The deeper truths of God are all paradoxes.

[faither]

Thought this information might be helpful.

.
Example: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one entity. but three separate entities at all times , all the time.
Example: Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at all times, in all respects, in every way. Christianity requires this going out the gate.
Jesus taught.
Example: 1) You live by dying, you live and not live at the same time.
2) The first shall be last, and the last shall be first. You're first and last at the same time.
3) If you want to be chief, be a servant.
4) You go up and down at the same time.

In the Greek language all these examples are specific, opposite things that are happening simultaneously. These are all paradoxes, Gods frame of understand. Our frame of understanding can't accept these truths. But if we don't acknowledge them, we have no chance to understand Gods word.

Definition of a paradox.
A paradox embraces two things, mutually contradictory, exclusive of one another, but concomitant. Existing at the same time, merged together, both true, yet entirely opposite. The deeper truths of God are all paradoxes.

Not having an understanding of this creates most of the division between the called out ones. We tend to choose one side of the paradoxical truth and throw darts at the other side.

 

[Major]

Thought this information might be helpful.

Wouldn't those examples be "oxymorons"? Wait.......oxy's are between TWO "words" so I answered my own question.

 

[2404]

Thought this information might be helpful.

I expect you believe God is perfect therefore His Word can be nothing less. So if there is a problem it must be with our understanding.
In your first example Jesus confronted Nicodemus about being born again, which is descriptive of a death and a rebirth.
I believe this is true for all scripture in that it is understood by revelation.
Jesus told Peter that on this rock... the rock being revelation.

 

[faither]

I expect you believe God is perfect therefore His Word can be nothing less. So if there is a problem it must be with our understanding.
In your first example Jesus confronted Nicodemus about being born again, which is descriptive of a death and a rebirth.
I believe this is true for all scripture in that it is understood by revelation.
Jesus told Peter that on this rock... the rock being revelation.

Gods word is perfect in the Greek which it was pinned. In theses texts, there were no chapter and verse, no punctuation. Now we have the English translations which have chapter and verse, punctuation that's different in each one of the 250 translations at last count.

We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

 

[Major]

Gods word is perfect in the Greek which it was pinned. In theses texts, there were no chapter and verse, no punctuation. Now we have the English translations which have chapter and verse, punctuation that's different in each one of the 250 translations at last count.

We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

Then what about the Old Testament which is basically Hebrew. Is it less than the Word of God because it was pinned in the language of THAT day.

I hope that you understand what I say when I say to you that Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.

I believe that if one looks a little deeper into this one will see that Augustine, for example, compared a Christian’s use of Greek philosophy to Israel’s use of gold taken from Egypt during the Exodus (Ex. 12:25-36). Like any physical tool, he argued, philosophy was capable of being used either rightly or wrongly. Philosophy which came from the Greeks might have been developed by an ungodly culture, Augustine contended, but it was ultimately just a set of techniques and terms, entirely useful in defending the truth.

So WHY was the Greek translated into common speaking languages? For better understanding!!!!

Example:
The book of Yahoshua (Joshua) in the Greek Septuagint is named Iseous naus in Greek, meaning Joshua Son of Nun.
If you lived back then you would have called Jesus the Messiah- Iesous christos in Greek, and Yeshua ha Mashiach when speaking Hebrew. Jesus would respond to either of these names. The proof is found in the Scripture.

 

[faither]

Then what about the Old Testament which is basically Hebrew. Is it less than the Word of God because it was pinned in the language of THAT day.

I hope that you understand what I say when I say to you that Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.

I believe that if one looks a little deeper into this one will see that Augustine, for example, compared a Christian’s use of Greek philosophy to Israel’s use of gold taken from Egypt during the Exodus (Ex. 12:25-36). Like any physical tool, he argued, philosophy was capable of being used either rightly or wrongly. Philosophy which came from the Greeks might have been developed by an ungodly culture, Augustine contended, but it was ultimately just a set of techniques and terms, entirely useful in defending the truth.

So WHY was the Greek translated into common speaking languages? For better understanding!!!!

Example:
The book of Yahoshua (Joshua) in the Greek Septuagint is named Iseous naus in Greek, meaning Joshua Son of Nun.
If you lived back then you would have called Jesus the Messiah- Iesous christos in Greek, and Yeshua ha Mashiach when speaking Hebrew. Jesus would respond to either of these names. The proof is found in the Scripture.

The Hebrew is the worst language on the planet. Any scholar worth his salt would tell you that.

 

[Major]

The Hebrew is the worst language on the planet. Any scholar worth his salt would tell you that.

I know!

But that was not my point.

My point was aimed at your comment of.........."Gods word is perfect in the Greek which it was pinned."

Now you do realize that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic, don't you? Historians, archaeologists, and cultural anthropologists are almost universally agreed that Aramaic was the common or colloquial language in Israel during Jesus’ time.

 

[BibleLover]

The Hebrew is the worst language on the planet. Any scholar worth his salt would tell you that.

Why do you say that? In seminary, I took 2 years of Hebrew, and with the the exception of the difficulty with learning the language, I found it no worse than Mandarin or Russian. It has its own unique character, well suited to Old Testament expression.

 

[2404]

I found Hebrew much easier than Greek i suppose because less is know about Hebrew. But all that aside, God is omniscient and omnipotent, we are beating ourselves up for no reason. God did not place His Word here that only the scholars can enter in on the contrary He said 'except you be like a child' that rules out all esotericism.
God being omniscient implies that one can not even have a thought without God's foreknowledge.
The Bible we have is exactly as God would have it.

 

[Major]

I found Hebrew much easier than Greek i suppose because less is know about Hebrew. But all that aside, God is omniscient and omnipotent, we are beating ourselves up for no reason. God did not place His Word here that only the scholars can enter in on the contrary He said 'except you be like a child' that rules out all esotericism.
God being omniscient implies that one can not even have a thought without God's foreknowledge.
The Bible we have is exactly as God would have it.

I had to study both and to this day I have never had one single person utter one word of Greek or Hebrew!!!!

 

[faither]

Why do you say that? In seminary, I took 2 years of Hebrew, and with the the exception of the difficulty with learning the language, I found it no worse than Mandarin or Russian. It has its own unique character, well suited to Old Testament expression.

This was told to me by a Dr. of theology from Sandford university who mined truths out of all the different dialects for over 50 years. He spoke and taught from over 22 languages. He amassed the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands, second only to the Vatican. He used these ancient manuscripts to teach for over 50 years.

I guess when you say Hebrew was easier than the Greek, thats not what i meant to convey. What i was saying is what i would quote from him , "the Greek is the most precise language on the planet, the Hebrew is the most unprecise language on the planet." Its's not about which one is easier, but which one has the ability the communicate the writers message accurately.

 

[faither]

I know!

But that was not my point.

My point was aimed at your comment of.........."Gods word is perfect in the Greek which it was pinned."

Now you do realize that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic, don't you? Historians, archaeologists, and cultural anthropologists are almost universally agreed that Aramaic was the common or colloquial language in Israel during Jesus’ time.

I trust that these first reporters were honest, and led by the Spirit of Christ. So the language they chose to communicate Gods message is the datum point to all other translations. All other translations in any other language must be filtered through these original texts.

 

[crossnote]

All other translations in any other language must be filtered through these original texts.

Since we don’t have the original texts, all the fragments, partials and early copies, that we do have, must be filtered through each other.

 

[Major]

I trust that these first reporters were honest, and led by the Spirit of Christ. So the language they chose to communicate Gods message is the datum point to all other translations. All other translations in any other language must be filtered through these original texts.

Read post #13 as that is the KEY!

 

[Major]

Since we don’t have the original texts, all the fragments, partials and early copies, that we do have, must be filtered through each other.

Amen!

 

[Major]

I trust that these first reporters were honest, and led by the Spirit of Christ. So the language they chose to communicate Gods message is the datum point to all other translations. All other translations in any other language must be filtered through these original texts.

I do not think that honesty is in question here. "Language" was your thesis.

With all due respect and Christian love to you.......IMHO, YOU are placing way too much emphasis on the Greek language. Many here on this forum have studied the Greek in years past but no one here makes posts in Greek. WHY is that?????

Because NO ONE understands it or speaks it!

Let me ask you this question............ If God were to communicate a message to the whole world, wouldn’t he have to make it simple enough to be understandable?

As a professor of mine used to say, "do we imagine God is sitting up in heaven, looking down on all us poor dopes saying , they’re all so stupid! Let me give this message to just a few less stupid ones I’ll call theologians and they can convey the meaning to everyone else” ?

Not hardly! The Bible, it has been said, is shallow enough for a child to wade, and deep enough for an elephant to swim. If all you can understand is 10%, don’t let those who can understand 90% bother you. You are responsible for the light of revelation you have been given, and God will not dock you points for not being able to understand more than you’re able.

The bottom line that I want to convey is this: the in’s and out’s of the TEXT of Scripture is best understood in its original language just like any communication translated into another language. However, the MEANING of scripture can be determined without the original language with careful reading, especially if multiple translations/versions are read together.

 

[faither]

Since we don’t have the original texts, all the fragments, partials and early copies, that we do have, must be filtered through each other.

One thing for sure, if we are depending on only the English language or texts to show how we connect with God, that's a huge problem and why the called out ones are in the state they're in today.

I think you would be surprised how many of the early texts are still available. My gifted teacher collected biblical manuscripts for over 50 years. He amassed the largest collect of biblical manuscripts in private hands , only second to the Vatican. This collection is what he taught from, painstakingly comparing all available languages to see which ones were closest to some original, or earliest texts. He possessed dead sea scrolls, rooms full of early Hebraic scrolls. It took me 8 hours to just walk by and view the collection all under glass. He also owned the Rembrandt painting of Abraham starting to sacrifice Isaac. He collected theses things to preserve them, and to honor the blood spit over them through out history. It was and honor to not only see this world class collection, but to be taught from it for over 30 years.

 

[faither]

One thing for sure, if we are depending on only the English language or texts to show how we connect with God, that's a huge problem and why the called out ones are in the state they're in today.

I think you would be surprised how many of the early texts are still available. My gifted teacher collected biblical manuscripts for over 50 years. He amassed the largest collect of biblical manuscripts in private hands , only second to the Vatican. This collection is what he taught from, painstakingly comparing all available languages to see which ones were closest to some original, or earliest texts. He possessed dead sea scrolls, rooms full of early Hebraic scrolls. It took me 8 hours to just walk by and view the collection all under glass. He also owned the Rembrandt painting of Abraham starting to sacrifice Isaac. He collected theses things to preserve them, and to honor the blood spit over them through out history. It was and honor to not only see this world class collection, but to be taught from it for over 30 years.

Oh, He also was Dr. of theology from Stanford.

 

[crossnote]

One thing for sure, if we are depending on only the English language or texts to show how we connect with God, that's a huge problem and why the called out ones are in the state they're in today.

I think you would be surprised how many of the early texts are still available. My gifted teacher collected biblical manuscripts for over 50 years. He amassed the largest collect of biblical manuscripts in private hands , only second to the Vatican. This collection is what he taught from, painstakingly comparing all available languages to see which ones were closest to some original, or earliest texts. He possessed dead sea scrolls, rooms full of early Hebraic scrolls. It took me 8 hours to just walk by and view the collection all under glass. He also owned the Rembrandt painting of Abraham starting to sacrifice Isaac. He collected theses things to preserve them, and to honor the blood spit over them through out history. It was and honor to not only see this world class collection, but to be taught from it for over 30 years.

Yes, but none of your gifted teacher’s collection were originals, correct? You can have tenfold thousands of mss and still need to filter with what you have unless you have the originals.Titles don’t impress God, whatever.

 

[Major]

Oh, He also was Dr. of theology from Stanford.

Stanford has a theology department? Who knew that?

Isn't it a very "Liberal thinking" university?