Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by honestjeenn, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. Hey Bondman,

    Yes, it has been a while. I have been on a bit of a soul searching journey lately and not been able to respond here as often as I once did.

    I am doing okay. Thanks for the kind words about my church. No forceful obligations there for giving; just as you feel lead of God.

    I love it! :)
  2. You're very welcome IHL :)

    Thanks be to God!

    Hehe! Funny! LOL!
  3. And the Lord helped me see it through our Church's minister Bro.Eli :)
  4. After finding-knowing the TRUTH, shall we still insist not believing in the following?

    * 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Can we still accept the Law on Tithes to the "letter" or to the "spirit" or its "spiritual application" instead or of its "literal interpretation?"
  5. John_Jervis, have you not read the following?

    * Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

    * Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    * Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
  6. Yes, but I have also read this:

    And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
    And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.

    1 Thes 5:12-13
  7. Fil, blessings to you!

    I can see that you and the author of the URL work hard to try and make the OT and the NT fit together. But in the way you're doing this they don't, can't and never will. God spells this out in the NT itself. If you scroll back a bit on Page 5 and earlier I've written 2 or 3 times how the Scriptures are perfectly clear that the Law (and OT) finished at Calvary. I doubt many if any here are accepting your efforts to tie up tithing with things for us today (no offense intended).

    Before His Crucifixion for us Jesus said that He had not come to destroy the law or the prophets (the OT) BUT TO FULFIL!! Matthew 5:17 He was the sacrificial Lamb of God shedding His blood that we may be forgiven. He said from the Cross, "It is finished!!!" because He had totally, 100% fulfilled the law, which was then ended, and the NEW Covenant in His precious blood took it's place. NO MORE SACRIFICES, blood or otherwise.

    Until you read and understand Galatians and parts of Romans and accept what is written there that clearly says the law is ended, with the greatest of respect, you will continue writing a degree of material that is incorrect and it seems to me even irrelevant. But it's not just you: most preachers don't seem to see that there's a major difference between the OT and the NT either, and so they are back in the OT preaching things like tithing and more. I think we could be forgiven for thinking that the words "OLD" and "NEW" would give them a clue.

    Even the Ten Commandments are no longer in force, as they are OT and law. But the IMPORTANT caveat to that is that 9 of them are clearly RESTATED in the NT as things God expects us to obey as Believers in Christ. The one that's missing is the Sabbath, which is not taught anywhere in the NT.

    I'll say it again: the SOLE Guide-book we Christians have today is the New Testament. Learn it, live it, obey it, and you can reach maturity in Christ and please our God GREATLY (you have only until you die and leave this planet). There is no other way.

    Love to you in the Lord Jesus!

    - BM
  8. BM, I appreciate your comments regarding Jesus' statement "the end of the law" with His death on the cross.

    He said:

    * Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Quite clearly from the foregoing words of our Lord, Jesus Christ did not destroy the Law. Therefore the Law stays or remains effective, only it is no longer in the "letter" or literal meaning, but rather of the "spiritual" or intended message that the Holy Spirt reveals thereof.

    Very clearly this was revealed to PAUL in writing the following specifying the qualification of "Able Ministers of the New Testament."

    * 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    The foregoing truth regarding the words of God in the Holy Bible is very clearly demonstrated on the "Law on Tithes," so also with other commandments, like; Sabath, stealing, adultery and other laws in the Old Testament. These were clearly demonstrated from the acts of Jesus Christ.
  9. Hello again, my friend!!

    I totally understand your comments on Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. It certainly can sound like He's saying that the law and the prophets will remain - even after He's FULFILLED all of the Law on the Cross. In a sense they DO remain: we have access to reading the Prophets and also the Law (if we wish) right down to today. But here we simply must compare with other Scripture so we can be sure that Jesus' fulfilling of the Law really did do away with it.

    I'll go to your other quote for this: 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life. Two possible interpretations: when Paul says not of the letter (and following), either he's referring to OT law OR he's talking about preaching the letter (but not the SPIRIT) of the NT. As he precedes these words with reference to the New Testament, it seems likely he's referring to IT, not to the OT.

    But please allow me to explore this further so we can be certain. In v. 7 Paul refers to the Ten Commandments (LAW) as DEATH. In v. 9 he refers to the law as "the ministration of condemnation!" It sounds like he's here condemning the law out of hand. But his dissertation here actually concerns the NT and the spirit of IT rather than the OT: THAT'S what he's seeking to get across to us. But let's go further.

    Concluding his dissertation in verse 11, he ensures that we can NOT think that he's primarily speaking of the law but rather of the New Testament. He's been saying that back when the law was all that we had, i.e.., from v. 7 on, he speaks of it being glorious, but then speaks of the New Covenant (in the NT) being MORE glorious! For example, he says in v. 9: For if the ministry of condemnation [the law] was glorious, much more does the ministration of righteousness [the NT] EXCEED in glory. Oh, yes!!!

    He goes on in v. 10: For even that which was made glorious [the OT] had NO glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that EXCELS [Jesus' New Testament glory]. And finally we get the clarity we want here when Paul writes in v. 11: For if that which WAS DONE AWAY [the OT] was glorious, much more that which REMAINS is glorious. That is, he's saying that the OT is done away with, and the NT is what remains for us today.

    Phew, that was a bit 'heavy', eh, but it's how we MUST consider God's Word. My whole life AND ministry are predicated on the New Testament in Jesus' blood. I have MORE than I need there to be seeking to live out!! I DON'T need to add in any Old Testament to my beliefs and life in the Spirit of God. I have a full-time job ensuring that I'm living out His Word for me in the NEW! Praise His glorious Name!!

    Just FYI, I went and checked THE most respected commentary of the Bible ever written, by Matthew Henry, HERE, and he sums up better than I can that in 2 Cor 3:6 Paul was instructing ministers of the NEW COVENANT to ensure that even with IT they not be preaching/teaching the LETTER of it, but the SPIRIT of it: "for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life." Indeed, and Amen!!

    Finally, I have no 'axe to grind' in how I teach God's Word. Even tho I was so privileged to have gotten my knowledge from the Holy Spirit over many years, I am ALWAYS open to be shown where I'm wrong, and if I am, will change immediately!!

    With much love to you!!

    - BM
  10. Mr. Bondman, I am indeed glad with your "open mindedness" regarding the word of God - in our search for the truth thereof.

    For me, I simply rely on the "demonstration" that our Lord Jesus Christ showed in His time. Let us take the commandment:

    Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

    Again, having in mind:

    · 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    The “letter” of word in that commandment obviously refers to physical/material and financial matters, like: money, farm animals, and so forth.

    The two thieves on the “left and right” of Jesus Christ on the cross were guilty of this commandment. Very clearly to all reading the Bible is what these two thieves were guilty of. But no word was heard from the mouth of our Lord regarding their “sin of stealing.”

    How come the ire of our Lord was directed at the Scribes and Pharisees who were “not of the truth” that we hear HIM defining the “spirit” of the Law on "stealing" in the following:

    · Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

    Mat 23 summed up all what Jesus saw in these religious people, to Him they were the "thieves and robbers."
  11. Hi fil!

    In the context of tithing you previously quoted 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life,

    You've now quoted it again, seemingly this time in relation to stealing! No doubt you see the connection. But I cannot. It's very sad for me to say that you seem to have a sort of 'off beam' and mixed up understanding of God's word.

    Meantime my previous explanation about this verse stands, and it would be my sincere and earnest hope that you could both read and understand what I previously wrote about it.

    I will make no comment this time, nor probably in the future.

    My very best wishes to you for now and your future!!

    - BM
  12. This discussion has been completely off-topic for the last page of posts so I'm dumping all the off-topic discussions.
  13. BM, Sir, how do you reconcile the basic truth about how GOD speaks, and it is not the way we HUMANS do? He speaks in parables and dark sayings of old:

    * Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?
    * Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

    And with the Law on Tithes, God speaks of "eating what is being offered:

    * Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
    * Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

    And, Jesus Christ said He did not destroy the Law but He came to fulfill it. In this regard, the Law on Tithe when He told His Apostles:

    * Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    MOREOVER, what was demonstrated by our Lord was substantiated by Paul in the following, which is contrary to what present-day religious leaders believe and do:

    * Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
    * Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

    Is not PAUL the leading Apostle of Christ? Why don't we listen to him giving the following lesson?

    * 1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    Does not the following directly relate to TITHING?

    * 2 The 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

    * 2 The 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

    * 2 The 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
  14. This thread has been well discussed. Everyone has stated their views and no one is changing their minds.

    With that in mind, it is the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained and the thread will be closed.

    If anyone wishes to add something to this thread that is of a differing viewpoint and has not already been covered, please let anyone on the Moderator Team know, and reopening of this thread will be considered.

    Also, the thread has gotten off topic.

    We thank all who participated.
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