Daniel 9

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by AllieWi, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. Amen...
     
  2. You wear your humility well IntoJoy and it is very becoming...we all have a story don't we...God truly picks the strangest tales and makes them into victories...my own is equally as bad (though different) and I have heard a few here that would make one's hair raise up....

    Do not worry, you are everybody's equal...God calls each of us from our unique experience to be the person He can use for the purpose personally designed for each (Ephesians 2:10)....we do not always see the fruit of our seed (which is actually His) but it is "A Wonderful Life"...

    Once there was a preacher who preached forty years and never saw an altar call filled with seekers...He was dying thinking he had failed....but two of his personal disciples reached the multitudes because of this man's spiritual farming...one became a missionary church starter in Africa and started over 100 churches (1000s upon 1000s were saved through this man and the other was Dr. J. Vernon Magee of Thru the Bible....He died not realizing God's ultimate purpose but WOW!!! So so not feel small there is no small in this family...only God knows all your efforts at being a Christian has accomplished...so do not belittle yourself.

    In His love

    brother Paul
     
  3. Surely! That is what we are here for..................sharing our thoughts.
     
  4. Atonement in The Jewish Encyclopedia -The setting at one, or reconciliation, of two estranged parties—translation used in the Authorized Version for "kapparah," "kippurim." The root ("kipper"), to make atonement, is explained by W. Robertson Smith ("Old Testament in the Jewish Church," i. 439), after the Syriac, as meaning "to wipe out."

    Wellhausen ("Composition des Hextateuchs," p. 335) translates "kapparah" as if derived from "kapper" (to cover). The verb, however, seems to be a derivative from the noun "kofer" (ransom) and to have meant originally "to atone."

    Redemption = to redeem (qa’al), act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, set free...

    I believe the death, burial, and resurrection of God's Lamb has dealt with the transgression for all who will receive HIm and His finished work. Transgression needed to be dealt with and Atonement was God's design for that...Christ IS the only fully effectual atonement sacrifice. Through Christ He made an end to the transgression...

    brother Paul
     
  5. Daniel 9:24 (a)
    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city........"

    We all have seen or read the explination of the Seventy weeks. I have no illusions that anything I say will be new or unique to anyone. Just an explination of what I have learned over the years and you are welcome to accept or reject it.

    The Hebrew word for "seven" is SHABUA. That in turn means "a unit of measure".

    Itwould be the same as us saying a DOZEN of eggs or a GALLON of gas. By itself it can mean anything at all. Daniel has been reading the prophet Jeremiah about the captivity and the YEARS that were involved.

    Now when we go back to Daniel 9:2 we see......
    "In the first YEAR of his reigh I Daniel understood by books (Jeremiah) the nuumber of the YEARS, whereof the the Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophe, that he would accomplish SEVENTY YEARS in the desolations of Jereusalem".

    We can now see that the context for Daniel was YEARS and a week equaled 7 YEARS.
    1 week = 7 years.
    70 weeks = 490 years.
    70 weeks are divided into 3 peroids.
    1. 7 weeks.
    2. 62 weeks.
    3. 1 week.

    So now we can clearly see that it was Jeremiah who had been preaching and writing that the captivity of Israel was going to be for 70 years.

    WHY for 70 years?

    Because the 70 years was a specific number of years for Israel breaking the Sabatic Law. They broke that law and continiued doing it for 490 years. That means in those 490 years they violated the Sabbath exactly 70 times. Therefore God's judgment on them was for exactly 70 years.

    2 Chronicles 36:21 tells us...........
    "To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths, for as long as she lay desolate she kept the sabbath, to fulfill three score and ten years (70)".

    So we can see that Daniel is talking about a set of 7 YEARS which he calls a WEEK!

    When one reads and studies chapters 7 & 8 of Daniel it becomes obviouse that he thought that at the end of the 70 years the Jews, his people would go back to their land and the promised Messiah would come and the kingdom which all the prophets had promised would be set up.

    History has cleared up the apparent contradiction so that there is no contradiction at all. The 70 weeks, or Seventy Sevens give us 2 answers.

    1. The promised kingdom is not going to come immediatly.
    2. The Seventy Sevens must run their course.

    The 70 sevens fit into the Times of the Gentiles and run with them through time. By that I mean that they are broken up to fit into gentile times and history. It would be note worthy to understand that the word DETERMINED meand literally.........
    "cutting off".

    These 70 sevens are to be "cut off" as we will see in the next few verses because of the crucifixtion (cutting off) off Jesus, The Messiah.

    7 + 434 + 7 = 490 years!!!!
    7 + 62 + 1 = 70 weeks!!!!

    If we begin this at the to time of Neh. 2:1-8 which fits all the requirements of the decree to send the Jews back to Jerusalem, that hen gives a starting time of Nisan 445 B.C. The 1st 7 weeks which is 48 years gets us to 397 B.C. and to Malachi and the end of the Old Test.

    Sixty two weeks later, or 434 years and we are at the Messiah. From the 1st month of Nisan to the 10th of Nisan ,April 6 of A.D. 32 are exactly 173,880 days. Dividing them according to the Jewish year of 360 days, we come to 483 years which is 69 Sevens. That day is the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and offered Himself as the Messiah.

    There is not another prophecy in the Bible that is as accurate as is this one from Daniel.
     
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  6. Good post Major...only I believe Daniel had other books as well...of course Jeremiah's and Isaiah's being the most important two regarding this situation (obviously Jeremiah regarding the 70 years of captivity)
     
  7. No argument from me Paul. You are a brilliant theologian and I would tend to believe that.

    My personal thinking would be I think on how did he get a copy of Isaiah. I doubt the Chaldeans had any which means he would have had to bring it with him. Do you think at his young age then, he would take time to bring it with him?
     
  8. ****
    it is my opinion that this topic just has to many good posts not to go thru them and share insights on each one

    some different thoughts
    It is extremely important for everyone to keep in mind that these "things" we are talking about have to do only with Daniel's people, the JEWS. The events will take place in the Holy City which is Jerusalem. The Gentiles and the CHURCH are not in view in any way.
    I disagree ;
    the transgression being talked about here is that of original sin and not that of the Jews
    original sin remains upon us even if we are forgiven of our sins
    and so we must see what original sin did to us

    Adam and eve sinned and saw that they were naked
    was this bad?
    they thought so
    so they hid.
    -------------- but just who did they hide from ; and who didn't they hide from ?
    the simple answer is obvious they hid from God
    the answer to the second part however must be pondered
    did Adam hide from eve?
    they didn't !

    Adam and eve didn't hide from each other because they were "family"
    they hid from God ; and left the family of God

    now; all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
    but also; anyone born from a human father
    is from Adam's family which has left the family of God

    The transgression that is o be ended;
    is the loss of family with God .

    please note ; of the children of Jacob there are 12 sons and one daughter ;
    among these there are only two Jews
    Judah of coarse ; and Benjamin who was given to Judah for the sake of David
    so that he may have a tribe of Israel in his kingship
    and a son from the wife of Jacob whom he loved ( joseph being that other son )
    \
    replacement theology ;
    or the thought of the church taking the place of the Jews
    hasn't taken into account the other sons of Jacob (the northern tribes)
    and the fact God has been using them as well in this plan
    but this is a different conversation !
     
  9. Well my brother, I am going to have to disagree with you here. Maybe for the very 1st time.

    This prophecy concerns Israel, the Hebrew nation descended through Jacob and the city of Jerusalem. Six things dealing with sin and righteousness would be accomplished during the 490 years. The 1st 3 are negative and the last 3 are positive.

    1. "To finish the Transgression".

    That has reference to rebellion against God.

    2. "To make an end of Sin".

    That could quite naturally in this context refer to sin being put away during the Messiah's reign.

    3. "To make reconciliation for iniquity".

    That speaks of atonement for sin on the basis of a sacrifice. That seems to me to have been fulfilled in Christ's death on the cross.

    4
    . "To bring in everlasting righteousness".

    With sin having been taken care of in the 1st 3 statements, righteousness can now be a reality. This will be applied to Israel at the 2nd Coming of Christ Jesus at the end of the Tribulation Period and will in fact usher in the government of the Messiah.

    5.
    "To seal up the vision and prophecy".

    There will come a time when all visions and prophecy will be fulfilled or better said.....consummated.. They will then have no function.

    6.
    "To anoint the most high".

    This phrase has been taken at various times to refer to Zerubbabel's temple, Christ Himself, the Holy One, or the future millennial temple. The most natural use IMO would be to the anointing of a future temple when Messiah's reign will be started with righteousness. That seems to be the view in Ezekiel 41 & 42, together with actual animal sacrifices which will commemorate Christ's death on the cross.
     
  10. As far as these "things" we are talking about have to do only with Daniel's people, the JEWS---
    remember that the Tribulation in the Old Testament book of Jeremiah, and the prophet calls it the time of 'Jacob's trouble' because it will primarily center on the Jews in Israel.

    Then consider that in Eze 26:34 it is spoken of as the time when-Israel shall "Pass under the Rod; " and in Eze. 22:19-21, we read how that God is going to cast Israel into His "Melting Pot, " where they are to be refined as "gold is refined." See also Mal. 3:1-3, and Zech. 13:9. Daniel speaks of it as a "Time of Trouble" for his people, the Jews. Dan. 12:1.
     
  11. I do not know but I do know it would have been available to him...
     

  12. hi; its ok to disagree
    and sometimes we disagree because the speaker ( in this case me ) hasn't gotten his idea across well

    eze. 22:19-21 and 26:34 ; and it my point
    that Israel has the kings of Israel and is in fact the northern tribes and not Jews whom are referred to as the people with the king of Judah ( right? see that? )
    and the verse in Daniel ; it too has a qualifier
    { those whose name is written in the book of life}
    surely there are children of Joseph too ( a non Jew)
    who is in the land at that time "if" the stick of Ephraim and Judah are join

    so; we are saying the same thing (it will take place in Jerusalem)
    and we differ in that this is also for the northern tribe who aren't Jews
    ------ Jacob is Israel but Israel in Ezekiel are not the seen as the Jews
     
  13. I forgot ;
    why am I bringing this up?

    it has to do with "what sin" and "who did it"

    I don't think to end transgression is only a Jewish thing --- forgot to put that in the last post
     
  14. Agreed!
     
  15. No problem here mate!
     
  16. No responses in a couple of days so I think we can go on to the next verse.

    Daniel 9:25
    King James Version (KJV)
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    The words of verse 25 tell us that there is a beginning point for the 70 weeks of years during which the 6 events we discussed in verse 24 would be accomplished.

    There seems to be 3 possible dates in history that this starting point could be determined by.

    1). 538 B.C.
    Cyrus issued a command recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 and again in Ezra 1:1-4. However, that order clearly referred only to rebuilding the Temple and did not mention rebuilding the city.

    2). 458 B.C.
    Artaxerxes issued a decree to aid Ezra as he returned to Jerusalem. But this command recorded in Ezra 7:11-26 had nothing to do with rebuilding the city either. Ezra summarized the intent of the kings command in Ezra 7:27......................
    "........to beautify the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem".

    3). 445 B.C.
    This seems to be the date that satisfies all of the requirements of Scripture. At the time Artaxerxes gave permission to Nehemiah to go..............."unto the city of my father's sepulchers that I may build it". (Neh. 2:5).
    The command even mentions materials that were to be gathered in Neh. 2:8..................
    "........for the wall of the city.....".

    Unto The Messiah the Prince. That defines the ending point of the 1st 69 weeks of years, meaning 483 years which is said by the phrase of......"Shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks".

    They were certainly troublous times as when we read Nehemiah's book we see that the workers carried their swords and spears to work with them every day.
     
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  17. Was it 445? I get 457 as the year Artex sent forth Ezra (in his 7th year) and thus in his 20th year of reign (when he sent Nehemiah) that would be more around 440...but who really know precisely the year...483 years minus the 457 would make His public ministry (which lasted around 3 1.2 years according to John's gospel) as starting around 26 A.D. (born around 4 B.C. just before Herod's death He would have been around 30 years old)...just my spin but I know we will see this differently
     
  18. Almost... the Babylonian kings didn't count their ascension year so you're one year off... making Jesus' ministry start at 25 AD and dying the third Passover in 27AD, the only date viable for the holy week events.
     
  19. I think the Medo-Persian Kings knew it well...Ezra and Nehemiah grew up under Cyrus, Darius, and Artexerxes (Nehemiah was in his 20th year as King) so I disagree...but it is okay Ab we can agree to disagree...I am sure we agree on more things than we differ on.

    brother Paul
     
  20. Ok, but what do you do about dying on a Monday? 28 AD has 14 Nisan as a Monday.
     

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