sorry but i have to disagree
Not Appointed to Wrath
- Thread starter DavyP
- Start date
DP, the angel didn't say He would return for His Church at the same place, but in like 'manner'.
In other words, His coming for His Church will be in "like manner," with the showering of blessing.
When He returns to stand once again on this earth, He will be coming in wrath and indignation.
Those are therefore two entirely different events.
I agree with you in that His second coming, when His feet touch the ground, it will indeed by in that same mount.
Good point.
MM
Sorry, but I do not see a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation" written in God's Word. I do not reject the idea of the 'rapture', just not the version that John Darby in 1830's Britain started which you appear to be following. Furthermore, the word 'rapture' is not written in God's Word. It comes from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo, which is written in the Greek New Testament, and means to seize, translated as "caught up" in the KJV. I instead use that phrase "caught up", simply because of those on a pre-trib rapture theory using the sole world 'rapture' all the time when they are actually pointing to a pre-trib caught up idea, which is not written.
I disagree with your premise. And my rejection of a Pre-trib Rapture is solid per God's written Word. You brought it up, so I must be allowed to defend my Biblical position.
In the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, Lord Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation of those days. He was emphatic with that timing, so I see no excuse for those who reject what He said there. And He was speaking that to His Church, since He was giving the Signs of the Seals of Revelation 6 which is to ALL Churches.
I won't argue that either, and I am unmovable about it, so no amount of, "I'm sorry you don't want to go to Heaven" phrase type ploys will change what Lord Jesus said there.
Instead, I feel sorry for those folks deceived to the false pre-trib rapture theory, which was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Britain by John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, the Christian Church had always held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church, for 1800 years.
So you read the Zechariah 14 Chapter about Jesus' feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives?
Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5, and I can see it by the terms you are using it's because of the false pre-trib rapture theory.
You have just said .........
"Instead, I feel sorry for those folks deceived to the false pre-trib rapture theory, which was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Britain by John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, the Christian Church had always held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church, for 1800 years."
It has long been claimed by those who interpret prophecy allegorically that the doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture is a new doctrine, and since it is allegedly a new doctrine it cannot be a true one.
I see that you have done the same thing and may I say to you with all due respect that all the Scriptures you have read and denied were actually written 2000 years ago and on top of that....there are countless pictures of the Rapture in the Old test. So the thought of the Rapture as a New Doctrine hence it should be rejected is just plain in error.
When it is said that the pre-tribulation Rapture did not exist prior to 1830, that is a referrance to "The Morning Watch " prophecy journal and the writings of John Darby which popularized dispensational theology in the 1800s.
Though this claim continues to be made, it is patently false. PAUL wrote about the Rapture in 1 Corinthians and ! Thessalonians.
Not only that but EPHRAEM THE SYRIAN (AD c. 303-373) was a voluminous writer. Many of his sermons and psalms are included in the 16-volume Post-Nicene Library. (The Council of Nicea was held in AD 325, and historians divide the “fathers” into Ante-Nicene, before 325, and Post-Nicene, after 325).
He wrote.............
EPHRAEM THE SYRIAN (AD c. 303-373)
We now go back to two centuries after the apostles. Ephraem is venerated as a “saint” by the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but they would not allow him to teach his doctrine of prophecy today.
Ephraem is called “the Syrian” because he lived in that region.
He was a voluminous writer. Many of his sermons and psalms are included in the 16-volume Post-Nicene Library. (The Council of Nicea was held in AD 325, and historians divide the “fathers” into Ante-Nicene, before 325, and Post-Nicene, after 325).
One of these being On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, A.D. 373.
In that production he wrote..............
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins”
Source : (Ephraem the Syrian, On the Last Times).
Davy......PLEASE, shall we be civil and respectful of each other!!!!
OK.
Do you accept the TRINITY?
IT is not in the Bible either.
Do you believe the BIBLE.
That word is not in the Bible either!!!!!
Then lets call it "Caught Up"!
Or how about...."The Gathering"?.
Why is a new important?
Agreed!.
I rely on what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse about the timing of His coming and gathering of His saints, which to me supersedes any outside idea of a coming and a gathering of the Church prior to the tribulation.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
And if one really pays attention to what He said there as to where those saints are gathered 'from', it reveals what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the coming of Jesus and His gathering of the Church. (see the phrases I underlined).
Sorry, hard for me to see it differently because of what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5.
I definitely accept the idea of the Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And yes it actually is... in The Bible. It's simply not described the way those against the idea like to admit. In the Book of John, Jesus is shown as God, so is The Holy Spirit Comforter shown as part of The Godhead. And of course The Father is part of The Godhead. I have a hard time understanding how any Bible believing Christian would not recognize this.
Believing about the word 'Bible' really doesn't prove anything, the word is from Greek biblos meaning book.
Yeah, I like the 'gathering' description too bro. But I hope you understand why I don't like to use the word 'rapture', even though I definitely believe the Greek 'harpazo' event when Jesus gathers His faithful Church.
My point was that you simply can not reject something because the actual word is not found.
Trinity and Bible were two examples.
I understand, however you must keep in mind that you are talking to other people and "drunken" is probably not the right phrase to use.
Just saying that maybe a better word there would have been......."I understand it differently than others do"!
Remember brother Romans 12:3......
" For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. "
Davey......Matthew 24:29–31 and Mark 13:24-27 are " parallel " Scriptures and in my opinion do not describe the Rapture but instead the actual events of Christ's return to earth, also known as the second coming.
It begins with events in the heavens, including the light of the sun being darkened and the light of the moon being lost. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear. It will be seen by all the nations of the earth, and they will mourn to see the Christ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory. When He arrives, He will send His angels to the four corners of the earth to gather His elect. His "ELECT" are the ones who have come to Christ during the Tribulation and actually nothing to do with the "Gathering/Rapture. "
Jesus makes two very important statements that help us understand He is referring to the 2nd Coming.
First, He says that the world will mourn when they see Him in the clouds. This event is described in Zechariah 12:12. Christians will not be mourning at the rapture, but people will be mourning when they see Christ coming at the battle of Armageddon.
Second, Christ says that the Son of Man will come on the clouds with power and great glory. Zechariah 14:1-6 describes His coming at the battle of Armageddon and He does come in great power, splitting the Mount of Olives and defeating the nations of the world.
Verse 31 does not describe judgment, but the gathering of Christians in preparation for Christ’s millennial kingdom. This verse summarizes the sheep and goat judgment which He later describes in greater detail in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and goat judgment determines who will be allowed to enter Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
Of course, any and all are welcome to disagree.
Always a blessing to talk with you brother.
Genesis 3:15 is not all that "curious"
The word “seed” (or offspring) = The Hebrew word is singular, so it could refer to a single individual. It can also refer to a collective group composed of multiple individuals (as in “Israel,” “the Church,” and “the children of the devil”).
The context demands that the antagonism of the devil’s seed against the woman’s seed in the first half of the verse refers to the ongoing spiritual battle raging between the ungodly children of Satan (John 8:38-44) and the godly seed of the woman (those who fear God, obey His Word and love others – 1 John 3:1-10).
We know that has to be the case because the Word of God tells us that angels, both fallen and unfallen do not reproduce in Matthew 22:30 when speaking on heaven.......... For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. !
I disagree.
Those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses directly link to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. In the Matthew 24 version it's about the saints being gathering from Heaven, the resurrected saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. In the Mark 13 version, it is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Him, and them. All one need do is pay attention to where those saints are being gathered from in each version.
I do not see written any evidence of Christ's coming PRIOR to the "great tribulation". He returns just ONE time is what I see, and that is on the last day of this world, on the "day of the Lord".
Lord Jesus gave 7 main Signs of the end there in His Olivet discourse. And the last Sign is that of His coming to gather His Church. That is why He talks about the day of His coming in relation to the 'thief' breaking in metaphor. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch, same theme He taught in His Olivet discourse. And after that Revelation 16:15 event He mentions the battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial being poured out into the "air". That is the day of His future coming to gather His saints, and is what will end the coming "great tribulation" upon His Church.
Thus the teaching by Apostles Paul and Peter about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is the same timing that Lord Jesus was teaching about the day of His coming to gather His Church, using the "as a thief" metaphor. This makes sense especially with 2 Peter 3:10 where Peter said on that "day of the Lord" God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth and end this present world. If that happened at any other time prior to the last day of this world, then the tribulation event could never happen.
So like I said, I am immovable regarding my stance in support of the Scriptures on this. I see no pre-trib rapture at all written, but a post-trib 'rapture' (if you will), which is the second coming.
Nice talking with you brother. Be safe and may the Lord bless you!
Thank you.
Well, I will not attacking you personally with the pettiness of ad hominem as you did me, but suffice it to say that you misrepresented what I said. What you believe about eschatology is neither here nor there. We all have our individual thoughts on it all, which is fine for each one of us. It is a peripheral issue along with many other topics.
MM