. We have all been completely free to accept or reject God from day one
(subject to whatever personal limitations we may have).
God's knowing what we will do is not in any way forcing us to do anything.
The fault of those who do evil lies squarely in the laps of the evil doers themselves.
If God stopped people from commiting evil acts, very few would be able to even get up in the morning.
God allows all this because you CANNOT HAVE FREE WILL UNLESS YOU ALLOW WILLS TO BE FREE.
You can suggest, you can cajole, you can even give them a handbook. But at the end of the day people must be allowed
to be as good or as bad as they wish, otherwise there is no freedom in the "free".
 
Brother Paul said:
Like saying I dropped my tv from 10 story window and forknew all those tiny tv pieces would never work again, yet I still tried daily to turn it on, giving the tv chance after chance.

Not even remotely what I posted (remotely being a TV joke)...your assessment still implies God made the man intentionally drop the TV out the window (Or God Himself dropped it intentionally then expected it to work). Absurd! I am saying God did not make Hitler with the intention of Hitler doing all those evil things...Hitler did them by the counsel of his own will, therefore he is without excuse!
Click to expand...

Now this statement is different than you above one. Pick a side Paul. If was on a pc I would show that God does not operate on election. He shows no far down the road forrknowledge of a man. He has said I will destroy you and I won't hear you or repent from it then a bit latter he repeats of the evil he planned.

He is a faith God, that only considers good for all he made. (Jer 29:11)

He responds to man, their choice to be blessed or cursed. He records those choices. Man's choice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top