Afterlife

[MMurphy]

Scripture tells us that we are to rely on the Holy Spirit's illumination to gain insights into the meaning and application of Scripture (John 16:12-15, 1 Corinthians 2:9-11). It is the Holy Spirit's work to throw light upon the Word of God so that the believer can assent to the meaning intended and act on it. The Holy Spirit, as the "Spirit of truth" (John 16:13), guides us so that "we may understand what God has freely given us" (1 Corinthians 2:12). This is quite logical: full comprehension of the Word of God is impossible without prayerful dependence on the Spirit of God, for He who inspired the Word (2 Peter 1:21) is also its supreme interpreter.

Illumination is necessary because man's mind has been darkened through sin (Romans 1 :21), preventing him from properly understanding God's Word. Human beings cannot understand God's Word apart from God's divine power:

Ephesians 4:18 (NLT)
Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him.

It is part of Holy Spirit's ministry is to illumine the truth to us. He works in our spirit and ministers to our minds, as the spirit of Truth.

John 14:7; 15:26; 16:13 (NLT)
If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

26 “But I will send you the Advocate —the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me.

13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

Holy Spirit doesn’t guide into interpretations that contradict each other!

Yes so how do we know which interpretation is from the Holy Spirit?

By its fruits.

What are the fruits of the spirit?

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Your posts have frequently been devoid of all of these. Except maybe for some militant form of faithfulness.

 

[Euphemia]

Yes so how do we know which interpretation is from the Holy Spirit?

By its fruits.

What are the fruits of the spirit?

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Your posts have frequently been devoid of all of these. Except maybe for some militant form of faithfulness.

The fruit is not indicative of Holy Spirit confirming the word to us. The spiritual fruit is found in the life of the believer. Holy Spirit quickens the truth of the word to us. We know that we know that we know, together with the confirmation of other scriptures and with the agreement of people that God has blessed us with who know the word and are trustworthy followers of Christ.

I appreciate your criticism. It assures me I am on the right track. Thanks!

 

[MMurphy]

The fruit is not indicative of Holy Spirit confirming the word to us. The spiritual fruit is found in the life of the believer. Holy Spirit quickens the truth of the word to us. We know that we know that we know, together with the confirmation of other scriptures and with the agreement of people that God has blessed us with who know the word and are trustworthy followers of Christ.

I appreciate your criticism. It assures me I am on the right track. Thanks!

In all things, interpretation of scripture or life or making posts on this forum, if your words do not bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit then they are not from the Holy Spirit. You are trying to twist this to justify you saying things that are not gentle, loving, kind and certainly not peaceful.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Not so Dave. Do we just pretend that the following verse do not exist?????

Rev. 20:10.......
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Then following the 2nd Resurrection the wicked lost, dead are placed into the same lake of fire as the A/C and false prophet.

Rev. 20:14.....
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

These are real verse in the Bible. What do you prepose we do with them in order to make your wants come true?

Why do you pretend all the verses that say the wicked are destroyed don't exist? There are way more verses that talk about the wicked being destroyed than there are verses about Torment and the Torment verses are only in highly symbolic apocalyptic books.

 

[Euphemia]

In all things, interpretation of scripture or life or making posts on this forum, if your words do not bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit then they are not from the Holy Spirit.

Yes they do.

You are trying to twist this to justify you saying things that are not gentle, loving, kind and certainly not peaceful.

I see the bad fruit of intolerance and the lack of kindness, goodness and gentleness in that.

 

[MMurphy]

Where in scripture does it say the Holy Spirit will bear fruits other than these?

 

[Where is the Messiah]

In all things, interpretation of scripture or life or making posts on this forum, if your words do not bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit then they are not from the Holy Spirit.

I agree with this statement. It seems basic.

 

[Euphemia]

Where in scripture does it say the Holy Spirit will bear fruits other than these?

Did you know that we may consider the people who come to Christ to whom we have ministered in any way at all for Christ are considered our fruit? They are our spiritual children (some we may never even know) that have come to Christ based on the simple seed we have sown---sometimes not even known to us) and at the judgment seat of Christ, we will be given reward for it. There will be so many results that come from simply doing what God has ordained us to do without our even knowing it that we will be so gloriously blessed one fine day!

 

[MMurphy]

Yes they do.



I see the bad fruit of intolerance and the lack of kindness, goodness and gentleness in that.

Really? You've said in this very thread "Hopeful universalists have no place in the Kingdom." You've also said "Even Moral atheists will not see the Kingdom." If I was so intolerant why would I want to see EVERYONE is heaven? You've been the one in this thread saying how many people will not make it and how they'll be tortured forever and ever.

As for kindness, goodness and gentleness, sure, I don't always speak with the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I never claimed that I did, but I will defend others and call out malice if I see it and I've become frustrated by your unwillingness to listen to anyone. In all of your posts you have this attitude that what you say HAS to be right. I can admit right now, I've learned a lot about annihilationists and I thought they just didn't like the idea of Hell, but now I see that they actually have good scriptural support for their theory, even though I don't agree with it. The only way this has been possible is for me to be humble and recognize that I'm not always right, but I will always follow my heart.

I've posted things 10 minutes ago that I don't think anymore. But, I'm telling you open-mindedness and humility are two sides of the same coin and if your not being open minded, your not being humble, and that is what got the Pharisees into trouble.

 

[MMurphy]

Did you know that we may consider the people who come to Christ to whom we have ministered in any way at all for Christ are considered our fruit? They are our spiritual children (some we may never even know) that have come to Christ based on the simple seed we have sown---sometimes not even known to us) and at the judgment seat of Christ, we will be given reward for it. There will be so many results that come from simply doing what God has ordained us to do without our even knowing it that we will be so gloriously blessed one fine day!

The fruit of faithfulness. I never disparaged this truth.

 

[Euphemia]

Really? You've said in this very thread "Hopeful universalists have no place in the Kingdom." You've also said "Even Moral atheists will not see the Kingdom." If I was so intolerant why would I want to see EVERYONE is heaven? You've been the one in this thread saying how many people will not make it and how they'll be tortured forever and ever.

As for kindness, goodness and gentleness, sure, I don't always speak with the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I never claimed that I did, but I will defend others and call out malice if I see it and I've become frustrated by your unwillingness to listen to anyone. In all of your posts you have this attitude that what you say HAS to be right. I can admit right now, I've learned a lot about annihilationists and I thought they just didn't like the idea of Hell, but now I see that they actually have good scriptural support for their theory, even though I don't agree with it. The only way this has been possible is for me to be humble and recognize that I'm not always right, but I will always follow my heart.

I've posted things 10 minutes ago that I don't think anymore. But, I'm telling you open-mindedness and humility are two sides of the same coin and if your not being open minded, your not being humble, and that is what got the Pharisees into trouble.

Universalism is a false group. Identification with it in any way sends up red flags.

Atheists deny Jesus Christ. they can be as moral as a saint but they Are not saints and if they die in that state of unbelief, they will suffer the condemnation of god. That isn't judgment or harsh....it's the truth that God speaks.

You are intolerant of those who believe and speak the word of God, it seems. I hope that isn't true, but by what you say here in this forum, that is what comes through loud and clear.

Open-mindedness is not a spiritual fruit. It is a worldly commodity. What God teaches us we are to guard well against it being diluted. One can hold fast to truth and be uncompromising and maintain humility. Standing strong on biblical truth---not open-mindedness---and humility go together.

 

[Euphemia]

The fruit of faithfulness. I never disparaged this truth.

I never mentioned it.

 

[MMurphy]

Universalism is a false group. Identification with it in any way sends up red flags.

It is no worse than Calvinism. Both disparage the importance of choices made in this life.

Atheists deny Jesus Christ. they can be as moral as a saint but they Are not saints and if they die in that state of unbelief, they will suffer the condemnation of god. That isn't judgment or harsh....it's the truth that God speaks.

Morality is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so you must recognize the possibility that those who you think are damned might actually be saved. Jesus spoke of this that the judgment of souls will yield unexpected results.

In any case, that doesn't bother me, I don't believe atheists will be saved, but I'm surely not going to deny the power of the Holy Spirit or the sovereignty of God.

You just seem to have an intolerance for them.

You are intolerant of those who believe and speak the word of God, it seems. I hope that isn't true, but by what you say here in this forum, that is what comes through loud and clear.

That is absolutely absurd and offensive! I have not once said anything to that effect. We are having a theological discussion and the mere fact that we can have one is proof that we don't have a consensus. You are also suggesting here that what you say is the "word of God" which is highly contentious.

Open-mindedness is not a spiritual fruit. It is a worldly commodity. What God teaches us we are to guard well against it being diluted. One can hold fast to truth and be uncompromising and maintain humility. Standing strong on biblical truth---not open-mindedness---and humility go together.

There is a difference between an open-mind and standing up for what right. If I see someone being hurt by someone else, of course I will stand up for him. But I will also listen to various opinions and spiritual teachers and respect what they have to say, because that is humble. The problem with what your saying is that Biblical truths to you are what you determine. Having an open mind means that you listen to others, take them in with thoughtful consideration, and see if they stand up to scrutiny. And if nothing EVER gets through to you, its a good sign that your not carrying an open mind.

To be humble or have an open mind you must be willing to admit that your wrong. There is no other way.

 

[Euphemia]

It is no worse than Calvinism. Both disparage the importance of choices made in this life.



Morality is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so you must recognize the possibility that those who you think are damned might actually be saved. Jesus spoke of this that the judgment of souls will yield unexpected results.

Some people we think are unsaved will surprise us in heaven for sure, and some we expect to be in heaven with us will be surprisingly absent. However, we are talking about what the word of God says:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NLT)
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We have a responsibility under God to uphold His word and not to succumb to secular pressure.

In any case, that doesn't bother me, I don't believe atheists will be saved, but I'm surely not going to deny the power of the Holy Spirit or the sovereignty of God.

I don't deny it, either. As long as someone is still breathing, there is always hope for salvation for that one.

You just seem to have an intolerance for them.

That is a false judgment. I have a love for the sinner. What I object to is having to deal with Christians who compromise. We are commanded by god to maintain the unity that WE ALREADY HAVE in Christ. Those who compromise their stand for holiness get all hot and bothered when they are confronted by that.

That is absolutely absurd and offensive! I have not once said anything to that effect.

Well---I hope that I am indeed wrong about that!

We are having a theological discussion and the mere fact that we can have one is proof that we don't have a consensus. You are also suggesting here that what you say is the "word of God" which is highly contentious.

I find that absolutely absurd and offensive!

There is a difference between an open-mind and standing up for what right. If I see someone being hurt by someone else, of course I will stand up for him. But I will also listen to various opinions and spiritual teachers and respect what they have to say, because that is humble. The problem with what your saying is that Biblical truths to you are what you determine. Having an open mind means that you listen to others, take them in with thoughtful consideration, and see if they stand up to scrutiny. And if nothing EVER gets through to you, its a good sign that your not carrying an open mind.

To be humble or have an open mind you must be willing to admit that your wrong. There is no other way.

Oh, I listen to others...and receive from the Spirit of God through Godly men and women. When I am wrong, I admit it. That is humility in operation.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Universalism is a false group. Identification with it in any way sends up red flags.

Atheists deny Jesus Christ. they can be as moral as a saint but they Are not saints and if they die in that state of unbelief, they will suffer the condemnation of god. That isn't judgment or harsh....it's the truth that God speaks.

You are intolerant of those who believe and speak the word of God, it seems. I hope that isn't true, but by what you say here in this forum, that is what comes through loud and clear.

Open-mindedness is not a spiritual fruit. It is a worldly commodity. What God teaches us we are to guard well against it being diluted. One can hold fast to truth and be uncompromising and maintain humility. Standing strong on biblical truth---not open-mindedness---and humility go together.

Everything that disagrees with you puts up a red flag.

 

[Euphemia]

Everything that disagrees with you puts up a red flag.

Oh stop...

 

[MMurphy]

Some people we think are unsaved will surprise us in heaven for sure, and some we expect to be in heaven with us will be surprisingly absent. However, we are talking about what the word of God says:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NLT)
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We have a responsibility under God to uphold His word and not to succumb to secular pressure.



I don't deny it, either. As long as someone is still breathing, there is always hope for salvation for that one.



That is a false judgment. I have a love for the sinner. What I object to is having to deal with Christians who compromise. We are commanded by god to maintain the unity that WE ALREADY HAVE in Christ. Those who compromise their stand for holiness get all hot and bothered when they are confronted by that.



Well---I hope that I am indeed wrong about that!



I find that absolutely absurd and offensive!



Oh, I listen to others...and receive from the Spirit of God through Godly men and women. When I am wrong, I admit it. That is humility in operation.

1 Corinthians is a reminder to keep ourselves in check. Perhaps the only thing the WBC has ever said that I agree with, you can't act like Hell and expect to go to Heaven. So yes, I will uphold God's Word and I will say to someone whose searching for God, this is the way you need to live, and you can't be engaged in wicked practices because you are a Christian now. God saved us and we need to honor Him by doing what pleases Him. I will not pass condemnation on anyone living in sin or struggling with it, because that is a divine prerogative. Will I help them, offer them advice and counsel as best I can? Absolutely.

There is a difference, though, between upholding moral behavior, and branding them with a big red "A". And in no way will I disparage a human being, sinner or otherwise, who is made in the likeness of God.

Is fornication, adultery, divorce, homosexuality, theft, prostitution and other things wrong and sinful? Yes.

Do I condemn the fornicator, the adulterer, the divorcee, the homosexual, the thief or the prostitute? Absolutely not! Because the worst sinners make the best Christians.

 

[guest4]

Does choice matter? Do we have free will?

Man always has a choice. And always has. Even all the way back to the garden of eden where there was TWO trees in the midst of the garden. Read deuteronomy 30: 15-20

 

[guest4]

Does choice matter? Do we have free will?

Man always has a choice. And always has. Even all the way back to the garden of eden where there was TWO trees in the midst of the garden. Read deuteronomy 30: 15-20

 

[Euphemia]

1 Corinthians is a reminder to keep ourselves in check. Perhaps the only thing the WBC has ever said that I agree with, you can't act like Hell and expect to go to Heaven. So yes, I will uphold God's Word and I will say to someone whose searching for God, this is the way you need to live, and you can't be engaged in wicked practices because you are a Christian now. God saved us and we need to honor Him by doing what pleases Him. I will not pass condemnation on anyone living in sin or struggling with it, because that is a divine prerogative. Will I help them, offer them advice and counsel as best I can? Absolutely.

There is a difference, though, between upholding moral behavior, and branding them with a big red "A". And in no way will I disparage a human being, sinner or otherwise, who is made in the likeness of God.

Is fornication, adultery, divorce, homosexuality, theft, prostitution and other things wrong and sinful? Yes.

Do I condemn the fornicator, the adulterer, the divorcee, the homosexual, the thief or the prostitute? Absolutely not! Because the worst sinners make the best Christians.

I totally agree with that.