As you wish.
Afterlife
- Thread starter MMurphy
- Start date
As you wish.
Why are you intent on being deceptive?
Hell in the OT:
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. KJV
2Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; KJV
Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? KJV
Job 26:6 Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. KJV
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. KJV
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. KJV
Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. KJV
Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them. KJV
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. KJV
Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. KJV
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. KJV
Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. KJV
Prov 7:27 Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. KJV
Prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell. KJV
Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? KJV
Prov 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. KJV
Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. KJV
Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. KJV
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. KJV
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. KJV
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. KJV
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: KJV
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. KJV
Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase [thyself even] unto hell. KJV
Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. KJV
Ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto [them that be] slain with the sword; and [they that were] his arm, [that] dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. KJV
Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. KJV
Ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty [that are] fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though [they were] the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. KJV
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: KJV
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice. KJV
Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: KJV
ALL the verses above are Sheol.
- Original: שׁאל שׁאול
- Transliteration: Sh@'owl
- Phonetic: sheh-ole'
- Definition:
1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a. the underworld
b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1. place of no return
2. without praise of God
3. wicked sent there for punishment
4. righteous not abandoned to it
5. of the place of exile (fig)
6. of extreme degradation in sin
- Origin: from H7592
- TWOT entry: 2303c
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
H7585 שְׁאוֹל שְׁאוֹל sh'owl (sheh-ole') (or shol {sheh-ole'}) n-f.
1. Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates
[from H7592]
KJV: grave, hell, pit.
Root(s): H7592
Jesus Himself speaks for the conditions of Hades (Hell):
- Original: ᾅδης
- Transliteration: Hades
- Phonetic: hah'-dace
- Definition:
1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
- Origin: from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492
- TDNT entry: 03:26,2
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Location
Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Tormented:
- Original: ὀδυνάω
- Transliteration: Odunao
- Phonetic: od-oo-nah'-o
- Definition:
1. to cause intense pain
2. to be in anguish, be tormented
3. to torment or distress one's self
- Origin: from G3601
- TDNT entry: 5:115,*
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
Sheol is not hell.
These terms are not interchangeable even if the scholars of King James time said so.
Just like the Vulgate fouling up Lucifer and then worse, both the Vulgate and the KJV confusing Jesus with Lucifer as a light bearer, we have to go back to the original words and not their meanings after revision. Then must use context.
Trunk.
Is it the nose of an elephant?
Is it something you wear to swim?
Is it the torso?
Is it the thickest part of a tree?
Is it something you stow things into?
Is it part of a car?
Context, context, context.
When the Greeks introduced the concept it had TWO areas.
One for the blessed dead and one for the wicked dead.
Is that anything like what the King said? Blessed dead go to hell? Did he ever say that?
Correct vocabulary with correct context.
Or else we'll be seeing unicorns as they were mentioned in the KJV.
These terms are not interchangeable even if the scholars of King James time said so.
Just like the Vulgate fouling up Lucifer and then worse, both the Vulgate and the KJV confusing Jesus with Lucifer as a light bearer, we have to go back to the original words and not their meanings after revision. Then must use context.
Trunk.
Is it the nose of an elephant?
Is it something you wear to swim?
Is it the torso?
Is it the thickest part of a tree?
Is it something you stow things into?
Is it part of a car?
Context, context, context.
When the Greeks introduced the concept it had TWO areas.
One for the blessed dead and one for the wicked dead.
Is that anything like what the King said? Blessed dead go to hell? Did he ever say that?
Correct vocabulary with correct context.
Or else we'll be seeing unicorns as they were mentioned in the KJV.
Sheol is referred to as hell, but not the place of eternal punishment. We have to always check the context for its us. Sheol(or Hades) is the grave, or in other words, it is the place where the spirits of the unsaved dead wait for their particular resurrection to judgment.
Dave, Dave, Dave. I simply do not know what to say to you.
The Bible is clear that our choice, for Him or against Him, is made in this world, here and now. There is no mention of a second chance in the Bible, or a time when all people will be changed and restored to the Lord. This view of universal salvation is clearly mythology that has crept into the Christian world. It gives a more comfortable picture than judgement and death eternally for those we know and love, but a second chance is false hope.
"Sheol" is the Hebrew for the place of torments where the unsaved go until the 2nd Resurrection where they all will be realeased into the Lake of Fire.
"Hades" is the Greek name for the same place.
In the Old Test. to descend into Sheol was the penalty for sin Dave.
Psalms 55:15 ESV says.......
"Let death steal over them; let them go down to Sheol alive; for evil is in their dwelling place and in their heart."
Proverbs 9:18 .......
"But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol."
Job even describes it as Destruction in Job 26:6.......
"Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering."
Then we have Psalms 88:11......
"Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,or your faithfulness in Abaddon".
Do you grasp Duet. 32:22........
"For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol,
devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains".
Now according to the Scripture there are indeed 2 compartments in Sheol/Hades.
One is the place of torments and the other is Paradise or as Luke 16 says, "Abrahams Bossom.". It is Paradise that the thief went to and it is Paradise that Jesus took with Him at his ascention. The wicked dead are STILL in Torments and will stay there until the 2nd Resurrection of the dead which at that time they will be placed into the Lake of Fire.
CONTEXT????
Revelation 20:10
"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."
Verse 15 goes on to say............
"15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. "
Now this is really easy and I will be very nice. I guess you can try to suppress these scriptures and say they don't mean what they say.. But if you do, you are clearly NOT believing what the Bible is directly saying to all of us.
If you choose to reject these words, then there is nothing left to talk about because right there is the disconnect between us.
I believe what the Bible says and you DOUBT what it says. There is NO other explination possible Dave!
Why did you stop at 15?
Continue on and you'll get to the part that matches all of the destruction for sin in the OT and Jesus in Matthew 10.
Last edited:
Again we are talking Hebrew and English and not using the whole of Scripture and history as a modifier.
Anyone can cherry pick some scriptures to make God sound like anything they want. That's how the prosperity preachers do it.
We have to get into all of it.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Hades isn't hell.Why are you intent on being deceptive?
Hell in the OT:
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. KJV
2Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; KJV
Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? KJV
Job 26:6 Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. KJV
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. KJV
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. KJV
Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. KJV
Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them. KJV
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. KJV
Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. KJV
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. KJV
Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. KJV
Prov 7:27 Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. KJV
Prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell. KJV
Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? KJV
Prov 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. KJV
Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. KJV
Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. KJV
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. KJV
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. KJV
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. KJV
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: KJV
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. KJV
Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase [thyself even] unto hell. KJV
Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. KJV
Ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto [them that be] slain with the sword; and [they that were] his arm, [that] dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. KJV
Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. KJV
Ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty [that are] fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though [they were] the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. KJV
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: KJV
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice. KJV
Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: KJV
ALL the verses above are Sheol.
- Original: שׁאל שׁאול
- Transliteration: Sh@'owl
- Phonetic: sheh-ole'
- Definition:
1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a. the underworld
b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1. place of no return
2. without praise of God
3. wicked sent there for punishment
4. righteous not abandoned to it
5. of the place of exile (fig)
6. of extreme degradation in sin
- Origin: from H7592
- TWOT entry: 2303c
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
H7585 שְׁאוֹל שְׁאוֹל sh'owl (sheh-ole') (or shol {sheh-ole'}) n-f.
1. Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates
[from H7592]
KJV: grave, hell, pit.
Root(s): H7592
Jesus Himself speaks for the conditions of Hades (Hell):
- Original: ᾅδης
- Transliteration: Hades
- Phonetic: hah'-dace
- Definition:
1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
- Origin: from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492
- TDNT entry: 03:26,2
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Location
Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Tormented:
- Original: ὀδυνάω
- Transliteration: Odunao
- Phonetic: od-oo-nah'-o
- Definition:
1. to cause intense pain
2. to be in anguish, be tormented
3. to torment or distress one's self
- Origin: from G3601
- TDNT entry: 5:115,*
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
No duh! You know what it is. Why don't we call Rome by it's real name, Roma!? Hades is translated hell, sheol is translated hell, why don't we use hades, sheol, tartaroo and geenna?
- Original: ᾅδης
- Transliteration: Hades
- Phonetic: hah'-dace
- Definition:
1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
- Origin: from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492
- TDNT entry: 03:26,2
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Location
- Original: שׁאל שׁאול
- Transliteration: Sh@'owl
- Phonetic: sheh-ole'
- Definition:
1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a. the underworld
b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1. place of no return
2. without praise of God
3. wicked sent there for punishment
4. righteous not abandoned to it
5. of the place of exile (fig)
6. of extreme degradation in sin
- Origin: from H7592
- TWOT entry: 2303c
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
- Original: ταρταρόω
- Transliteration: Tartaroo
- Phonetic: tar-tar-o'-o
- Definition:
1. the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
- Origin: from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Original: γέεννα
- Transliteration: Geenna
- Phonetic: gheh'-en-nah
- Definition:
1. Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
- Origin: of Hebrew origin H1516 and H2011
- TDNT entry: 11:57,1
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Odd Jesus would misuse a word (NOT!) hell when it was just a valley south of Jerusalem!
Mark 9:43-48 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (Geenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (Geenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (Geenna) fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
MMurphy
Inactive
Perhaps we are not talking about the same thing. What you saying is certainty I don't discount, but I would call that faith. I accept the Word on faith and by consequence also accept what it says on faith. I don't see anyway to get around the faith aspect unless you've had some divine inspiration or have actually experienced a visit from God. But, I think you would agree that is an exceedingly rare occasion and most of us should not expect it.
Also about the hyperbole, let me be clear, I was not looking to disparage or misconstrue the words of the Lord, I was only looking to break your confidence that there were more people in Hell than there were in Heaven. There may be, but instead of looking at the words as a revelation, it is probably more beneficial to look at them as a lesson, namely, the "popular" thing is not always the "right" thing. I don't know of any mainline church, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or Anglican/Episcopal which holds it as dogma that more people go to Hell than Heaven--except, for WBC.
MMurphy
Inactive
Also I didn't mean to suggest you were not hoping for everyone's salvation, but certain comments by you and others seemed to indicate an indifference towards the massively horrific loss of human souls to hell which was troubling to me.
As for hyperbole again, I wanted to also iterate that hyperbole was a common literary tool in Greek. There is one translation were Jesus literally says, you must hate you parents to be my disciple, and anyone who doesn't hate his parents cannot be my disciple. No one in their right minds thinks Jesus is indicating that one must hate their parents, but rather that you must Love Him more than anything else.
The Camel and the eye was another one, although I have actually heard that the eye of a needle was a narrow entrance to a city which was so narrow that it required whoever rode in to unload whatever the camel was carrying.
Cutting off your arms and plucking out your eyes was yet another one (I actually briefly considered this as a command), but it is probably meant as a simply warning that you must remove the things from your life that cause you to sin.
There are also scripture that allude to everyone being saved, but I like you don't believe we're able to make a sweeping declaration, but there is hope for the possibility.
I'm sorry if I offended you in the post though, it wasn't my intention.
Agree. Seems pretty basic.
That is a judgment based on nothing. I have not met anyone here who bears any indifference toward what God tells us will be a great number of people who will miss the Kingdom.
What happens to all cast into the fire pit at Gehenna?
It burns until NOTHING remains.
But the spirit continues. Fire cannot consume spirit.
HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
Why not? Earthly fire perhaps.
Brimstone is an earthly substance. It doesn't extinguish spirit.
There is NO Revelation 20:21-25!!!!!!
There is however a Rev. 20:14-15 and it says that the evil, wicked lost are still in the lake of fire....CONTEXT!
Is God good...........Yes!
Can God do evil things? NO!
If God does things that evil doers do can he be God.........God does not do what evil doers do!
YOU are having to work really hard on this aren't you?
You can always tell when you have the correct doctrine. Everything fits into place without any arguments/