The Long Ager Dichotomy!

crossnote said:
That pesky 'evening and morning' are my favorite deterrent to OE advocates. What are they going to do, start 'spiritualizing' what they stand for, or are an allegory of?
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Not if it is referring to a beginning and ending of an event. It seems it is a problem for young earthers to explain how there is an evening and a morning without the sun. To answer another objection from MM, if God can keep the earth warm enough for liquid water without the sun He can surely keep it warm enough for the plants.
 
Dave F. said:
Not if it is referring to a beginning and ending of an event. It seems it is a problem for young earthers to explain how there is an evening and a morning without the sun.
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What 'event' would that be? When Moses wrote Genesis, he used concepts that the Israelites could understand like 'evening and morning, one day'. Day is thus precisely defined for all of us.
 
Musicmaster said:
When I wrote that, I was speaking of what others have said in the past when I engaged this topic more deeply on other sites.

I'm content to say that we don't know all the facts as to how it all happened. What matters most is that Jesus is Lord, and we will know as we are known at the moment the veil of our humanity drops away.

MM
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Agreed and that is pretty much what I have said as well.
 
BibleLover said:
Maybe we're looking at the creation of light itself ex nihilo. Prior to the creation of light, God created matter ex nihilo. After the introduction of matter, it would be reasonable to introduce wavelengths and particles. God is creating the elements of physics in these early verses.
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Agreed. Everything out of nothing!
 
Dave F. said:
Not if it is referring to a beginning and ending of an event. It seems it is a problem for young earthers to explain how there is an evening and a morning without the sun. To answer another objection from MM, if God can keep the earth warm enough for liquid water without the sun He can surely keep it warm enough for the plants.
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Agreed!
 
crossnote said:
What 'event' would that be? When Moses wrote Genesis, he used concepts that the Israelites could understand like 'evening and morning, one day'. Day is thus precisely defined for all of us.
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The evening and morning of the 1st day = the event in question.

Question.....How could there be a "day" without the Sun or Moon which was created on the 4th day?

Question.....How did God keep the water on the earth from freezing solid with No sun to warm it?
 
Major said:
Question.....How could there be a "day" without the Sun or Moon which was created on the 4th day?
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Ask the author of Scripture, it's how He defines the day. How would you define it?
Major said:
Question.....How did God keep the water on the earth from freezing solid with No sun to warm it?
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With God, All things are possible (Mt 19:26), besides icy weather didn't happen until AFTER the Flood Gen 9:22
 
crossnote said:
Ask the author of Scripture, it's how He defines the day. How would you define it?

With God, All things are possible (Mt 19:26), besides icy weather didn't happen until AFTER the Flood Gen 9:22
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I think you might want to double check your reference of Gen 9:22. It speaks of Ham seeing his father Noah naked in his tent and telling his two brothers.
 
crossnote said:
Yikes! Sorry, good catch.(y) I meant Gen 8:22.
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Gen. 8:22 is just saying that things will continue going on as they have. I have heard people use Gen. 2:5-6 to suggest that rain had never fallen before, but, that is not what that passage is saying either. That same passage says that there was no man to till the ground, so , this was a description of the pre-Adamic time. The bible does not specifically tell us it did or did not rain prior to the flood. It also does not say it was always warm and that the seasons were not in effect until after the flood. There is no way for us to definitively say what the exact condition on the Earth was prior to the flood, certainly such a catastrophic event as the deluge would have had an impact on the Earth afterward.
 
crossnote said:
Ask the author of Scripture, it's how He defines the day. How would you define it?

With God, All things are possible (Mt 19:26), besides icy weather didn't happen until AFTER the Flood Gen 9:22
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Hebrew word for day is "yom". I think we all know that. It can refer to..........
1. The 24-hour period of time that it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis.
2. It can also refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk.
3. And it can refer to an unspecified period of time.

Genesis 8:22...........
"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease

It seems to me that the Scripture there verifies COLD and WINTER.

With all due respect, how in the world can we assume that there was NO icy weather until after the flood.
I agree that Genesis mentions seasons in relation to the creation of the heavenly bodies, summer and winter seasonal heat and cold as such are not mentioned in Scripture until after the Flood but IMHO it is a real stretch to say that there were no icy whether conditions in the earth.
 
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Dave F. said:
Gen. 8:22 is just saying that things will continue going on as they have. I have heard people use Gen. 2:5-6 to suggest that rain had never fallen before, but, that is not what that passage is saying either. That same passage says that there was no man to till the ground, so , this was a description of the pre-Adamic time. The bible does not specifically tell us it did or did not rain prior to the flood. It also does not say it was always warm and that the seasons were not in effect until after the flood. There is no way for us to definitively say what the exact condition on the Earth was prior to the flood, certainly such a catastrophic event as the deluge would have had an impact on the Earth afterward.
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Agreed. Sometimes we read into the Scriptures what we assume it wants to say. It is a common thing.
 
Major said:
Hebrew word for day is "yom". I think we all know that. It can refer to..........
1. The 24-hour period of time that it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis.
2. It can also refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk.
3. And it can refer to an unspecified period of time.

Genesis 8:22...........
"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease

It seems to me that the Scripture there verifies COLD and WINTER.

With all due respect, how in the world can we assume that there was NO icy weather until after the flood.
I agree that Genesis mentions seasons in relation to the creation of the heavenly bodies, summer and winter seasonal heat and cold as such are not mentioned in Scripture until after the Flood but IMHO it is a real stretch to say that there were no icy whether conditions in the earth.
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Before Moses wrote Genesis, the stories in Genesis were passed to the subsequent generations orally. Oral histories contain mnemonic aids to keep the facts of the stories consistent and accurate. The clauses "there was evening, and there was morning..." are probably such a mnemonic aid. After all, evening and morning are literally only possible if the sun exists. Thus, the first day of creation was the period in which God established the physical laws of the universe.
 
Dave F. said:
Gen. 8:22 is just saying that things will continue going on as they have. I have heard people use Gen. 2:5-6 to suggest that rain had never fallen before, but, that is not what that passage is saying either. That same passage says that there was no man to till the ground, so , this was a description of the pre-Adamic time. The bible does not specifically tell us it did or did not rain prior to the flood. It also does not say it was always warm and that the seasons were not in effect until after the flood. There is no way for us to definitively say what the exact condition on the Earth was prior to the flood, certainly such a catastrophic event as the deluge would have had an impact on the Earth afterward.
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Agreed, but it does tell us what a day is = evening+ morning.
 
Major said:
Hebrew word for day is "yom". I think we all know that. It can refer to..........
1. The 24-hour period of time that it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis.
2. It can also refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk.
3. And it can refer to an unspecified period of time.
Click to expand...

While you and I agree on many things, but I know this is an area we don't see eye to eye.
#1 & #2 fit the evening morning scenario, and the context of #3 would not fit, or perhaps contradict Gen 1:5, 8 etc.

It seems to me that the Scripture there verifies COLD and WINTER.

With all due respect, how in the world can we assume that there was NO icy weather until after the flood.
I agree that Genesis mentions seasons in relation to the creation of the heavenly bodies, summer and winter seasonal heat and cold as such are not mentioned in Scripture until after the Flood but IMHO it is a real stretch to say that there were no icy whether conditions in the earth.
Click to expand...
I never introduced the 'ice' question, you did in post #26. That was not my point for supporting a YE, and probably should have never responded.
 
BibleLover said:
Before Moses wrote Genesis, the stories in Genesis were passed to the subsequent generations orally. Oral histories contain mnemonic aids to keep the facts of the stories consistent and accurate. The clauses "there was evening, and there was morning..." are probably such a mnemonic aid. After all, evening and morning are literally only possible if the sun exists. Thus, the first day of creation was the period in which God established the physical laws of the universe.
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A mneumonic aid is a method in aiding memory. What was there to remember? It seems to me that God was revealing His work and method in creation in Genesis. Before that, it was a complete mystery, as attested to by the multitude of creation-myth fables of other tribes and nations.
 
crossnote said:
While you and I agree on many things, but I know this is an area we don't see eye to eye.
#1 & #2 fit the evening morning scenario, and the context of #3 would not fit, or perhaps contradict Gen 1:5, 8 etc.


I never introduced the 'ice' question, you did in post #26. That was not my point for supporting a YE, and probably should have never responded.
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I agree. In fact I do not know of anything we have not agreed on, maybe angels.

So having said that ...in post #27 we see............
Major said:
Question.....How did God keep the water on the earth from freezing solid with No sun to warm it?
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You responded with..........
"With God, All things are possible (Mt 19:26), besides icy weather didn't happen until AFTER the Flood Gen 9:22".

I was only responding to your ..........."besides icy weather didn't happen until AFTER the Flood Gen 9:22".

You see, I was thinking that the water on the earth would freeze solid with a heat source of the Sun. That is why I said......
"How did God keep the water on the earth from freezing solid with No sun to warm it?"

There had to have been some kind of heat source.......dont you think before the Sun was created?
 
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