Are all Muslims troublemakers?

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It feels like we are on the brink of a WW3.

The problem with Islam seems to be everything Muhammad says. That is quite a T-junction for a good Muslim. Accept what he says / defy science / common sense / all that should be good and proper from a logical mind and rape a nine year old or ignore everything he said.

Marrying nine year olds is worse then decapitations of infidels. If I was a Muslim I would de-convert immediately just on that.
 
I do sometimes project a sort of materialist attitude, so maybe you are not to blame. I'm sorry that I left the wrong impression about my faith. Also, I'm Catholic. The Catholic Church uses the idea of genres to interpret the Bible. History is only one genre. Maybe I said something about that.

I think that The Bible and the Iliad do compare in many ways. Both were written by dead white men. Both are full of ideas, which earns them a place on the list of books that everybody should read. Both are about human nature, both fair and fowl. They both have love stories. They both have unspeakable violence. They compare men as equals. Saint Paul says men (and I suppose also women) are equal before God. In the Iliad, Homer, who was a Greek, portrays the Trojans and Greeks as equal in walor. They both have advice for life. In the Iliad during one of the battle scenes, Achilles disarms a Trojan Warrior, who says that Achilles should not kill him because his father will pay a large ransom. Achilles says something like, "You idiot. Your daddy's money won't help you this time." And he cuts off the man's head. I go to school with boys very must like that Trojan warrior. The Bible is the Word of God. The Greeks never believed that a god wrote The Iliad, but The Iliad and the other stories about the Trojan War are as close to that as any Greek literature ever became.

I will be really surprised to learn if anyone can measure one way or another if one century is more violent then another. I wonder how anyone could find any accurate information. I read a book recently, Why the West Rules -- For Now. The author, Ian Morris, attempts to compare the productive capacity of the eastern most and western most societies. I suppose if productive capacity can be measured maybe violence can be measured at least in local areas.

Thank you, Ghid, for extending grace to me. You did not come right out and say the Bible is fiction. I had thought you were implying that. My bad...I interpreted your post wrong.
 
Last November, the City of Dearborn, MI, became the first US city to officially implement all aspects of Sharia Law. The new law went into effect 1/1/2014, and includes laws pertaining to crime, politics and economics as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, fasting, prayer, diet and hygiene.

Because the new law allows stoning for adultery or having a limb amputated for theft, Dearborn could very possibly see these unconstitutional acts within their city. Lesser offenses, such as drinking alcohol or abortion, could result in flogging and/or caning. Also, the law imposes harsh laws with regards to women and allows for child marriage.

How did this happen in America? This is not an isolated attempt to take over America's rights to freedom or undermine our Constitution. It is happening all over the US...it is just a matter of time.
 
The fact is that your words do seem to say that you are sticking up for Muslims. That is my observation and I am sure you will not agree.

I have no idea who you are speaking to when you say......."radicals".

What I see on CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, The Atlanta Herald, Orlando Sentinel and all the other news outlets is NOT Muslims abhorring what is going on in their own country.

I have no idea what you are reading or observing but I have seen innocent people having their head cut off and flags wave in Gaza City.
Please go to this web site and see what is actually going on......
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A0LEVwmZnipU6REA5JxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0a3VnZmkwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1NNRTQ4NV8x?p=muslims celebrate americans killed in afghanistan
I'm sticking up for peaceful Muslims who have as little interest in killing other human beings as you and I do.
And when I say "radicals", and they occur in all faiths, I am referring to people who would kill in the name of their religion.
What you see going on in the news focuses entirely on the actions of a relatively small (in the scope of Muslims worldwide) group of troublemakers who fit the above description of radical and are insane killers.
I work with at least 3 Muslims in my building. They don't cut the heads off journalists and they abhor the people who do. Last I heard it wasn't illegal to be Muslim.
 
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I'm sticking up for peaceful Muslims who have as little interest in killing other human beings as you and I do.
And when I say "radicals", and they occur in all faiths, I am referring to people who would kill in the name of their religion.
What you see going on in the news focuses entirely on the actions of a relatively small (in the scope of Muslims worldwide) group of troublemakers who fit the above description of radical and are insane killers.
I work with at least 3 Muslims in my building. They don't cut the heads off journalists and they abhor the people who do.

The "relatively small" group of troublemakers you are talking about are symptoms of Islam that occur after Islam gains power.

The spread of Islam to western democracies is a new trend. How it is spreading is well-documented from observing other countries. When Islam gains political power, it quickly becomes more aggressive.

When the first Muslims arrive in a Western democracy, they keep a low profile and make few if any demands on their host nation. Many quietly work as students, business owners, professors, doctors and other professionals, making good first impressions and gaining vocational respect.

When a large enough number of Muslims gather, they start requesting recognition of the Sharia law . (Please see my previous post.) To forstall resistance and suspicions, they publicly condemn "radical" Islam and even seek well-publicized inter-faith dialogue and gatherings.

When Muslims gain critical mass in a few cities, they begin to penetrate their host nation. Muslim political candidates conduct public relations campaigns and file lawsuits against alleged islamophobia, pressure public schools with Muslim students to hold prayers towards Mecca, endow Islamic studies departments at universities, place imams as 'chaplains' in armed forces and prison units. Even now, there is a push for the Koran to be taught in public schools as a "tolerance agenda".

When the Muslim population becomes the majority and/or Islam gains control of a nation (e.g., Taliban in Afghanistan), Sharia law is imposed on the host nation, which is then locked down against non-Islamic influences, including Christianity. The ideal Islamic state to their mind, is Saudi Arabia, where Sharia law is the only law of the land and enforced without mercy.

Again, how this spread of Islam happens is well-documented, and worth noting as a threat to America, where we are already seeing Sharia law being fully implemented.
 
The "relatively small" group of troublemakers you are talking about are symptoms of Islam that occur after Islam gains power.

The spread of Islam to western democracies is a new trend. How it is spreading is well-documented from observing other countries. When Islam gains political power, it quickly becomes more aggressive.

When the first Muslims arrive in a Western democracy, they keep a low profile and make few if any demands on their host nation. Many quietly work as students, business owners, professors, doctors and other professionals, making good first impressions and gaining vocational respect.

When a large enough number of Muslims gather, they start requesting recognition of the Sharia law . (Please see my previous post.) To forstall resistance and suspicions, they publicly condemn "radical" Islam and even seek well-publicized inter-faith dialogue and gatherings.

When Muslims gain critical mass in a few cities, they begin to penetrate their host nation. Muslim political candidates conduct public relations campaigns and file lawsuits against alleged islamophobia, pressure public schools with Muslim students to hold prayers towards Mecca, endow Islamic studies departments at universities, place imams as 'chaplains' in armed forces and prison units. Even now, there is a push for the Koran to be taught in public schools as a "tolerance agenda".

When the Muslim population becomes the majority and/or Islam gains control of a nation (e.g., Taliban in Afghanistan), Sharia law is imposed on the host nation, which is then locked down against non-Islamic influences, including Christianity. The ideal Islamic state to their mind, is Saudi Arabia, where Sharia law is the only law of the land and enforced without mercy.

Again, how this spread of Islam happens is well-documented, and worth noting as a threat to America, where we are already seeing Sharia law being fully implemented.
I'm sorry, that sounds like conspiracy theory to me. I absolutely disagree. I won't speak on the matter further.
 
I'm sorry, that sounds like conspiracy theory to me. I absolutely disagree. I won't speak on the matter further.

Peace, it may sound like "conspiracy", but the ground rules for what C1oudwatch3r has stated can be found in Moslem scripture.
Any "good" Moslem is hell bent on world domination. Allah says he has to be, or else.
 
It feels like we are on the brink of a WW3.

The problem with Islam seems to be everything Muhammad says. That is quite a T-junction for a good Muslim. Accept what he says / defy science / common sense / all that should be good and proper from a logical mind and rape a nine year old or ignore everything he said.

Marrying nine year olds is worse then decapitations of infidels. If I was a Muslim I would de-convert immediately just on that.

"De-converting" as you say is a death sentence. They try to kill non-Moslem people whose parents were Moslem.
 
Thank you, Ghid, for extending grace to me. You did not come right out and say the Bible is fiction. I had thought you were implying that. My bad...I interpreted your post wrong.

Seems to me that your heart was in the right place.

Since this thread is the "What to do about troublemakers" thread, I'll say that I don't know any troublemaking Muslims. I do know Palestinians who have an extreme sense of humiliation. When they talk about it, the pain on their faces makes me almost cry.

I have an hypothesis that the sense of humiliation attracts the narcissist ne'er-do-wells to the victory mosques where they reinforce each other's sense of humiliation. I don't know what to do about it, but I expect it will be an issue for the rest of my life.
 
from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/002-rape_adultery.htm
Those who are defending Islam are kidding...right?
All you need is four rapists and what chance has a girl got?

I for one have no special interest in defending Islam. I believe in Christ.

The issues I have on this thread are:

1. I'm wary of lumping any group of people together as "all <target group> are <bad because>".

2. I feel that (at least nominally) Christians have been guilty of many of the same type of things some are throwing at Muslims.

I'm far from convinced this type of "stone throwing" is a good idea. The latest target in this thread has been sex abuse. Need I mention the child abuse scandals that have been exposed within some of our religious organisations in recent years?

Something I have observed with some atheists is that this type of how bad the other group are compared to Christians can easily to the pointing out of our own failings as a whole. Going on to defend our own failings with lines like "they were a minority and they weren't real Christians anyway" while failing to make the same allowances for other groups is very likely to lead to is the feeling "wow, not only are Christians all this too, they are complete and utter hypocrites to go with it".

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't for example speak out against extremism but that I do feel that we should avoid targeting whole groups because of the actions and/or attitudes of a minority. I only see that as further fuelling the flames of hostility from various sources towards us.


What I see on CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, The Atlanta Herald, Orlando Sentinel and all the other news outlets is NOT Muslims abhorring what is going on in their own country.

What I think I see over here is an increase in younger Muslims becoming radicalised. I don't however see the demonization of all Muslims helping towards a possible solution. Whether the Islamic leaders over here could to more to help is not something I can answer but I will post something dated August 2014 from The Muslim Council of Great Britain:

The Muslim Council of Britain once again condemned the actions of the so called “Islamic State in Syria and the Levant”, ISIS. Today we express once again our rebuke of this reprehensible organisation. We are horrified at the abhorrent murder of James Foley, a reporter who initially went to the region to expose the human rights abuses of the Syrian regime. ISIS has murdered this man for no reason at all.

Each day ISIS seeks to carry out an act more barbarous than the day before, craving the oxygen of publicity to give credibility to their heinous acts. We condemn unreservedly their psychopathic violence, whether it is on minorities, on civilians, or on fellow Muslims.

The MCB expressed the British Muslim community’s common censure of the group as early as June, and called for joint action to ensure the poison of extremism and sectarianism is not injected into our communities.

ISIS does not speak for Islam, and has been repudiated by all Muslims. Their message only appeals to those who are easily duped by their twisted message purporting to be Islam. They seek to glamorise their violence, and unfortunately, the media has a part to play in adding to that glamour.

We urge the media in refraining from giving them any further undue exposure beyond conventional reporting. And we urge Muslim communities to re-double their efforts in coming together, condemning the barbarity of ISIS and persuading those gullible enough to take in their message that they are on a path to futility.
 
Peace, it may sound like "conspiracy", but the ground rules for what C1oudwatch3r has stated can be found in Moslem scripture.
Any "good" Moslem is hell bent on world domination. Allah says he has to be, or else.

And that is absolutely the truth!

Quran 2:216 ...........
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it"
Fighting jihad (and killing kuffar, 8:12, or 5:33, ...) for Allah is ordained for you".
 
There really is no doubt that there are peaceful people who proclaim to be Muslim. Most of us probably know many of them. There is also no doubt that there are violent, horrible people who proclaim to be Muslim who do what they do because of what they believe.

Text from Islamic scripture reads very violently; be tortured and killed for not converting or live as a second-class citizen and with a tax for not converting (based on Sharia Law).

By no means do I want to misread what Islamic scripture teaches because, let's face it, tons of people love to read Biblical Scripture and claim they now know everything about it. Most of us if not all of us here are not experts on Islam. Even if we were to read the entire Koran that wouldn't make us Islamic scholars.

However, I'm never hearing the arguments in defense of the violent text; be it "Mohammed was speaking symbolically -- what it means is don't count infidels as brethren." or "It doesn't mean to literally murder, but let them know that they are going down the wrong path."

What I'm trying to figure out is whether Islam is a religion of peace and the text is 100% symbolic but misleading or if the text means exactly what it says and Muslims who do believe in tolerance and peace are choosing to ignore Islamic teaching. It can be one or the other but it can't be both. Based on reason, history, and current events, I'm far more inclined to believe it is a religion of force and violence.
 
I'm sticking up for peaceful Muslims who have as little interest in killing other human beings as you and I do.
And when I say "radicals", and they occur in all faiths, I am referring to people who would kill in the name of their religion.
What you see going on in the news focuses entirely on the actions of a relatively small (in the scope of Muslims worldwide) group of troublemakers who fit the above description of radical and are insane killers.
I work with at least 3 Muslims in my building. They don't cut the heads off journalists and they abhor the people who do. Last I heard it wasn't illegal to be Muslim.

I must disagree with you. You seem to be terribly mis-informed.

I speak with missionaries in Iraq, Saudi Aribia and Jordan on a regular basis and what they tell me from actually living amonst Muslims is nothing like you are trying to make us believe. I have a personal friend who goes to Pakestain twice a year to operate on children who have stepped on land mines. He is informed on every visit that if he or his staf utter the name of Jesus they can be killed.

I posted for you a web site that showed the joy and praise that happens in the streests when a Muslim terror attack kills innocent men, women and children. There is no remorse for what happens from the populace that I can see.
 
I'm sticking up for peaceful Muslims who have as little interest in killing other human beings as you and I do.
And when I say "radicals", and they occur in all faiths, I am referring to people who would kill in the name of their religion.
What you see going on in the news focuses entirely on the actions of a relatively small (in the scope of Muslims worldwide) group of troublemakers who fit the above description of radical and are insane killers.
I work with at least 3 Muslims in my building. They don't cut the heads off journalists and they abhor the people who do. Last I heard it wasn't illegal to be Muslim.

No one wants to attack peaceful Muslims. I don't. Heck, my experience is that it's easy to love them. Being invited to holiday meals, meeting new friends in Georgetown pubs, etc -- they are wonderful people who want nothing more than to mind their business and respect others. No one here seems to have a problem with them.

What we're trying to figure out is whether those who do kill in the name of Mohammed are in fact doing what is expected of them according to Islam.
 
There really is no doubt that there are peaceful people who proclaim to be Muslim. Most of us probably know many of them. There is also no doubt that there are violent, horrible people who proclaim to be Muslim who do what they do because of what they believe.

Text from Islamic scripture reads very violently; be tortured and killed for not converting or live as a second-class citizen and with a tax for not converting (based on Sharia Law).

By no means do I want to misread what Islamic scripture teaches because, let's face it, tons of people love to read Biblical Scripture and claim they now know everything about it. Most of us if not all of us here are not experts on Islam. Even if we were to read the entire Koran that wouldn't make us Islamic scholars.

However, I'm never hearing the arguments in defense of the violent text; be it "Mohammed was speaking symbolically -- what it means is don't count infidels as brethren." or "It doesn't mean to literally murder, but let them know that they are going down the wrong path."

What I'm trying to figure out is whether Islam is a religion of peace and the text is 100% symbolic but misleading or if the text means exactly what it says and Muslims who do believe in tolerance and peace are choosing to ignore Islamic teaching. It can be one or the other but it can't be both. Based on reason, history, and current events, I'm far more inclined to believe it is a religion of force and violence.

And once again I agree with you.!

From my copy of the Quran for proper context says......

Qur'an (8:39) -
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.”

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".
 
No one wants to attack peaceful Muslims. I don't. Heck, my experience is that it's easy to love them. Being invited to holiday meals, meeting new friends in Georgetown pubs, etc -- they are wonderful people who want nothing more than to mind their business and respect others. No one here seems to have a problem with them.

What we're trying to figure out is whether those who do kill in the name of Mohammed are in fact doing what is expected of them according to Islam.

Agreed once again!
 
What we're trying to figure out is whether those who do kill in the name of Mohammed are in fact doing what is expected of them according to Islam.
I think you'll find in all religions people who can justify going against the texts of whatever holy book you want to mention to kill. Christians have "Thou shall not kill (murder in some translations)" - Muslims have “Whosoever killed a person it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he has saved the life of all mankind.” Both those texts seem pretty cut and dried to me. But I've encountered Christians who would stone "unrepentant" homosexuals right on this very forum.

I'm not excusing anyone who kills. It's flat-out wrong. But I think the mistake is to make such actions representative of an entire faith.
 
I think you'll find in all religions people who can justify going against the texts of whatever holy book you want to mention to kill. Christians have "Thou shall not kill (murder in some translations)" - Muslims have “Whosoever killed a person it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he has saved the life of all mankind.” Both those texts seem pretty cut and dried to me. But I've encountered Christians who would stone "unrepentant" homosexuals right on this very forum.

I'm not excusing anyone who kills. It's flat-out wrong. But I think the mistake is to make such actions representative of an entire faith.

This is why it is tricky. People can even locate Scripture in the Bible and say "See? The Bible says we should kill." This is why I only mean to be very careful when confronting what Islam teaches.

The Koran has text that teaches peace toward fellow Muslims, but I'm trying to find text that blatantly teaches peace toward those who aren't Muslim. Text that also teaches to love our enemies or even hold back on violence toward them. It's still a bit of a hunt. By no means do I want to demean anyone -- I really don't. In fact, I don't want to demean those who do want to kill me. These are still human beings, no matter how horrible they act. But I'm trying to get to the bottom of what Islam teaches...not even just what the Koran says, but what it all means.
 
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