Any here hold to Covenant Theology then?

Musicmaster said:
Words? Save? That's like practicing magic, isn't it, pretending that there's some magical formula of incantation to salvation? Really? I would hope that you're not rightfully representing what they believe, because that sounds so outlandish and pagan...

MM
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I was Lutheran at one time and understand their Confessions.
Martin Luther was very big on the power of the Word of God doing what it speaks. Heb 11:3, Rom 1:16.

"The word of God, wherever uttered, is powerful enough to change the hearts even of the ungodly, and these are not less unresponsive and incapable than any infant."
His whole Marburg Colloquy with Zwingli hinged on...'This is my Body', (that was Luther) unfortunately, today we add man's reasoning to God's Word.
No, I don't hold to paedo-baptism as I saw it's motive and fruit in the Lutheran Church.
 
Musicmaster said:
Words? Save? That's like practicing magic, isn't it, pretending that there's some magical formula of incantation to salvation? Really? I would hope that you're not rightfully representing what they believe, because that sounds so outlandish and pagan...

MM
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They would see scriptures having authority, and when recited and spoken the Lord awakens the babies with saving faith!
 
crossnote said:
I was Lutheran at one time and understand their Confessions.
Martin Luther was very big on the power of the Word of God doing what it speaks. Heb 11:3, Rom 1:16.

"The word of God, wherever uttered, is powerful enough to change the hearts even of the ungodly, and these are not less unresponsive and incapable than any infant."
His whole Marburg Colloquy with Zwingli hinged on...'This is my Body', (that was Luther) unfortunately, today we add man's reasoning to God's Word.
No, I don't hold to paedo-baptism as I saw it's motive and fruit in the Lutheran Church.
Click to expand...
Luther should have completed the reformation, by taking out of his theology holdovers from Rome, in regards to sacramentalism!
 
Here is what I found about Methodists.




  1. Family & Relationships
  2. Baby
  3. Baptism

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism?​

BySusie McGee Teacher, M.Ed
Contributor: Julie Kirk
newborn baby in christening gownSOURCE
What do Methodists believe about the baptism of children and adults? The following is a brief history of the Methodist church as well as information on this denomination's baptism and salvation beliefs.

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism of Children and Adults?​

What do Methodists believe about baptism? The official doctrine of The United Methodist Church in regards to baptism is this: Baptism represents believers' repentance and forgiveness of sins. It also signifies a new birth and the beginning of a person's Christian discipleship.


Baptism Symbolizes God's Intentions for Young Children​

Because young children are considered to be heirs of God's kingdom and believed to be under the atonement of Jesus Christ, they are thought of as acceptable subjects for baptism. In other words, baptism is symbolic of God's intentions for them.
An infant baptism is a sacrament and a gift of God's grace. This combined with teaching God's word can help guide the child, as he or she grows to accept the covenant and receive their salvation through their profession of faith
 
crossnote said:
I was Lutheran at one time and understand their Confessions.
Martin Luther was very big on the power of the Word of God doing what it speaks. Heb 11:3, Rom 1:16.

"The word of God, wherever uttered, is powerful enough to change the hearts even of the ungodly, and these are not less unresponsive and incapable than any infant."
His whole Marburg Colloquy with Zwingli hinged on...'This is my Body', (that was Luther) unfortunately, today we add man's reasoning to God's Word.
No, I don't hold to paedo-baptism as I saw it's motive and fruit in the Lutheran Church.
Click to expand...

I would fully agree that the word of God is indeed powerful and true, but the idea of anyone thinking that they can expand the power of those words over into a ceremony for those who cannot make such a conscious decision, that's just ludicrous. What would keep some looney from expanding that over to their dog or their horse? Do you see the dilemma?

I realize my example hits upon two different kingdoms...that of animals and another of human, but still. The problem is them thinking that they can expand upon those verses you quoted earlier, and envelop infants who do not and cannot make any decision for Christ and salvation that would make the baptism a true representation of a choice they made, and yet were incapable.

They cannot show to us any wording in those verses that would authorize them to include infants into that observance. It matters not one bit how they see any of it, what their creeds say, nor even their wishful thinking. If we're going to be honest with the word of God, we do not expand it out to include those who are not specifically included anywhere in a systematic study of the topic of baptism.

I don't mean to sound hostile, but this is serious stuff that I'm sure has been debated through many years of non-settlement...given that this practice is still ongoing because of the fallacious writings of Luther and perhaps others who are respected beyond what is reasonable.

MM
 
Hopefull said:
Here is what I found about Methodists.




  1. Family & Relationships
  2. Baby
  3. Baptism

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism?​

BySusie McGee Teacher, M.Ed
Contributor: Julie Kirk
newborn baby in christening gownSOURCE
What do Methodists believe about the baptism of children and adults? The following is a brief history of the Methodist church as well as information on this denomination's baptism and salvation beliefs.

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism of Children and Adults?​

What do Methodists believe about baptism? The official doctrine of The United Methodist Church in regards to baptism is this: Baptism represents believers' repentance and forgiveness of sins. It also signifies a new birth and the beginning of a person's Christian discipleship.


Baptism Symbolizes God's Intentions for Young Children​

Because young children are considered to be heirs of God's kingdom and believed to be under the atonement of Jesus Christ, they are thought of as acceptable subjects for baptism. In other words, baptism is symbolic of God's intentions for them.
An infant baptism is a sacrament and a gift of God's grace. This combined with teaching God's word can help guide the child, as he or she grows to accept the covenant and receive their salvation through their profession of faith
Click to expand...
So much for..”Deeds, not Creeds”.
 
Hopefull said:
Here is what I found about Methodists.




  1. Family & Relationships
  2. Baby
  3. Baptism

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism?​

BySusie McGee Teacher, M.Ed
Contributor: Julie Kirk
newborn baby in christening gownSOURCE
What do Methodists believe about the baptism of children and adults? The following is a brief history of the Methodist church as well as information on this denomination's baptism and salvation beliefs.

What Do Methodists Believe About Baptism of Children and Adults?​

What do Methodists believe about baptism? The official doctrine of The United Methodist Church in regards to baptism is this: Baptism represents believers' repentance and forgiveness of sins. It also signifies a new birth and the beginning of a person's Christian discipleship.


Baptism Symbolizes God's Intentions for Young Children​

Because young children are considered to be heirs of God's kingdom and believed to be under the atonement of Jesus Christ, they are thought of as acceptable subjects for baptism. In other words, baptism is symbolic of God's intentions for them.
An infant baptism is a sacrament and a gift of God's grace. This combined with teaching God's word can help guide the child, as he or she grows to accept the covenant and receive their salvation through their profession of faith
Click to expand...

This still ignores what any systematic study of this topic would reveal as foundational truths, as defined by the word of God. Babies already have over them whatever God has pre-ordained as binding upon them. The baseline, biblically revealed purpose for baptism is the outward expression of an inner work in those who have obtained saving faith who have gone beyond what is called "the age of accountability." Infants are not accountable for sin, so sprinkling them in a ceremony, that is still a rudimentary residue of the Romish system. It's therefore meaningless, more akin to witchcraft for those who may be onlookers and not aware of the history.

This concept of making the word of God into a candy cane and lollipop land of doctrinal inventions that have Walt Disney appeals to emotions and sentiments, none of which aligns with absolute truths as discovered through proper Hermeneutics, its lascivious to its core.

But, hey, we're all free to add to the word of God whatsoever one desires, remembering, of course, the consequences for doing such.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
They cannot show to us any wording in those verses that would authorize them to include infants into that observance. It matters not one bit how they see any of it, what their creeds say, nor even their wishful thinking. If we're going to be honest with the word of God, we do not expand it out to include those who are not specifically included anywhere in a systematic study of the topic of baptism.
Click to expand...
I suppose you can pour over Luther’s Works (55 vols) and see his reasons on infant baptism, which I don’t agree with and is a main reason I’m no longer Lutheran.
 
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crossnote said:
I suppose you can pour over Luther’s Works (55 vols) and see his reasons, which I don’t agree with and is a main reason I’m no longer Lutheran.
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It's sad how volumes of apologetics for falsehoods has and does fool so many through the centuries. If I wrote volumes in defense of an idea that infants have invisible wings, I'm sure I could develop a following, and therefore start yet another cult movement that has nothing to do with absolute truth as defined in the word of God.

....like magic....

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
It's sad how volumes of apologetics for falsehoods has and does fool so many through the centuries. If I wrote volumes in defense of an idea that infants have invisible wings, I'm sure I could develop a following, and therefore start yet another cult movement that has nothing to do with absolute truth as defined in the word of God.

....like magic....

MM
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Like Harry Potter 😀
 
Musicmaster said:
It's sad how volumes of apologetics for falsehoods has and does fool so many through the centuries. If I wrote volumes in defense of an idea that infants have invisible wings, I'm sure I could develop a following, and therefore start yet another cult movement that has nothing to do with absolute truth as defined in the word of God.

....like magic....

MM
Click to expand...
You do have to consider the thick darkness Luther and other Reformers came out of, heck even my wife has struggles shaking some of her past RC influence. If the Reformers hadn't shed their blood (especially in their translating work) we'd have a Pope for a president and would be singing Gregorian Chants.
 
crossnote said:
You do have to consider the thick darkness Luther and other Reformers came out of, heck even my wife has struggles shaking some of her past RC influence. If the Reformers hadn't shed their blood (especially in their translating work) we'd have a Pope for a president and would be singing Gregorian Chants.
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Actually RCC kept the miraculous alive during a very dark time in history. Even though they twisted it to suit their purpose.
 
Hopefull said:
Actually RCC kept the miraculous alive during a very dark time in history. Even though they twisted it to suit their purpose.
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Do you mean by chaining the Bible to the Latin language rendering it nearly impossible for the common person to understand? Or the superstitions of purgatory and Fatima visions?
 
crossnote said:
Do you mean by chaining the Bible to the Latin language rendering it near;y impossible for the common person to understand?
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What I mean is without them Christanity would have died. Many hate to face the fact that the catholic church came from what the apostles passed down through writings and stories. As corrupt as it became doesnt negate the fact that it was THE church for hundreds of years. Many anti catholics will say they arnt christian. That is nonsense. Ive been to mass a few times. They do more bible readings than any protestant church ive attended. Two from the OT and two from the NT. Im not catholic but neither do I believe they get everything wrong.
 
Hopefull said:
What I mean is without them Christanity would have died. Many hate to face the fact that the catholic church came from what the apostles passed down through writings and stories. As corrupt as it became doesnt negate the fact that it was THE church for hundreds of years. Many anti catholics will say they arnt christian. That is nonsense. Ive been to mass a few times. They do more bible readings than any protestant church ive attended. Two from the OT and two from the NT. Im not catholic but neither do I believe they get everything wrong.
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I hold to the view (good men may differ) that the RCC came about through the Church being wed to paganism under Constantine...
but then that's not within the scope of the OP.
 
thenami said:
Sometimes some of you get too logical and systematic about scripture. Get out of your heads and into your hearts.
Our Father in heaven will remind you to do so the hard way, cause sometimes thats the only place to find answers.
Peace out~
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Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:...

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

No thanks. I've already posted a thread about a reasonable rejection of the mystical approach to God and His word. Going with the heart only leads to evil and wickedness, and so no god of mysticism is going to punish us for not going with the heart, and especially the God portrayed within the Bible.

MM
 
Hopefull said:
What I mean is without them Christanity would have died. Many hate to face the fact that the catholic church came from what the apostles passed down through writings and stories. As corrupt as it became doesnt negate the fact that it was THE church for hundreds of years. Many anti catholics will say they arnt christian. That is nonsense. Ive been to mass a few times. They do more bible readings than any protestant church ive attended. Two from the OT and two from the NT. Im not catholic but neither do I believe they get everything wrong.
Click to expand...

Umm, no. The RCC was not spawned by the apostles. It's a creation of men starting in about the fourth century.

MM
 
crossnote said:
I hold to the view (good men may differ) that the RCC came about through the Church being wed to paganism under Constantine...
but then that's not within the scope of the OP.
Click to expand...

Actually, the RCC is not an adherent to covenant theology, right...regardless of its beginnings in the fourth century?

MM
 
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