Daniel 9

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by AllieWi, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. I am not sure if you were speaking to me but no I do not believe that. What days does your chart have for 31 and 32 A.D. as some have postulated that possibility, as historians say He was crucified in the 18th year of Tiberius, who came to power in 14 A.D.? Just curious as to the day in these two years....
     
  2. If you had read my study you'd have that answer. If I post the answer here, you still won't read it because it'll be too long. Frankly, I don't care if you believe me or not. No sweat off my nose. My goal is to find the truth, not to be right.
     
  3. The fourth beast began with Rome and is represented by John as having gone thru five prior forms of government: the Tarquin kings, the plebeians, the triumvirate, the Counselors, the republic. "Five are fallen one is and one is to come" those previous roman governments gave way to the empire of imperialism which was the Rome of Yeshua's day and is Daniel's 4th beast. That beast has gone into its two division stage as represented in the two legs of Nebuchadnezzar's colossal man.

    The two legs represent our current world desperation of power, the west vs the east. This balance of power is broken by the Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38. God will destroy the eastern power giving way to a one world power that will quickly divide into ten factions "ten toes" from where antichrist arrives. That will be the "one to come" according to revelation.

    Daniel points out that only two countries are not under antiChrist's control: Moab and Ammon which is modern day jordon.

    Isaiah points out that the hiding place for the Jews will be in Bozrah (Petra).

    Hosea says that Israel will ask messiah to return and the prayer of Israel at that time will be psalms 79-80 and their national confession shall be Isaiah 53, and then we read

    Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? "I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. "For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. "I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me. "I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth." (Isaiah 63:1-6 NASB)
     
  4. I read the part relative to our conversation at the time bro but I did not memorize it or copy and paste it...but its okay if you do not have it at your fingertips...and you are right, this is my goal also (and probably most people's here)...plus I think you worked really hard and are bright bulb in the lamp...but no two of us will agree on all things. I am sure we agree on the essential doctrines of the faith and know from whence our salvation cometh (and neither of us can or do take credit for that)...be well and may God's peace be upon you and yours!

    In His love

    brother Paul
     
  5. Great post Ab! Hits the nail right on the head...
     
  6. Thanks. As to Tiberius, he was co-regent from 9ad. That's when he got the real power. Sure, I've had people try to refute what I've written and I welcome it, but the vast majority of people only look at one thing: Tiberius, Cyrus, Herod, Daniel, Titus, calendar rules, historical assumptions, etc. But when you put them all together, as the scriptures do, you don't have many options. I find most forget that Jesus is a Jew, following all the Jewish laws and traditions (where they do not contradict the scriptures) and that has a bearing on events. When you do these types of studies, you're looking at the front of the tapestry and not the smallest of threads in the back that holds everything together. Gen 11 and 12 must be reconciled with Acts 7 as well as the Judges, Kings and the rest. All of the scriptures point to Jesus in one way or another. I've never found a piece of information that has yet to contradict with my study because I don't leave anything out. The Jews were looking for the Messiah at that time... why? Because they knew the signs and the oral traditions. My only goal was to understand the information given to us in the scriptures as the foundation and that no verse would be left out. Usshur is wrong as well as most if not all history books. I can boast such a thing because I believe the scriptures are without error. All I did was point out all the scriptures and how they refer to one another and did simple math. Now, if you have that same goal, you must do your own homework and tell me where I went wrong while addressing all the other threads of the tapestry. I want the truth and I believe the Lord gave it to us all, we just have to work at it. It's all spelled out in the scriptures. All I did was align it to our established calendars. Why do you think so many preach 360-day prophecy calendar when no such thing actually exists in the scriptures? Because they can't get their theory to fit what the scriptures say and the reality of this existence. God deals in reality, not fiction. Thanks again for the kind words.
     
  7. Yeah! I realize the incredible amount of work you did on this. You really put your heart and mind into it. It is vast and cross reference a lot of stuff. I just have a problem with timelines because having been presented with so many and knowing there are so many unknowable factors...even secular historical dating is often off. Egyptology for example, has Imhotep (depending on who you read) anywhere from 2300 B.C. to 1900 B.C.! Wow! Thats a 400 year variable...the Bible is indeed more precisely coordinated but even there, there is a lot of guess work when looking back (variances of a few years here or there either way...specific days and years...and like you so correctly pointed out, most do not even know about a year of ascension). So I may not be correct and you may very well be correct but I cannot say you are in all good faith.., so I cannot rely on your chronology as fact (though it is as good as others people have presented and by far more cross referenced). The Egyptologists did not even know then that Thutmoses was a title not a name and some of the Amenhoteps (nother title) were also Thutmoses's...so there timeline is quite confusing and cannot be accurately crossed with the Assyrian/Babylonian with the exception of where the cross on rare occasions.

    One thing I do want to say is that I also have had the word Tapestry given to me by the Spirit many years ago and see and searched out many of the finer threads that run through (in the various genealogies, the books of Kings, and so on,). These are so insightful a lot of Bible students miss so much thinking these are just lists of begats and such...if they are in there, God made sure they were there for a reason (as you yourself have discovered)...even when I was first a Christian (back in 1984) when I came to a section like this I saw it as monotonous...I missed so many hidden gems. So I know you do good work my brother and your motive and heart are in it for the right reason...the word Tapestry really enlightened me to how vast your grasp is...

    Now I suppose no one version is 100% accurate to the autographs, but have you ever studied the threads of the Tapestry through various modern versions? A lot of them disturb these threads (especially in the Tanakh)...this bothers me though I know they probably never took time to really sit down and study how they piece together. And finally I agree with you that understanding Jesus came as a Jew to people who culturally and otherwise thought as Hebrews (especially regarding the times and the calendar) and that all the Apostles and writers of the NT were also all culturally Jewish...this is important because it effects the theological outlook where so many (even brilliant clerics and scholars) put in the thinking and culture of the Greek mind or Latin mind...

    Anyway I talk too much, but even if I disagree with the details here and there? It is a good work God has sent you to explore...

    In His love

    brother Paul
     
  8. I think these two have to be looked at as one thought...

    verse 27 speaking of the prince that shall come (which I believe was Titus son of Vespasian)

    Daniel 9:26-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    I believe "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" is a direct reference to Isaiah 53:8, which I think Daniel must have been familiar with....

    All else picks up with this other prince...agree or not...

    brother Paul
     
  9. But just not enough to make a difference... well, thanks for the kind words.
     
  10. Have you ever studied WHO the "people of the prince" is? Arabs. I want to bring to you attention the importance of the second part: “…and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary…” Because Titus was the one in charge when the temple was destroyed, many equate this with him being the “prince” and thereby the “people” being Romans. The truth of the matter is the “prince” is the antichrist, not Titus. Therefore, where will the antichrist come from? First, Josephus states that Titus had no desire of destroying neither the city nor the temple. Hearing that the temple was on fire, he ran to the site with his commanders running behind him, and after them legions of Roman soldiers. It almost reads comical! Titus gesturing and yelling for the men to put out the flames, the soldiers completely ignored him and “neither any persuasions nor any threatenings could restrain their violence, but each one's own passion” Roman soldiers were renowned for their stiff obedience, yet these were blatantly disobedience. Why?
    Tacitus states that Titus went to Judea and found three legions there, left by Vespasian. “To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied by … a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews...”

    As you can see, the real soldiers, who were uncontrollable, even to the point of beatings, were Arabs. Every word in the Scriptures is important. In these verses, we see the Holy Spirit use the word “prince” and the historian Tacitus uses the word “Prince”. They do not mean the same person and I believe that is why today, so many pastors and authors use Rome as the seat of power for the antichrist. I remember when the European Union grew to ten nations and everyone started with “this is it, Jesus is coming!” The word “prince” used by the Holy Spirit was referring to the antichrist; Tacitus used it to refer to Titus. Scripture says that “he”, the “prince”, will confirm a covenant for one week. From this, we understand that the antichrist will sign a treaty with Israel for seven years.
    This is important because in order to understand the prophecies about the antichrist and the end times, you must know from where the antichrist comes from. Scriptures speak of “the Assyrian”:

    Micah 5:5-6 “And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.”
    Isaiah 10:24-25 “Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.”

    Verse 27 is about the Antichrist and not Titus. Titus wanted the temple for himself and despite his desire his disobedient soldiers set it on fire. Also Titus didn't sign any covenant with the Jews. I believe this 70th week is yet future. As even Jesus quoted this verse (Mat 24:15; Mar 13:14) about the abomination of desolation, which Titus did not do, and because Jesus said it was yet future it wasn't Antiochus IV Epiphanes since that occurred over 150 years before Christ's birth.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  11. Yes, I also was aware of these other forces but I think that Daniel was seeing the closer fulfilment (and I do not doubt the Anti-Christ could come out of the Arabs)...when he speaks of this causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease, I do not think anyone can associate this with any other event in history (even if there is a third literal Temple and re-establishment of sacrifices as some have conjectured...and in that camp two schools of thought...one such as this would suggest and the other who would suggest the possibility of the real Messiah literally and physically doing all of the sacrificial and ceremonial law, including all the feasts, during the 1,000 year millennial reign...but all this is speculation).

    But I am of the opinion (based on the scriptures given here) that it was due to the destruction under the command of Titus (whether or not he specifically gave the order) that the sacrifices and oblations ceased in Judaism. However the Arab connection is something worthy of exploration as an anti-type to be fulfilled later more literally (at least it is one possibility among a few, which given their history is quite logical to conclude).

    What do some of you others think about this scenario?

    brother Paul
     
  12. What Ab has said is pretty convincing but I have to say that the destruction of the Temple and the diaspora of 70 AD did effectively stop the animal sacrifices. And it is very hard to believe that animal sacrifice would be taken up again? Even harder to believe that it would be necessary in the millenial kingdom. Guess I never gave "sacrifices and oblations" due thought. I more or less have gone with a third temple being built but I don't see the how of this today. Just some stray thoughts but I did think that Christ prophesized the 70 AD destruction of the temple.
     
  13. Personally I consider the prince of 9:26 to be a Roman, the "little horn" of Daniel 7 who is the "beast" of Revelation 13, After the Rapture HE will make a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years and they, Israel will accept him as their Messiah. Then at the 3 1/2 year mark he will break the peace agreement by placing his image in the temple (Rev. 13). This is the abomination of desolation. What Israel thought to be the kingdoom will turn out to be the Great Tribulation.

    Messiah being cut off is the crucifixtion of Jesus on 4/3/33 A.D. The "people of the prince" is not the antichrist, but they are his people and they destroyed the city in 70 A.D. when Titus the Roman general destroyed the city.


    Yes, 9:27 is the anti-christ not Titus or Antiocous Eph.
     
    Intojoy likes this.
  14. See Ab...I knew many others believe this and as I said I do also but in type...

    Can either of you please reconcile the causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease with Anti-Christ when they already have ceased...Thanks
     
  15. Definition of oblation:
    oblation
    noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
    In Christianity, the offering up by the faithful of any gift for use usually by the clergy, the church, or the sick or poor. The bread and wine offered for consecration in the Eucharist are oblations. In the Middle Ages children dedicated to a monastery and left there to be brought up were called oblates. Later, oblates were laity who lived at or in close connection with a monastery but who did not take religious vows. Members of certain Roman Catholic communities take the title oblate (e.g., the Oblates Regular of St. Benedict).
    Another from Merriam:
    Definition of OBLATION
    1
    : the act of making a religious offering; specificallycapitalized: the act of offering the eucharistic elements to God
    2
    : something offered in worship or devotion : a holy gift offered usually at an altar or shrine

    It could simply mean, sacrifices and oblations, those things offered to God?
     
  16. Revelation 11:1-2 says
    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

    Since Revelation was penned after 70 AD there's to be a third temple. There is no other purpose for a temple than to execute sacrifices. None. Notice that these verse specifically state that the outer court would be given to the gentiles. If they built the temple today, it would reside 150 m from the Dome of the Rock, the exact distance any object can be built from a Mosque and in the Exodus dimensions would allow for a full temple without the outer court. With Daniel's prophecy, it all fits. 2300 sacrifices and they are stopped, the Two Witness killed after preaching for 1260 days, the sacrifices ceased, the abomination of desolation occurs and the Antichrist declares himself God, and Israel to flee to Petra for 1260 days and then the Lord returns to set up His 1000 kingdom without a temple.
     
  17. The millennial sacrifices are literal. No other way to take it unless we violate the strict literal hermeneutic and substitute it with the allegorical method. However, if every first coming prophecy was fulfilled literally, option one had to be literal fulfillment of the prophecies about the tribulation, and millennial kingdom. Secondary approach would be non literal but that is not warranted nor necessary because animal sacrifice will be an ordinance for millennial saints like communion is now for us. It will be a sacrificial system that is symbolic.

    There are too many prophetic detailed references about the millennial temple for the procedures in that future temple not to be literal.
     
  18. I don't understand your words. Are you saying that the millenium will have sacrifices? If so where does it say that? Scriptures please, because this is what I read:

    Revelation 21:22 (KJV)
    And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
     
  19. I will be glad to speak to your question Paul.

    In verse 27, "AND HE". HE refers back to THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME of verse #26.
    It predicts the coming of the Roman Antichrist at the start of the Tribulation.

    "HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK".
    The antichrist will promise to protect Israel for a 7 year time period.

    But "IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK HE SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE".
    Half way through the 7 year period, he, the A/c will break his promise with Israel and defile their temple.

    2 Thess. 2:4 confirms this where Paul declares that the antichrist, the man of sin WILL SIT.....
    "in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God.
    For the A/c to sit in the temple and declare to be God means that there will be another temple built in Jerusalem. My guess is that it will be one of the concessions given by the A/C to obtain the 7 year peace treaty.
    Up to this point in time, The Jews have believed that the A/C is their protector. It is at the mid point of the 7 years that his true intentions are known.

    Rev. 13:5 tells us that He will have only one half of the 7 year period left after he breaks the peace treaty with Israel.

    I personally believe that there will once again be animal sacrifices conducted at the new Temple.
     
  20. Great point AB! You and Major have taught me something here...I love it! Thank you Lord for my brothers and sisters
     

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