Unified Belief

I am becoming more and more confused brother. It was YOU in post #76 who said.......
"We don't say it....GOD ...does.
So....please explain this;.....Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..."
Yes, there are other Scriptures but what I SAID was that the Scripture YOU used was the one -
"Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use".

I am not in any sure what you are actually saying or even asking. I did not "transpose" your question at all. I do not even know how that happens!!!!! In fact, I do not even know what you are saying!

I sat at my computer, used my fingers and typed out the answer in front of you! I gave you what I believe and have learned and evidently you do not like the answer.

I believe that this is a good time to say goodby to you. Listen my brother, You be well and stay safe but I am not going to continue here with you.
Please, last attempt...answer the question.....So....please explain this;.....Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

If you don't wish to answer that question. ...just say so. Please...then we can move on with greater understanding.
 
Please, last attempt...answer the question.....So....please explain this;.....Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

If you don't wish to answer that question. ...just say so. Please...then we can move on with greater understanding.
It seems to me that we are having a communication conflict. I did answer your question my dear brother in post #78.
Actually, Biblically...... This is the only verse that says “baptism now saves you.”

I gave you the answer and since you wish I can certainly answer it again.......but since YOU did not like the 1st answer you will not like the 2nd one either.

Actually it is 1 Peter 3:21.............. "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..."The source is the KJV.

Now my dear brother.......
the phrase you are asking about does NOT refer to water baptism IMHO!
YOU are free of course to believe whatever you want to believe.

I for one read the Scripture you asked about and to ME it says that Peter is saying that it is not the WATER that saves anyone but instead it is the as he says......""appeal to God for a good conscience" that water baptism represents.

I have stated and do so again that IMHO, Water Baptism is an expression of one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It is Christ who saves; baptism is a signifier of that reality.

Just to satisfy my mind, I have since you asked visited several Bible scholars works and they all verified what I am saying.............
1. Dr. J. Vernon Magee
2. Dr. Oliver B. Green
3. Dr. John Walvrood
4. Dr. Roy Zuck

As well.........there are a number of website that I would encourage you to go to and consider..........!

It seems to me that for some reason I have NO clue about, this is becoming adversarial. I do hope that the tension can be lowed for as YOU said........."Newbies". Us Oldies do not like it either.
 
Hello Jason;

I'm with you and don't feel denominations in our Christian community view are Biblical. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 teaches we are One Body with many members.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14, 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.

I have always had an issue with denominations which can be divisive in this perspective, for example, "I'm a Methodist." "Well, I'm a Pentecostal." "Well, I play it safe and worship in a non-denominational Church." Others just Church hop which lacks discernment for God's calling.

So what do we do?


My wife and I are Southern Baptists. But more important, we search where Christ is calling us to serve and in which Church community. Then it's our responsibility to discern as disciples, where we receive sound teaching of God's Word.

By submitting to where Christ has called us to serve, we have more peace about it but it doesn't stop there. We need to share our testimony with other believers and provide Scriptures to those who just don't know what to do.

There is more to this but will leave it here and listen/read other's thoughts.

God bless you, brother and thank you for starting this profound topic.
Your narrative is reflecting God's word. He distinguishes not of denominations. Those are man made.
 
It seems to me that we are having a communication conflict. I did answer your question my dear brother in post #78.
Actually, Biblically...... This is the only verse that says “baptism now saves you.”

I gave you the answer and since you wish I can certainly answer it again.......but since YOU did not like the 1st answer you will not like the 2nd one either.

Actually it is 1 Peter 3:21.............. "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..."The source is the KJV.

Now my dear brother.......
the phrase you are asking about does NOT refer to water baptism IMHO!
YOU are free of course to believe whatever you want to believe.

I for one read the Scripture you asked about and to ME it says that Peter is saying that it is not the WATER that saves anyone but instead it is the as he says......""appeal to God for a good conscience" that water baptism represents.

I have stated and do so again that IMHO, Water Baptism is an expression of one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It is Christ who saves; baptism is a signifier of that reality.

Just to satisfy my mind, I have since you asked visited several Bible scholars works and they all verified what I am saying.............
1. Dr. J. Vernon Magee
2. Dr. Oliver B. Green
3. Dr. John Walvrood
4. Dr. Roy Zuck

As well.........there are a number of website that I would encourage you to go to and consider..........!

It seems to me that for some reason I have NO clue about, this is becoming adversarial. I do hope that the tension can be lowed for as YOU said........."Newbies". Us Oldies do not like it either.
If you answered the question then I can't comprehend your answer....i conclude.
Peters scripture means just that...if you want to receive eternal salvation then you must complete the sin cleansing process which includes water baptism.

Lets try another one;

KJV Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..........

What does that mean?

Doesn't it include the conclusion that one must be baptized to be saved?
 
There are so many world religions both past and present. And if you add sects and denominations to the mix you get even more. It boggles the mind. Each religion, in turn, claims some level of exclusivity on the truth. This would be fine if each religion more or less said the same thing, but obviously they do not.

So what do we do? Do we choose one religion or one denomination at the exclusion of all else? Do we choose all or none? I am sure we have all faced this question either in our own being or in discussion with others.

It seems a conundrum worth exploring.


Rational point...where scripture presents a challenge we must remember the applicable reference
s for help;.....some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only ...and....it shall be revealed in due time.

I am glad you referred to denominations and not God's word.
 
It seems to me that we are having a communication conflict. I did answer your question my dear brother in post #78.
Actually, Biblically...... This is the only verse that says “baptism now saves you.”

I gave you the answer and since you wish I can certainly answer it again.......but since YOU did not like the 1st answer you will not like the 2nd one either.

Actually it is 1 Peter 3:21.............. "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..."The source is the KJV.

Now my dear brother.......
the phrase you are asking about does NOT refer to water baptism IMHO!
YOU are free of course to believe whatever you want to believe.

I for one read the Scripture you asked about and to ME it says that Peter is saying that it is not the WATER that saves anyone but instead it is the as he says......""appeal to God for a good conscience" that water baptism represents.

I have stated and do so again that IMHO, Water Baptism is an expression of one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It is Christ who saves; baptism is a signifier of that reality.

Just to satisfy my mind, I have since you asked visited several Bible scholars works and they all verified what I am saying.............
1. Dr. J. Vernon Magee
2. Dr. Oliver B. Green
3. Dr. John Walvrood
4. Dr. Roy Zuck

As well.........there are a number of website that I would encourage you to go to and consider..........!

It seems to me that for some reason I have NO clue about, this is becoming adversarial. I do hope that the tension can be lowed for as YOU said........."Newbies". Us Oldies do not like it either.
Then we just disagree. I will stay with clear scriptures.
Baptism is required.
Blessings.
 
Then we just disagree. I will stay with clear scriptures.
Baptism is required.
Blessings.
I am very satisfied with your response.

I do not agree with you as I read in Ephesians 2:8-9 in the 1611 KJV...............
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Now you can believe whatever you want to, but the Scriptures clearly say......."Not of works lest any man should boast".
No matter how you slice it.....Water Baptism as an essential to salvation is doing something in addition to what Christ did!


If there is anything else you would like clarification on, feel free to ask!

Have a wonderful life my friend.
 
If you answered the question then I can't comprehend your answer....i conclude.
Peters scripture means just that...if you want to receive eternal salvation then you must complete the sin cleansing process which includes water baptism.

Lets try another one;

KJV Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..........

What does that mean?

Doesn't it include the conclusion that one must be baptized to be saved?
Now, with all od God's love to you my friend, YOUR comprehension is not my problem.

IMHO........What you are saying is NOT what Peter said, That is what YOU want him to have said.

OK......Mark 16:16, NO IT DOES NOT SAY THAT ONE MUST BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED!!!t
YOU are saying that because Mark said---" he who believes and is baptized will be saved."....
Therefore, YOU are concluding that baptism is a necessary part of becoming saved.

My 1st response to you is that as a disciple of the 1611 KJV only, YOU should know and it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is and has always been some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

So the question then must be.....if YOU are saying that water baptism is an essential to salvation, then YOU MUST ALSO BE SAYING THAT HANDLING OF RATTELSNAKES IS REQUIRED! That is what is written in the 1611 KJV of the Bible! NO......I am NOT trying to be smart or sarcastic. I am posing to YOU a legitimate question based on the 1611 KJV of the Bible from Mark 16:17...........
"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents;

However, lets assume Mark 16:16 is authentic. Then the SHORT answer to your question of Mark 16:16 ....Is that it IS NOT saying that if you are not baptized you will be damned. Mark 16:16 IS NOT saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. What it IS saying is that the person who is saved will want to be baptized!
 
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LOL....WOW...we are done here.
Thank you.

So then..........if others do not agree with you, then everyone else is wrong.

I am just curious that YOU did not answer the question I asked you of............
"So the question then must be.....if YOU are saying that water baptism is an essential to salvation, then YOU MUST ALSO BE SAYING THAT HANDLING OF RATTELSNAKES IS REQUIRED! That is what is written in the 1611 KJV of the Bible! NO......I am NOT trying to be smart or sarcastic. I am posing to YOU a legitimate question based on the 1611 KJV of the Bible from Mark 16:17...........
"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents;

If you can not answer it, I understand.

God bless you my friend. I hope we can agree on another topic later on!
 
What about the thief on the cross?

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43 ESV)
 
What about the thief on the cross?

Yes. Excellent question.

God in the flesh said that "Today you will be with me in Paradise".....King James Edition!

Now, NO where in the King James Edition is there a record of the thief being taken down from the cross, baptised in water and then placed back up on that cross. Yet.........God said that "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

So the question then must be.........."Did God Lie"?
 
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43 ESV)
Thanks for the quote. Of which I am well aware. That was not the point of my question.
Relating to the point being discussed of baptism...why have you inserted that?
N Other words...what is your point?
 
Thanks for the quote. Of which I am well aware. That was not the point of my question.
Relating to the point being discussed of baptism...why have you inserted that?
N Other words...what is your point?
My point is that the thief on the cross was not baptized with water and yet was promised entry into Heaven by Jesus himself.
 
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My point is that that the thief on the cross was not baptized with water and yet was promised entry into Heaven by Jesus himself.
How do you know he was not baptized? Couldn't he have .......fell away ......{backslid} and in the current environment on the cross once again turned to Christ.
Maybe I missed but, please show scriptures? Figure of speech...I know you can't ........so don't waste the time.

In any event Christ has the power to grant anyone abstention from scriptures as He chooses.
 
How do you know he was not baptized?
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.

Maybe I missed but, please show scriptures?
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43 ESV)
You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.

In any event Christ has the power to grant anyone abstention from scriptures as He chooses.
That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
 
How do you know he was not baptized? Couldn't he have .......fell away ......{backslid} and in the current environment on the cross once again turned to Christ.
Maybe I missed but, please show scriptures? Figure of speech...I know you can't ........so don't waste the time.

In any event Christ has the power to grant anyone abstention from scriptures as He chooses.

How do YOU know he was Baptized!

You said..........
"Could he have fell away?"....{backslid} and in the current environment on the cross once again turned to Christ."

Now I know that you are kidding us. Where in the KJV do we read that?


Then you said..........
"In any event Christ has the power to grant anyone abstention from scriptures as He chooses.

Is there a Scripture in the Bible that says God tells us that we do not have to abide by the Scriptures.????????

I think that YOU should show the Scriptures that actually say that the thief was taken down and baptized and placed back on the cross!

You see, contextually, linguistically, and legally.....it is up to YOU to show the Scriptures that support your thesis that water baptism is an essential to salvation. We are saying that it is NOT needed!
 
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.

Brother.....YOU are correct! I do not think that there is any "INFERANCE" needed.

YOU are being very thoughtful and Christian in your responses and I congratulate you on them.

May I say to you to encourage you in your teaching that there are no verses to prove the point that the thief was baptized with before or after his cross death. One cannot find any verses in the gospels or in Isaiah 53 that say the thief on the cross was baptized. They do not exist.
Second, they violate the fundamental principle of Bible interpretation that states when Scripture is silent, we must be silent. That is, when there is no biblical support for a statement, then we are wise if we do not claim that something happened. Why? Because Only Scripture is the absolute authority, not our guesses or wishes. Therefore, since there is no biblical support that the thief on the cross was baptized, those who would teach that he was baptized should be silent and correct their false teaching OR accept the logical common sense understanding that he died on the cross without being baptized but went to heaven because water baptism is not an essential to salvation.

Those who appeal to Mark 16:16 as proof that the thief on the cross had to be baptized have missed two important points.
#1. They cannot prove the thief was ever baptized. It does not exist. Mark 16:16 does not prove their claim.

#2. They purposely distort the last part of Mark 16:16 which says anyone who does not believe is condemned. That is, they are going to hell. Here is the verse,
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16:16).

Now, why is the last part of the verse important?


Notice that if baptism is required for salvation, then the last part of the verse should say. . .
"he who has disbelieved or has not been baptized shall be condemned.”

That is, the verse only says people are condemned if they do not believe. It never says the absence of baptism condemns anyone. Faith and only faith saves an individual. Baptism is simply a symbolic act of an inward change of heart and transformation brought by the Holy Spirit.

I say this to you but I am actually speaking beyond you to those who read what we post and do not know the correct, fundamentls of Bible truth.
 
Thanks for the quote. Of which I am well aware. That was not the point of my question.
Relating to the point being discussed of baptism...why have you inserted that?
N Other words...what is your point?
Now with all due respect to you as a Christian, and in love I ask you again if you would like to answer this question............

Now, NO where in the King James Edition is there a record of the thief being taken down from the cross, baptized in water and then placed back up on that cross. Yet.........God said that "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

So the question then must be........
.."Did God Lie"?

Now may I say at this point, to respond to this with .......
"Christ can allow anyone abstention from scriptures as He chooses", Is just not an acceptable Bible answer!
Actually, I looked that up and searched it and found nothing to validate that comment! I found the opposite to be true!

Also, the comment of .......
"Couldn't he have .......fell away ......{backslid} and in the current environment on the cross once again turned to Christ." -- is unacceptable.
In all honesty......I do not even know what that means.

There is NO Bible Scriptures that say he was removed and baptized, NONE! However, God said that he would be in Paradise TODAY!

I ask you these things because there are lots of people who read what we post all over the world and we want them to be BIBLICALLY sound not personally influenced by what we want or what we think.

God bless you brother! Be safe and well!
 
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