Considerations Of Genesis 6:1-4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brother Paul said:
As for information on DNA I am a Clinical Trial Assistant by trade, trained in Biochemistry...

As for information that demonstrates spirit beings can become manifest in the flesh, I got that from all through the Bible...Gabriel for example appears to Daniel twice as a man...YHVH (I believe the Son, because Jesus tells us no man has ever seen the Father or ever heard His voice) also appears as a man to Joshua, Jacob, Manoah and his wife, etc.)...an angel appears as a man in Judges 19...two who are sent by YHVH in the tent of Abraham (also in the form of a man) to reign fire and brimstone down upon them from YHVH in heaven...all the malevolent spirits in the New Testament possess (control or indwell) people and even some pigs, and so on...

HOW a spirit can assume or manifest in a physical form or take one over, I cannot speak as to the details...

Some (like most Calvinists) believe it is only if God wills them to

Others (like RCCs, EOs, and Arminians) would say certain orders of angels have free will (like what we call Arch-Angels...like Gabriel, and the one we call Satan...who also have free will, thus the ability to rebel), Therefore some may be able to manifest into a flesh form of their own will (similar to our glorified bodies after the resurrection), others like the Seraphim are created with unalterable purpose and cannot step outside their realm.

However do not confuse ability with desire...I may desire to kill someone and drink their blood and I am certainly capable but the very thought (even mentioning it here) repels me and I would never ever do such a thing...I find it vile and ultimately depraved...someone else may live for it. Such is the nature of free will beings...one yields to the higher pullings of the Spirit and another to the beastial pullings of the flesh (with a whole spectrum of degrees of possibility in between)

In His love

brother Paul
Click to expand...

Good information to know Paul. I also am aware of those Bible occurrences but they do not tell how it can happen only that it did.
That was my main point and you just answered it.........
"HOW a spirit can assume or manifest in a physical form or take one over, I cannot speak as to the details..."

That I agree with 100%!!!

About the rest of your comment.....not so much.
 
Doesn't it say in the bible, that Cain's children lived less time than Seth's children? Is it too dangerous to explore these things?
 
Brother Paul said:
All is good my brother, all is good...(Hebrews 13:2)

In His love

brother Paul
Click to expand...

Amen bro and may I say that it is a pleasure to communicate with you without anger, pride and the need to be right raise its ugly head.

We all can never agree on everything but we can all be civil toward one another.

Blessings to you and we will talk again!
 
Silk said:
Doesn't it say in the bible, that Cain's children lived less time than Seth's children? Is it too dangerous to explore these things?
Click to expand...

That would be true Silk. IF........the correct interpretation is that the human line of Seth inter-married the human line of Cain thus producing human offsprings/children then YES, the line of Seth's children out lived Cain's.

Now the Bible does not say that in those exact words but the Bible does give the information and God gave us the ability to study and learn through the power of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16
"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and if profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect (Complete), thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

Now then when we consider Seth and Cain and their human children, if that is the correct teaching and not that of demon/fallen angels marrying human women and reproducing, we see the story of Cain’s line is the story of unregenerate MAN.
He Cain is exalting himself in defiance of God’s commandments (Gen. 4:23-24), using God given talents to build an Earth centered civilization in an attempt to glorify himself and defeat God’s plan.

Genesis 4:16-17
"Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch."

Cain was removed from Eden and went out and began to build a city.

Then when we look at the human line of Seth we see a story of the faithful. Due to man’s sin nature Cain’s line attracted many converts while Seth’s dwindled to a small remnant.

When the Great Flood came all the line of Cain perished along with all the accomplishments of their Earth centered civilization. That means the human line of Seth's children outlived Cain's line of children. Now IMHO there is a great lesson here to be learned IF--- IF we will just open our hearts.

Lets see if I can explain this properly to you and for ME this explains why the descendants from the "sons of god & the daughters of men" were humans and not a demonic blending of the demons and humans.

So then, from the line of Seth only Noah and his family were found faithful. They were preserved through the flood to begin again and the line of Seth ultimately fulfilled God’s promise and brought forth The Redeemer; the Son of God, born of Mary a descendant of Seth through Noah’s son Shem.

So then what is the lesson we can learn?

What we have in the story of Cain and Seth is IMHO a model of the age of man. At the End of the Age which we now live in which is the "Church Age/Day of Grace", the Great Tribulation will judge humankind according to spiritual lines. Those who have rejected God’s ways in favor of an Earth-centered life will perish (the spiritual line of Cain).

A small remnant will be preserved through this judgment to begin again (faithful Israel descended from Seth through Shem). But as it was with Enoch, another group in the line of Seth will be taken by God before the judgement comes. That group is the Church. One body, as Enoch was one body, and like Enoch born at Pentecost, charged with teaching the Gospel (Enoch means teacher) and commanded to walk with God in an unbelieving world. The Church will be taken by God and spared the Great Tribulation just as Enoch was taken by God and spared the Great Flood.

I hope this is a blessing.
 
OK - I like your post, Major but I'm not sure I agree with all of it. I thought I saw where Cain's Lamech died at 260 something as opposed to Jared who lived 800 years. I guess I was going toward the OP where it was said Cain's offspring were more violent. And I am now more leaning toward Cain's seed being on the ark. Without looking at my lost notes, I think? Enoch was one of the first lost and all we really know about him is "he walked with God". (cough - except the Book of Enoch...). But God took all the Patriarchs, starting when Noah was approaching 50, by mortal death - not rapture - before the flood. But I like your story's contrast.
 
Hello all...Gary here....I just signed up on this board and have been attempting to follow along with what everyone has been saying.

So... Hello to Paul, Silk, Major, Ravindran and Just Passing Thru....blessings to you all and good to meet you.


The identity of who the 'Sons of God' are in has become the major fork in the road as to how to understand the other scriptures.

Taking the 'Sons of God' to be terrestrial beings will lead you in one direction, and taking them to be celestial beings will lead you in a different direction.

Generally speaking, those who think they are celestial beings have given credence to the idea by thinking Jude would not have quoted from the Book of Enoch if he didn't think it was inspired.

Generally speaking, those who think they are terrestrial beings rely on Jesus saying the angels do not marry nor are given in marriage.

Of course the problems do not stop at either of these junctures, as they, in and of themselves, do not provide answers as to how these conclusions fit within a comprehensive view of the rest of the statements made in scripture concerning 'the spirits in prison,' or the 'angels that sinned,' or what is meant by saying 'they did not keep their first estate,' or 'leaving their own habitation,' the 'nephilim, giants,' and so forth.

Almost invariably, those who do believe the Sons of God in were celestial beings will also refer to the book of Enoch to supply the additional detail as to how this came about.

There is one word in that has huge implications concerning the timing of the events being described. As a backdrop, we know that the flood took place some 1650 years after God created Adam. Even though some at the time lived to be over 900 years old, 1650 years is till quite a long span of time.

The general view is that the phrase 'when men began to multiply' must refer to some point in time after the population had gotten quite large. Some from the terrestrial beings position might think it is referring to the point in time just 120 years before the flood. And those of the celestial beings position might refer you to the Book of Enoch and say it took place 'in the days of Jared,' which would have consisted of a span of time somewhere between about 625 and 1430 years after God created Adam.

Now, lets look again at and see how it reads:

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them."

Why did I underline the word 'began?' Because it sets the stage for the timeline as to when it was that the Sons of God took wives of all which they chose:

"......when men began to multiply.....the Sons of God ....took them wives of all which they chose."

Breaking it down further....it's not saying that the Sons of God took wives after the population had gotten quite large, its saying the Sons of God took wives when men began to multiply. When did men begin to multiply? According to the Book of Enoch, the 'Sons of God' descended sometime during 'the days of Jared,' but remember, Jared was not even born until some 465 years after God created Adam.

Are we really going to say men had just begun to multiply after some 465 years had already taken place? Hardly.

I am contrasting the time line discrepancy between the events described in scripture with those described in the Book of Enoch. There are also other things impacted by this timeline, and maybe we can look at those things in another post.


Blessings to you all...
 
Major said:
That would be true Silk. IF........the correct interpretation is that the human line of Seth inter-married the human line of Cain thus producing human offsprings/children then YES, the line of Seth's children out lived Cain's.

Now the Bible does not say that in those exact words but the Bible does give the information and God gave us the ability to study and learn through the power of the Holy Spirit.

"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and if profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect (Complete), thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

Now then when we consider Seth and Cain and their human children, if that is the correct teaching and not that of demon/fallen angels human women and reproducing, we see the story of Cain’s line is the story of unregenerate MAN.
He Cain is exalting himself in defiance of God’s commandments (), using God given talents to build an Earth centered civilization in an attempt to glorify himself and defeat God’s plan.

"Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch."

Cain was removed from Eden and went out and began to build a city.

Then when we look at the human line of Seth we see a story of the faithful. Due to man’s sin nature Cain’s line attracted many converts while Seth’s dwindled to a small remnant.

When the Great Flood came all the line of Cain perished along with all the accomplishments of their Earth centered civilization. That means the human line of Seth's children outlived Cain's line of children. Now IMHO there is a great lesson here to be learned IF--- IF we will just open our hearts.

Lets see if I can explain this properly to you and for ME this explains why the descendants from the "sons of god & the daughters of men" were humans and not a demonic blending of the demons and humans.

So then, from the line of Seth only Noah and his family were found faithful. They were preserved through the flood to begin again and the line of Seth ultimately fulfilled God’s promise and brought forth The Redeemer; the Son of God, born of Mary a descendant of Seth through Noah’s son Shem.

So then what is the lesson we can learn?

What we have in the story of Cain and Seth is IMHO a model of the age of man. At the End of the Age which we now live in which is the "Church Age/Day of Grace", the Great Tribulation will judge humankind according to spiritual lines. Those who have rejected God’s ways in favor of an Earth-centered life will perish (the spiritual line of Cain).

A small remnant will be preserved through this judgment to begin again (faithful Israel descended from Seth through Shem). But as it was with Enoch, another group in the line of Seth will be taken by God before the judgement comes. That group is the Church. One body, as Enoch was one body, and like Enoch born at Pentecost, charged with teaching the Gospel (Enoch means teacher) and commanded to walk with God in an unbelieving world. The Church will be taken by God and spared the Great Tribulation just as Enoch was taken by God and spared the Great Flood.

I hope this is a blessing.
Click to expand...
 
Ooops....sorry, I accidentally re-posted one of Majors' posts....I'm still learning how this site works so be patient with me !

I did forget to mention on my last post a couple of quotes from 3 different translations of the Book of Enoch that do not connect the thought of the Sons of God taking wives when men began to multiply but rather present the thought that the Sons of God took wives after men had already multiplied.

Here are the tree translations:

1) And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied (past tense) - Charles

2) And it came to pass, after the children of men had increased in those days, (past tense) - Lawrence

3) It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, (past tense)
-Shodde-

Blessings
 
Now then when we consider Seth and Cain and their human children, if that is the correct teaching and not that of demon/fallen angels marrying human women and reproducing, we see the story of Cain’s line is the story of unregenerate MAN.
He Cain is exalting himself in defiance of God’s commandments (Gen 4:23-24), using God given talents to build an Earth centered civilization in an attempt to glorify himself and defeat God’s plan.
Click to expand...

Hello Major-

Blessings to you. I was looking at the line of Seth and line of Cain situation.

Both Cain and Seth were physical sons of Adam and Eve, and then later had children in what would constitute their 'line' or their 'lineage.'

If we look at a chart, it appears that the line of Cain divided when Lamech took his two wives named Adah and Zillah. Adah then had Jabal and Jubal, and Zillah had Tubal-Cain and Naamah.

There doesn't seem to be any more information in scripture from this point on, as to what happened to Cain's line. The line of Seth, as you say, continued on bringing us up to the birth of Jesus.

The scriptures do say that Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and that he was of that wicked one, and that others have followed in this same way, called 'the way of Cain.'

There is, then, a line of demarcation between the two seeds, however this demarcation is physical only, and not spiritual. If the concept that 'he hath made of one blood all nations,' is true, which it is, then there would have been nothing preventing anyone in the line of Cain to be included in the group of those men who 'began to call upon the name of the Lord,' in Gen. 4:26.

The time in which it is stated that men began to call on the name of the Lord was when Seth had his son, Enos. This would have been around 230 years after God created Adam.

What this means, is that there would have been no restrictions placed upon the Sons of God (male believers) from taking wives from the line of Cain as long as they also were among those female believers who called upon the name of the Lord. The word 'men' calling on the name of the Lord has been translated 'people' in a number of versions. (NLT, NIV, ESV, DRB)



What it would also mean is that there would have been no restrictions on the Sons of God (male believers) from the line of Cain in marrying female believers in the line of Seth.

The blame was not to be placed upon the Sons of God in marrying the daughters of men, but rather that every imagination of the hearts was only evil continually. Saying the daughters of men were fair is a comprehensive statement that would define all women as being fair, not that they were being allured by some women who were more beautiful than others. It would be called 'natural affection,' in the New Testament.

If 'calling upon the name of the Lord' means the same thing as it does in later scriptures, and it does, then it has to do with salvation. If we acknowledge that '...all we like sheep have gone astray..' then why would those in the line of Cain need salvation any more than those in the line of Seth?

Blessings to you....Gary
 
An aside: Anyone interested in getting a copy of the book of enoch can get one (by Laurence) for 99 cents thru Barnes & Noble Nook books. Or I can lend them mine.

Hey Gary OneHope (waving):).
 
Onehope said:
Hello Major-

Blessings to you. I was looking at the line of Seth and line of Cain situation.

Both Cain and Seth were physical sons of Adam and Eve, and then later had children in what would constitute their 'line' or their 'lineage.'

If we look at a chart, it appears that the line of Cain divided when Lamech took his two wives named Adah and Zillah. Adah then had Jabal and Jubal, and Zillah had Tubal-Cain and Naamah.

There doesn't seem to be any more information in scripture from this point on, as to what happened to Cain's line. The line of Seth, as you say, continued on bringing us up to the birth of Jesus.

The scriptures do say that Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and that he was of that wicked one, and that others have followed in this same way, called 'the way of Cain.'

There is, then, a line of demarcation between the two seeds, however this demarcation is physical only, and not spiritual. If the concept that 'he hath made of one blood all nations,' is true, which it is, then there would have been nothing preventing anyone in the line of Cain to be included in the group of those men who 'began to call upon the name of the Lord,' in Gen. 4:26.

The time in which it is stated that men began to call on the name of the Lord was when Seth had his son, Enos. This would have been around 230 years after God created Adam.

What this means, is that there would have been no restrictions placed upon the Sons of God (male believers) from taking wives from the line of Cain as long as they also were among those female believers who called upon the name of the Lord. The word 'men' calling on the name of the Lord has been translated 'people' in a number of versions. (NLT, NIV, ESV, DRB)



What it would also mean is that there would have been no restrictions on the Sons of God (male believers) from the line of Cain in marrying female believers in the line of Seth.

The blame was not to be placed upon the Sons of God in marrying the daughters of men, but rather that every imagination of the hearts was only evil continually. Saying the daughters of men were fair is a comprehensive statement that would define all women as being fair, not that they were being allured by some women who were more beautiful than others. It would be called 'natural affection,' in the New Testament.

If 'calling upon the name of the Lord' means the same thing as it does in later scriptures, and it does, then it has to do with salvation. If we acknowledge that '...all we like sheep have gone astray..' then why would those in the line of Cain need salvation any more than those in the line of Seth?

Blessings to you....Gary
Click to expand...

Good stuff Gary!

It seems to me that you are saying that it was "humans"---sons of god that procreated with human daughters of men.

That has been the conversation as there are some of the thought that the Nephpilim were the offspring of fallen angels and human women thus producing some kind of hybrid race.
 
Onehope said:
Hello Major-

Blessings to you. I was looking at the line of Seth and line of Cain situation.

Both Cain and Seth were physical sons of Adam and Eve, and then later had children in what would constitute their 'line' or their 'lineage.'

If we look at a chart, it appears that the line of Cain divided when Lamech took his two wives named Adah and Zillah. Adah then had Jabal and Jubal, and Zillah had Tubal-Cain and Naamah.

There doesn't seem to be any more information in scripture from this point on, as to what happened to Cain's line. The line of Seth, as you say, continued on bringing us up to the birth of Jesus.

The scriptures do say that Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and that he was of that wicked one, and that others have followed in this same way, called 'the way of Cain.'

There is, then, a line of demarcation between the two seeds, however this demarcation is physical only, and not spiritual. If the concept that 'he hath made of one blood all nations,' is true, which it is, then there would have been nothing preventing anyone in the line of Cain to be included in the group of those men who 'began to call upon the name of the Lord,' in Gen. 4:26.

The time in which it is stated that men began to call on the name of the Lord was when Seth had his son, Enos. This would have been around 230 years after God created Adam.

What this means, is that there would have been no restrictions placed upon the Sons of God (male believers) from taking wives from the line of Cain as long as they also were among those female believers who called upon the name of the Lord. The word 'men' calling on the name of the Lord has been translated 'people' in a number of versions. (NLT, NIV, ESV, DRB)



What it would also mean is that there would have been no restrictions on the Sons of God (male believers) from the line of Cain in marrying female believers in the line of Seth.

The blame was not to be placed upon the Sons of God in marrying the daughters of men, but rather that every imagination of the hearts was only evil continually. Saying the daughters of men were fair is a comprehensive statement that would define all women as being fair, not that they were being allured by some women who were more beautiful than others. It would be called 'natural affection,' in the New Testament.

If 'calling upon the name of the Lord' means the same thing as it does in later scriptures, and it does, then it has to do with salvation. If we acknowledge that '...all we like sheep have gone astray..' then why would those in the line of Cain need salvation any more than those in the line of Seth?

Blessings to you....Gary
Click to expand...

And the same to you Gary and welcome! I look forward to discussions with you as we all try to learn and grow.

Major
 
Genesis 4:26 tells us that Seth also bore a son and his name was Enos, and it was at this time that men began to call on the name of Yah’hoveh (the Lord who is). Now Seth was one man, and Enos was one man, but men is a plural and literally means desecrated, polluted, or fallen.

So according to the actual word of God, there is nothing to tell us this only refers to Seth and his son. In fact it says nothing (zero, zilch, nada) to indicate those who began to call upon the name of YHVH were only these two (albeit before seeking God they would be among the desecrated, polluted, fallen humans). It is quite possible the use of the plural (men) may have included some of Cain’s offspring as well. The reason I point this out is because some (not here) drawing a distinction between the two lines use a huge black marker not indicated…it is likely that before the spiritual distinction (those who called and those who remained fallen) there already were intermarriages between SOME (albeit not many, but who knows the extent of it, the word is silent) of Seth’s offspring and Cain’s offspring.

What we have in Genesis does not tell the entire story including every detail of human existence, it merely brings out what is significant to show the effects of the fall until Noah, though whom Abraham comes, to whom the seed promise (Genesis 3:15) carries on after the flood. This is like when we have the story of Cain and Abel…yes they were Adam and Eve’s first two, but by the time we get to their story they are grown, each with their own vocations (and probably their own children)…it is most likely that during the time between their birth and the recorded event (which God has decided is significant for us to know about) Adam and Eve continued to be fruitful and multiplied every year or so…

The point here is that the men who began to call on the name of Yah’hoveh were simply among fallen men (desecrated, polluted by the fall). And nothing tells us they were only Seth and his son Enos, nor even that Seth was one of these. Whereas the word is silent regarding this, mere speculation is a convenience but not reliable truth. The truth is we cannot know this ONLY refers to the sons of Seth (since it only mentions his having only one son at this time).

In His love

Brother Paul
 
The general view is that the phrase 'when men began to multiply' must refer to some point in time after the population had gotten quite large. Some from the terrestrial beings position might think it is referring to the point in time just 120 years before the flood. And those of the celestial beings position might refer you to the Book of Enoch and say it took place 'in the days of Jared,' which would have consisted of a span of time somewhere between about 625 and 1430 years after God created Adam.
Click to expand...

I made a mistake in saying the 'days of Jared' consisted of a span of time somewhere between about 625 and 1430 years after God created Adam.

The 'days of Jared' consisted of a time span of 962 years, however he was not born 'about 625' years after God created Adam. Rather, he was born about 465 years after God created Adam.

Blessings...
 
shaneh (translated years), in the Hebrew, simply means a division of time, and even can mean a lifetime...therefore maybe when it says Adam lived X amount of years (shaneh) that may have meant something very different to them than a 365 day solar year and maybe even not be referring to the 360 day lunar year they counted by after the flood. In fact even a "year" may have been a different length of time before the flood than after. But the point is, it could even have been a counting of months (new moons) or or seasons (whether 2 or 4 we cannot know)...

Just a thought...check out the language and see what you think (separate what it actually says from what you are taught it means)
 
The reason I point this out is because some (not here) drawing a distinction between the two lines use a huge black marker not indicated…it is likely that before the spiritual distinction (those who called and those who remained fallen) there already were intermarriages between SOME (albeit not many, but who knows the extent of it, the word is silent) of Seth’s offspring and Cain’s offspring.
Click to expand...

Hello Brother Paul- Very good point!

I like the part about the 'spiritual distinction' you made between 'those who called' and 'those who remained fallen.'


And nothing tells us they were only Seth and his son Enos, nor even that Seth was one of these. Whereas the word is silent regarding this, mere speculation is a convenience but not reliable truth. The truth is we cannot know this ONLY refers to the sons of Seth (since it only mentions his having only one son at this time).
Click to expand...

That is another good point. As long as the phrase 'the sons of Seth' is used in the way it normally appears throughout scripture, then, as you say, it would not include Seth himself.

If the context includes others then it is usually phrased differently, such as-

"...and thou (Noah) shalt come into the ark, thou, (Noah) and thy sons, (Noah and his sons) and thy wife, (Noah and his wife) and thy son's wives (Noah's son's wives) with thee..."

The mistake is in calling it a 'godly line,' which implies things not stated. Yes, certain men within that line, such as Enoch and Noah are referred to as being godly men, but it is along the same line as saying "Israel is God's chosen people."

Jesus openly told the Jews that he knew they were Abrahams seed, yet he said If God was your father, you would love me, and in another place told them they were of their father the Devil.

However, within this same line of Abrahams seed we see Paul, who was of the tribe of Benjamin, but was converted and sent to the nations to preach the gospel.

Yes, there is a distinction that plays a part between the seed of Abraham and the Gentile nations, but it is not to be concluded that all the Gentile nations are sinners or that all the seed of Abraham are righteous.

Blessings to you....
 
That is another good point. As long as the phrase 'the sons of Seth' is used in the way it normally appears throughout scripture, then, as you say, it would not include Seth himself.

Only such a phrase never appears in the scriptures...I guess the point I made was that "men" in this statement IMO includes more than just Seth and his son Enos...which if true would include some genetically of Cain as well...

You know some people actually think Cain is the offspring of the serpent in physical lineage...wow!

Anyway, no argument here, just thought I would put it into the mix...in the Hebrew (the language God chose to say these things in) the lines are not as clearly drawn as is often assumed by many of us more influenced by the modern evangelical viewpoint. It changes nothing pertinent to our faith or our salvation in Christ...(thanks be to the Lord)...

In His love
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top