Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by honestjeenn, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. This is a very strange line of logic for me. Tithing was to support ministry and God's purpose. The priests were given a portion, but traditionally tithing was for compassionate ministries. Even Paul continued as a tent maker, and it is by his example that we base our pastoral traditions. While I don't have a problem allowing the church to pay for a pastor, I don't necessarily believe it to be the primary purpose of tithing either. I have always assumed that I would be bi-vocational, that's just the way I was raised.

    I'm a bigger fan of home groups and such than centralized congregations, but that doesn't mean that I reject the idea of a larger church. I think that a church can do things that small groups can't, but groups also have some freedom that a church doesn't have. However the organizational structure works, the purpose is still clear. Bringing the Gospel to the world, and growing together as Christians is much more important than all other concerns.
  2. I agree with you, I just think churches are much too expensive for what they are accomplishing. As you said, paying salaries is not the primary purpose of tithing, yet that is where most of the money goes. Not to mention all the other stuff that does nothing to further the kingdom of God.

    I think the home group concept is much more in line with the gathering together that we are expected to do.
  3. and he worked as a tent maker not only to sustain his needs, but also for the others that were him:

    Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
    I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive
    Acts 20:34-35

    Yes, Paul is a good example
  4. God gave us a "free will" and everybody can exercise this God-given gift.
  5. On the matter of the Law on Tithes, it is a choice between:

    HUMAN PERCEPTION of the written words of God.
    DIVINE REVELATION of the "intended message" of God from His written words.
  6. The tithing law didn't come into the Church until the 4th century. About the time that the Church left the hospitality of women and started acquiring real estate and an overhead.

    Irenaeus (written 180 A.D., ANF 1:484-485)
    The class of offerings in general has not been set aside. For there were both offerings there [among the Jews] and there are offerings here [among the Christians]. Sacrifices there were among the [Israelite] people; sacrifices there are, too, in the church. Only the outward form has been changed. For the offering is now made, not by slaves, but by free men... [The Jews] had indeed the tithes of their goods consecrated to Him. In contrast, those who have received liberty set aside all their possessions for the Lord's purposes, bestowing joyfully and freely not the less valuable portions of their property, since they have the hope of better things.

    Tertullian (written 197 A.D., ANF 3:46)
    On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation -- but only if it is his pleasure and only if he is able. For there is no compulsion; all is voluntary.

    Justin Martyr (written 160 A.D., ANF 1:185-186)
    The wealthy among us help the needy... As for the persons who are prosperous and are willing, they give what each thinks fit.
  7. It is in taking the "letter" of the word that many people are committing a great blunder in the eyes of God.

    With this literal application of the Law on TITHES , CHRISTIANITY is divided sects because financial contributions make this possible. Remove the TITHES and no sects will ever subsist.

    What remains would be the pure CHRISTIANITY in the first century where we read the following:

    1. It is GOD, not any man either prophets or apostles, that is leading.

    * 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    * Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
    2. There is no congregation of people for them to look up at a particular person, for our Lord said, "Ye are all brethren.

    * Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi (Teacher/Pastor): for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

    * Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
    Hence, this is the actual application of what Jesus Christ said:

    * Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    With this "spiritual set up," a truly "born again" person is never subject to the sharp rebuke of Jesus Christ, for the real christian has recognized Him"by divine revelation" and therefore no longer subject to His rebuke:

    * John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
  8. Let us look at the Law on Tithes where "women" or the PEOPLE take it to the "letter" or literally. Every Christian sect and denomination, in feeding the people with their respective "interpretation of the word," has DIVIDED CHRISTIANTY that this religion no longer can be distinguished from the PURE that JESUS CHRIST established in the 1st century.

    The "engine causing this division" is caused by literal TITHES. Remove TITHES and no sects will ever survive, and the REAL CHRISTIANS, like the original DISCIPLES of Christ would be made known to many people. But as it is, these REAL BELIEVERS remain obscure, although definitely they are ALIVE AND EVER PRESENT in the "eyes of God."​
  9. I've found this a fascinating thread to read, with many interesting points made and discussed.

    The Western church doesn't seem to understand the major difference between the Old Covenant (Testament) and the New Covenant (Testament) in Jesus' blood. When Jesus spoke from the cross His words of triumph: "It is finished," He was saying something like, "I've done it!" And done it He certainly had!! At that moment a totally new covenant began; the old had ended.

    Thus if someone says of tithing, "But it's in the Bible," they're right of course - but it's NOT in the New Testament! Anywhere. It is NOT for today. It's NOT a law. Furthermore, tithing as practised today is nothing like the tithing under the Law. It finished when the law was totally and completely fulfilled by God's only Son at Calvary. In it's place since then is something like cheerful, free-will giving. You can give a tenth to Jesus if you wish, nothing wrong with that, but it is not a tithe, so please don't CALL it that. Further: your giving is not to the church as we know it today. THAT'S nowhere in the New Testament either.

    My Beloved and I never tithe. Instead we live as simply as we possibly can (we aim for not a dollar to ever be spent unless it absolutely HAS to be), thus saving as much as we possibly can from our low, low Pensions, and that saving goes to Believers in need as Jesus spelt out in Matthew 25 (I have 2 short messages on this: deadly serious!! Who Exactly Did Jesus Say Would Get Eternal Life PLUS Part 2) AND, via http://gfa.org, to reach the MOST UNREACHED in the world, which the church gives just 0.5% of its giving to!!

    It's TIME, brothers and sisters. Time we stopped and recognised that our SOLE guidebook of doctrine and practice for today is the New Testament. The Old can help understand it, but the full law of the Old has long finished. Let's READ and UNDERSTAND the NT by His Spirit, and LEARN and GROW, and then DO what the New Testament says. Why do I say that? - BECAUSE as a people of God WE'RE NOT!!! But we must, or we'll never learn OBEDIENCE which will lead to RIGHTEOUSNESS and HOLINESS and GODLINESS to please our God! Time for talking is over. ACTION is what He now wants!

    Much love to all!!

    - BM

    URL used by leadership permission.
  10. With in 2 miles of my home there are 18 churches I know of, I have lived at this address for 12 years.
    Not once have I been approched or invited to a church. I guess they are running short of funds/people to
    spread the word. Some do have big flashing signs though, I just thought it was odd that no church goes out
    and invites people to hear the word of God. Seeing that they collect money to "spread the word". Atleast send
    out a mailer. I have no ideal what they do, other than meeting on Sunday(some Weds.) I have attended church
    most of my life(raised catholic) but have been to many churches which is why I don't attend . You may ask why?
    I started reading about what I was being preached to,the more I read the more I could'nt understand what the churches purpose was. It was a business. To compete for big church on the block, most members,biggest buildings,
    big budgets, and sadly the members get caught up in all the hoopla. give give give we need this , upgrade this, build this.
    Its big business and its very competitive.
  11. By comparison we may take a glimpse of how the Law on Tithes is with:


    * Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

    * Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

    "Corn" - for bread - for the letter of the word of God
    "Wine, oil" - wine for blood of Jesus and with it - the HOLY SPIRIT is made availabe that is symbolized by "oil" as in "anointing of the Holy Spirit"
    "firstling, or first-born" - symbolizing Jesus Christ - for TRUTH

    Thus, in TITHING it is the "truth in the word" that God requires His chosen to do "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always."
    "In the place his name there" - as the TRUTH is shared with prospective believer (place), the "name" (for GOD) is fully glorified.
    In effect, TITHING is actually EVANGELISM.


    "Money" - for church buildings, salary or remuneration of people taking "preaching as a profession."

    Nowhere in the Bible can we read the foregoing.
    Instead, let us listen to Paul a leading Apostle of Christ appointed, not by men, but by JESUS when no longer was physically present:

    * 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    * Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

    * Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

    * 2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

    * 2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

    * 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
  12. I'm sure there are churches out there that do not handle things appropriately, or according to God's word, but I do believe that God wants us to tithe. I don't believe it will change your salvation but it is the ONE thing that God says we can test him on.
    Malachi 3:
    6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the LORD Almighty.
    “But you ask, ‘How are we to return?’
    8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
    “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
    “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

    I can personally account that through tithing my faith has increased and God has always given me above and beyond what I need.
  13. Sad to state, personal opinion is not acceptable to God.

    In truth, GOD condemns "human wisdom" that simply comes from the "intellect, senses, and feeling." This is philosophy! Otherwise, we should not have heard the following from Jesus Christ:

    * Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Hence, when we speak, let us do it through the "inspired words of God" and this must be with "His intended message" as demonstrated from the very words of God.
  14. Welcome to CFS, Washedbytheblood!

    The many churches who wrongly teach this Malachi passage for today do not effectively understand that we are no longer under the Law, as the New Testament clearly states. The Law is Old Covenant (Testament). We no longer live under it, but under the wondrous New Covenant in Jesus blood (the very blood you used as part of your name here!!) Once Jesus died on the Cross the new covenant had started, and the old was ended!

    Thus our SOLE guide-book for living now is the New Testament, and tithing is NOT anywhere in the New Testament. Tithing to the CHURCH is not there either. If you want to keep the law - including tithing - then keep it ALL: all the blood sacrifices, ways of living, all of it! And you'd have a VERY tough time tithing anyway, because what you're doing is nothing like Old Testament tithing! NOTHING.

    The church teaches you to give 1/10 to IT to allow it to operate - buildings, electronic equipment, and the like. Here's a New Testament command from Jesus Himself: "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." Mark 15:16. "All" means "all!!" So ask your church what proportion of your tithe is going to reaching those parts of the world where the Gospel has NEVER been preached - as many as 2 billion souls!!! The average Western church giving to reach the unreached is something like 0.5% of their budget!!! I hope that may help you to rethink what you're being taught.

    This is why our sacrificial, free-will giving (that's NT!) goes, not to a church which will use much of it on itself, but directly to those who ARE out there obeying Jesus' command! Check out http://gfa.org and you can begin helping get the word of salvation to dear souls like these.


    They've never heard of Jesus...



    In the top graphic they've not heard cos no one cared. In the bottom graphic IT COST MONEY FOR THEM TO HEAR - and they've heard because some Western Christians sacrificed to give money DIRECTLY to help them hear of Jesus AND to help their lives of poverty.

    Bless you in your continued walk with Him!!

    - BM

    EDIT: We never tithe and more and more we're choosing to live what some may call 'poor' lives, but we have never gone wanting either.

    Url used with leadership permission.
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  15. I have no axe to grind with how traditional churches are run, having grown up in a traditional western church culture, but I pretty much agree with Bondman here. I think we all need to give deep thought to how to be the most effective for the Kingdom of God in our opportunities, talents, gifts, time, energy, and money. We do seem to tie up a lot of our resources in infrastructure.
  16. My understanding is that tithing is no where in the new testament but because we have been immensely given as children on God, ideally we should be giving much more that 10%. I mean the standard has been removed. God loves a cheerful giver.

    I am saddened by the fact that because we are free to give as much as we want some of us (including me) have held back money to give ourselves more security. We're all storing up riches on earth ignoring the fact that all we see here is temporary. I am not against Church or ministers pleading to give for a good cause. Money can be used for God's purposes. Teaching about giving is one way to remove Christians from hanging on to their wealth. I don't think at all, its wrong. When you run a ministry, you get to know how hard it is to run it when people involved are not willing to give. It might be business at some places, but that's not the case everywhere. Let God's minister do what they want. If the Holy Spirit asks you to give, give cheerfully. :)

    Oh, I have sometimes called it tithe. I don't think the name really matters.
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  17. Oh absolutely, my friend! We need to give. How else can God's work get done? It CAN'T! I'm so glad you mentioned how God loves a CHEERFUL giver! He is very unhappy with the hoarder. As you commented, we are so concerned with our own security, well-being, etc., that we forget those who have NONE at all!! Including Christians!! (in places like India and Africa). That's something I tend to call Spiritual criminality or similar!

    It could be as high as 99% of Western Believers who are almost completely worldly, i.e., their homes, cars, clothes, furniture, entertainment, comfort and ease, leisure time, holidays, ATTITUDES and more are NO DIFFERENT from the next door unbeliever. What does God say about that: check out James 4:4. I don't know about others here, but I sure do NOT want to be an enemy of God. I want to be a LOVER of God, that's what I want!! So Beloved and I have slowly moved to spending no money unless it absolutely HAS to be spent, and so even as chronically ill people on a low, low Pension we're able to help the Lord's work and His people in different ways with (literally) thousands of dollars each year! (we don't keep track of the amount).

    I pray God that others may be moved by His Spirit to follow our example.

    - BM

    EDIT: I think we must not use the word tithe cos by doing so we're encouraging those who do tithe to continue to believe their teachers and pastors who quote verses like from Malachi. 'Giving', 'gifts', 'free-will giving' or the like are much better.

    Oh, and for us to get how we live today took time - we slowly worked towards putting ourselves in His hands and thinking through things like not having to throw out that lounge chair that was starting to look old. Instead put a cheap material throw-over on it, and it will go for years more. Easy-peasy!
  18. That's a mighty powerful 2 cents, and I agreee whole heartedly.

    Thank you for this post John_Jervis; especially the "as he purposeth in his heart ... not grudgingly or of necessity" part.

    I've read this passage many times and have just now grasped its true meaning.

    Many times I just couldn't see how I was going to give away 10% of my check, and I resented God for asking me to do so. Yes, I understand 'faith' and all, but God also doesn't mind us being practical either. After all HE is the one who placed us in this practical world. Well, God and I have been discussing this in detail lately, and He has lead me to this post. Hallelujah! I feel much better, and I am a much more cheerful giver. Thanks again John_Jervis.

    At the church I attend there are NO offering plates passed. Money is not even really talked about that much. There are containers placed around the church for anyone who feels 'lead' to give.

    I believe tithes and offering is a very "personal" part of our relationship with God, and I believe it should stay that way.

    Okay, there's my

  19. I don't think it matters either Jeff. It is what in the HEART that counts.

    "For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7).
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  20. Hey, IHL, haven't caught up with you, well, it seems like ages.

    Loved what the Lord helped you to see through John! 'A cheerful giver' - isn't that such a great word!! My heart just LOVES giving!

    Oh, and your church is just AMAZING regarding giving. Plaudits to the leaders there!

    God bless you heaps!!

    - BM
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