Not Appointed to Wrath

[DavyP]

I want to cover what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 5, because I keep hearing from some quote Paul in saying the we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to wrath. This is where they are pulling that single verse from in The Bible. I'll give a fair warning to those who believe this is in connection with a pre-trib rapture theory, Paul is not teaching any such idea as that here in this Bible chapter.

Apostle Paul just finished revealing the events of Christ's future coming and gathering of His faithful Church in 1 Thessalonians 4. Whether one knows it or not, this next chapter Paul actually reveals some events about that future 'day' of Christ's coming, giving us some of the Signs of that day.

1 Thess 5:1-9
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul's "times and the seasons" is about what? Well what is that idea about the "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"? Did you know that Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15? Lord Jesus taught that concept in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 also, about the goodman of the house being on watch for the thief breaking in. Lord Jesus linked that idea with the unknown day of His coming.

Here in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul is linking that day of Christ's coming to gather us with the "day of the Lord". You will find God gave His Old Testament prophets to write much about future events to happen on that "day of the Lord". That is where Apostle Paul is actually pulling this from. That is what his "times and the seasons" are about he mentions. And he says those at the Thessalonian Church have no need for him to teach them about those "times and the seasons", because they already knew them. But how?

What Scripture was available to them in that time? The Old Testament Scripture mainly. That is how they already knew about events to happen on that "day of the Lord". Not only that came from OT Scripture, but so did what Lord Jesus taught about the thief breaking in idea; it originates from the idea of the "day of the Lord" coming suddenly, at an instant per the OT prophets.

Isaiah 13 says that "day of the Lord" will come as a destruction from The Almighty. It will be cruel from God's fierce anger and wrath. Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 says that "day of the Lord" will accompany a destruction of man's works off this earth by God's consuming fire.

Thusly, this is Paul's "times and the seasons" subject here from the start. (And no man knows the day or hour of Christ's future return. That doesn't mean we cannot know the "times and the seasons" leading up to Christ's coming like Paul shows there.)


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When who begins to say, "Peace and safety"? The wicked and deceived.

One of the events Lord Jesus showed us in His Olivet discourse was the idea of a fake peace for the very end, during the coming "great tribulation". Many brethren miss it, but it's there, in Matthew 24:6 and Mark 13:7 that we would hear of wars and rumors of wars, but not to be troubled because those things must be, but... the END is not yet. That means as a long as wars and rumors of wars are going on today, the time of the END with the "great tribulation" has not arrived yet. So that must mean what kind... of time for the END? A time when all wars and rumors of wars have stopped, which means a time of world peace, yet a fake peace.

On that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes to end this world, that "Peace and safety" is what the deceived and wicked will be yelling. Why? Because they will think that Lord Jesus has already arrived, when it will be a pseudo-Christ imposter that appears first in Jerusalem. Never heard of that false one?

Lord Jesus warned about that false one coming first in His Olivet discourse, per Matthew 24:23-26. (In the Matthew 24:24 verse the KJV translators brought the Greek pseudochristos into English as "false Christs" in the plural. But the actual context of those 23-26 verses are singular, about a specific false-Christ). The parallel Scripture about that false one is with the "man of sin" by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, and the "another beast" of Revelation 13 by Apostle John. They connect by those deceiving great signs and wonders that coming pseudo-Christ is to work in Jerusalem for the END.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Paul is linking awareness of those "times and the seasons" with that "day of the Lord" time, with Jesus' future coming to gather us. He even says that "day of the Lord" is NOT to surprise us like a thief in the night. (Remember, Jesus said He comes "as a thief"). What does Paul ultimately mean by that? It means we are to be 'watching' those Signs leading up to Christ's future return which He gave us, His Church. Jesus even said blessed are those who 'watch' (Revelation 16:15).

But WHAT are we to 'watch'? Just watch for His coming in the clouds?

More than that; we are to be 'watching' the "times and the seasons" like Paul was pointing to here, like that Sign of the deceived saying, "Peace and safety" because when all wars have stopped they will believe on the coming Antichrist in place of Christ. And on the day when Jesus appears after that, those will suffer a "sudden destruction" with the end of this present world.


7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul compares the children of darkness as those who are spiritually asleep, and spiritually drunk in the night. They are not aware of this "day of the Lord" of a "sudden destruction" coming upon them on the day of Christ appearing to end this present world at the time. For those, they are not 'watching' the "times and the seasons" that Paul mentions. In Revelation 11, the deceived will hate the prophesying of God's two witnesses so much, thus ruining their "Peace and safety" belief, that when the two witnesses are killed, those deceived will buy each other gifts, partying it up, not aware of the "sudden destruction" coming upon them next with Christ's return on the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:8-10).


8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Now you should... have a better clue as to which "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to there with that "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying that, "Peace and safety".

Is that us, Christ's Church that will be saying that?

Not Christ's faithful Church who stay in His Word and not the traditions of men. Those who will be saying that are the wicked and deceived, those who are not aware of that "day of the Lord" on the last day, and what it is about with the end of this present world (see 2 Peter 3:10 about that day if you need a reminder).

This "wrath" here is about GOD's wrath and fierce anger on the LAST DAY of this present world, and it is upon the wicked and deceived. It is not about Satan's wrath against Christ's elect during the coming "great tribulation". This "wrath" here Paul points to is about God's cup of wrath poured out on the FINAL day of this world with the 7th Vial of Revelation 16. That is why Lord Jesus is still... warning His faithful Church within the 6th Vial timing per Revelation 16:15 that He comes "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch and keep their garments.

So why... do some teach totally opposite of what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 5 about God's wrath upon the wicked, that "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord"? Some even wrongly teach that "day of the Lord" is the time of the seven years great tribulation, when it is not. That "day of the Lord" = the final day of this world when Jesus returns, His only... future return to gather His faithful Church.

 

[ModeratorTeam]

Just a brief update - Do to a slight word usage misunderstanding, that has now been corrected, this thread may continue, with Forum Rules in mind.

Thank you for your understanding and patience.


`

 

[Dave F.]

What about the other vials? Aer they not also filled with HIS wrath?

 

[D3vot3d2G0d]

I agree DavyP,

We are not to act as foolish children frolicking, eating and drinking thinking we have tomorrow. Instead we are instructed to be sober and vigilant, fully awake and aware of the approaching of the " day of our Lord" at ALL times !

I see it as you, for the coming of the Lord is our cloud of deliverance before GOD'S GREAT WRATH is poured upon the wicked and those who have rejected God.

God's grace is sufficient in all circumstances that come at us, and we are NOT to be shaken or moved from our position of watchfulness.

Let us watch therefore and be at the ready.................

 

[Musicmaster]

Id like to share some thoughts about this, if I may:

When Jesus was taken up from those who loved Him, and them being the only ones who could see Him, He was showering them with blessings and instruction. What did the angels say to the men standing there, looking up after He was taken p out of their site?

Acts 1:10-11

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Now, in Revelation, at His actual Second Coming, when His feet touch down on this earth, it is NOT in like manner as He had departed:

Rev 19:11-15

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What those two angels said about His departure and returning in like manner, that coming does not at all resemble the actual Second Coming we see in Revelation 19, so there must be two different 'comings'...one when His feet are not said to touch down on this earth when we are gathered up to Him, and the other when His feet DO touch down on Mt. Zion, and His raiment, vesture, and on a horse, which is not how He departed, etc. The contrast is striking enough to realize the purpose for the appearing of our Lord in the clouds, and the trump sounding for the dead, and the last trump for the living to be called up.

What a wonderful promise, especially in light of the PURPOSE for the Day of the Lord, which is for Israel, not the Church.

Just some interesting thoughts for pondering and sharing.

MM

 

[D3vot3d2G0d]

Hi all,
My thoughts about the final act.
Now Revelations is a complicated book with lots of symbols and metaphors and is hard to understand.
As for myself I tend to be a literal person is why past the first few chapters, my head starts spinning.
I think we ALL may have a preconceived misunderstanding of the events to happen.
My thought is our focus on the division is very different. We know there are pre, mid, and post believers . When I read and thoughtfully ponder Revelations happenings, I look at these 2 events....the GREAT TRIBULATIONS which Jesus said have never been before. Mt. 24:21 Tribulations according to Rms. are enacted upon one who holds to something outside the norm. The TRIBULATIONS and PERSECUTIONS are aimed at this ppl.

We are to be a holy peculiar ppl, which sets us apart at the start. TRIBULATIONS comes upon " christians" ,has always done so down through the ages. We claim a higher Master to the Prince of this world. It will anger him so hotly that we will be the object of his anger at God.

Paul instructed throughout his epistles that to bring our patience up to par we would have tribulations. Rms 5:3. ( context 1-4 ) Now patience is a POWERFUL emotion bc it also promotes action. If you are patient for an object, person or event it MEANS YOU ENDURE, and by enduring ;WAIT ,for the end of that desire to be fulfilled !

My thought as I've stated above the " great tribulations won't be aimed at evil, but AT US FOLLOWERS AND BELIEVERS by the Prince of evil wickedness !
God's WRATH will NOT be aimed at his children but rather at evil, the devil and all its workers. There to me are the two events in Revelations, God thru John warns us of.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi all,
My thoughts about the final act.
Now Revelations is a complicated book with lots of symbols and metaphors and is hard to understand.
As for myself I tend to be a literal person is why past the first few chapters, my head starts spinning.
I think we ALL may have a preconceived misunderstanding of the events to happen.
My thought is our focus on the division is very different. We know there are pre, mid, and post believers . When I read and thoughtfully ponder Revelations happenings, I look at these 2 events....the GREAT TRIBULATIONS which Jesus said have never been before. Mt. 24:21 Tribulations according to Rms. are enacted upon one who holds to something outside the norm. The TRIBULATIONS and PERSECUTIONS are aimed at this ppl.

We are to be a holy peculiar ppl, which sets us apart at the start. TRIBULATIONS comes upon " christians" ,has always done so down through the ages. We claim a higher Master to the Prince of this world. It will anger him so hotly that we will be the object of his anger at God.

Paul instructed throughout his epistles that to bring our patience up to par we would have tribulations. Rms 5:3. ( context 1-4 ) Now patience is a POWERFUL emotion bc it also promotes action. If you are patient for an object, person or event it MEANS YOU ENDURE, and by enduring ;WAIT ,for the end of that desire to be fulfilled !

My thought as I've stated above the " great tribulations won't be aimed at evil, but AT US FOLLOWERS AND BELIEVERS by the Prince of evil wickedness !
God's WRATH will NOT be aimed at his children but rather at evil, the devil and all its workers. There to me are the two events in Revelations, God thru John warns us of.

My dear sister (DISCLAIMER: your screen name is in pink, thus the gender specific noun), may I posit something along this line?

I love how Dr. John Barnett talks about Revelation, how it is, first and foremost, a true Revelation of Christ Jesus, and Him alone. With that approach, the plausibility for understanding Revelation becomes less cumbersome. Does that make sense?

What I have noticed from his talks about that book and from personal reading, it seems reasonable to observe that there is far more literalism in Revelation than what most people tend to attribute to its chapters and verses. Taking this approach has greatly helped me to see more than I had ever seen before. When we recognize the various shifts to earth, then to Heaven, then back to earth, etc., the seeming mysteries tend to diminish somewhat.

Perhaps I'm speaking more to others here who are seeking to gain some greater understanding for the book of Revelation, but it is nice to hear what someone like Barnett has to say about the various chapters of that book. I can't find anyone who has done anywhere near as exhaustive a study on that book, in video, as Barnett, who once served under Dr. John McArthur.

MM

 

[D3vot3d2G0d]

My dear sister (DISCLAIMER: your screen name is in pink, thus the gender specific noun), may I posit something along this line?

I love how Dr. John Barnett talks about Revelation, how it is, first and foremost, a true Revelation of Christ Jesus, and Him alone. With that approach, the plausibility for understanding Revelation becomes less cumbersome. Does that make sense?

What I have noticed from his talks about that book and from personal reading, it seems reasonable to observe that there is far more literalism in Revelation than what most people tend to attribute to its chapters and verses. Taking this approach has greatly helped me to see more than I had ever seen before. When we recognize the various shifts to earth, then to Heaven, then back to earth, etc., the seeming mysteries tend to diminish somewhat.

Perhaps I'm speaking more to others here who are seeking to gain some greater understanding for the book of Revelation, but it is nice to hear what someone like Barnett has to say about the various chapters of that book. I can't find anyone who has done anywhere near as exhaustive a study on that book, in video, as Barnett, who once served under Dr. John McArthur.

MM

Thank you MM,
I will certainly look at his study.
Since I think literally, my mind can't conceive things like scorpions that sting for 5 months that come out of the ground.

I know Hollywood has visualized much in their apocalyptic movies which may explain why I can't correlate the vision John was given with things I KNOW to be true...........get it?

In any event, what I understand is our way to exhibit Christ is mostly literal behaviours.
I can see the need for knowledge of and understanding in Revelations.........but I ain't really expert in that area.

Thanks I will give it a looksie ❤

 

[Major]

I want to cover what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 5, because I keep hearing from some quote Paul in saying the we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to wrath. This is where they are pulling that single verse from in The Bible. I'll give a fair warning to those who believe this is in connection with a pre-trib rapture theory, Paul is not teaching any such idea as that here in this Bible chapter.

Apostle Paul just finished revealing the events of Christ's future coming and gathering of His faithful Church in 1 Thessalonians 4. Whether one knows it or not, this next chapter Paul actually reveals some events about that future 'day' of Christ's coming, giving us some of the Signs of that day.

1 Thess 5:1-9
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul's "times and the seasons" is about what? Well what is that idea about the "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"? Did you know that Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15? Lord Jesus taught that concept in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 also, about the goodman of the house being on watch for the thief breaking in. Lord Jesus linked that idea with the unknown day of His coming.

Here in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul is linking that day of Christ's coming to gather us with the "day of the Lord". You will find God gave His Old Testament prophets to write much about future events to happen on that "day of the Lord". That is where Apostle Paul is actually pulling this from. That is what his "times and the seasons" are about he mentions. And he says those at the Thessalonian Church have no need for him to teach them about those "times and the seasons", because they already knew them. But how?

What Scripture was available to them in that time? The Old Testament Scripture mainly. That is how they already knew about events to happen on that "day of the Lord". Not only that came from OT Scripture, but so did what Lord Jesus taught about the thief breaking in idea; it originates from the idea of the "day of the Lord" coming suddenly, at an instant per the OT prophets.

Isaiah 13 says that "day of the Lord" will come as a destruction from The Almighty. It will be cruel from God's fierce anger and wrath. Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 says that "day of the Lord" will accompany a destruction of man's works off this earth by God's consuming fire.

Thusly, this is Paul's "times and the seasons" subject here from the start. (And no man knows the day or hour of Christ's future return. That doesn't mean we cannot know the "times and the seasons" leading up to Christ's coming like Paul shows there.)


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When who begins to say, "Peace and safety"? The wicked and deceived.

One of the events Lord Jesus showed us in His Olivet discourse was the idea of a fake peace for the very end, during the coming "great tribulation". Many brethren miss it, but it's there, in Matthew 24:6 and Mark 13:7 that we would hear of wars and rumors of wars, but not to be troubled because those things must be, but... the END is not yet. That means as a long as wars and rumors of wars are going on today, the time of the END with the "great tribulation" has not arrived yet. So that must mean what kind... of time for the END? A time when all wars and rumors of wars have stopped, which means a time of world peace, yet a fake peace.

On that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes to end this world, that "Peace and safety" is what the deceived and wicked will be yelling. Why? Because they will think that Lord Jesus has already arrived, when it will be a pseudo-Christ imposter that appears first in Jerusalem. Never heard of that false one?

Lord Jesus warned about that false one coming first in His Olivet discourse, per Matthew 24:23-26. (In the Matthew 24:24 verse the KJV translators brought the Greek pseudochristos into English as "false Christs" in the plural. But the actual context of those 23-26 verses are singular, about a specific false-Christ). The parallel Scripture about that false one is with the "man of sin" by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, and the "another beast" of Revelation 13 by Apostle John. They connect by those deceiving great signs and wonders that coming pseudo-Christ is to work in Jerusalem for the END.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Paul is linking awareness of those "times and the seasons" with that "day of the Lord" time, with Jesus' future coming to gather us. He even says that "day of the Lord" is NOT to surprise us like a thief in the night. (Remember, Jesus said He comes "as a thief"). What does Paul ultimately mean by that? It means we are to be 'watching' those Signs leading up to Christ's future return which He gave us, His Church. Jesus even said blessed are those who 'watch' (Revelation 16:15).

But WHAT are we to 'watch'? Just watch for His coming in the clouds?

More than that; we are to be 'watching' the "times and the seasons" like Paul was pointing to here, like that Sign of the deceived saying, "Peace and safety" because when all wars have stopped they will believe on the coming Antichrist in place of Christ. And on the day when Jesus appears after that, those will suffer a "sudden destruction" with the end of this present world.


7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul compares the children of darkness as those who are spiritually asleep, and spiritually drunk in the night. They are not aware of this "day of the Lord" of a "sudden destruction" coming upon them on the day of Christ appearing to end this present world at the time. For those, they are not 'watching' the "times and the seasons" that Paul mentions. In Revelation 11, the deceived will hate the prophesying of God's two witnesses so much, thus ruining their "Peace and safety" belief, that when the two witnesses are killed, those deceived will buy each other gifts, partying it up, not aware of the "sudden destruction" coming upon them next with Christ's return on the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:8-10).


8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Now you should... have a better clue as to which "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to there with that "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying that, "Peace and safety".

Is that us, Christ's Church that will be saying that?

Not Christ's faithful Church who stay in His Word and not the traditions of men. Those who will be saying that are the wicked and deceived, those who are not aware of that "day of the Lord" on the last day, and what it is about with the end of this present world (see 2 Peter 3:10 about that day if you need a reminder).

This "wrath" here is about GOD's wrath and fierce anger on the LAST DAY of this present world, and it is upon the wicked and deceived. It is not about Satan's wrath against Christ's elect during the coming "great tribulation". This "wrath" here Paul points to is about God's cup of wrath poured out on the FINAL day of this world with the 7th Vial of Revelation 16. That is why Lord Jesus is still... warning His faithful Church within the 6th Vial timing per Revelation 16:15 that He comes "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch and keep their garments.

So why... do some teach totally opposite of what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 5 about God's wrath upon the wicked, that "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord"? Some even wrongly teach that "day of the Lord" is the time of the seven years great tribulation, when it is not. That "day of the Lord" = the final day of this world when Jesus returns, His only... future return to gather His faithful Church.

Well, allow me to say that in verse #1......"Times and season" are not the property of the church. They belong to this earth and to eartly people, both Israel and Gentiles. who will be saved during the Tribulation peroid.

As for "looking for" -- the church is LOOKING FOR a Person not for "times and Seasons".

The Greek word for "time" here is CHRONOS from which we get "Chronology". The chronology is not for the church.

In verse #2......the Lord Jesus does not come to the church like a thief in the night!!!! When we carefully read CONTEXTUALLY ALL Scriptures we see that the church should be looking for and waiting for the Lord Jesus to come. That removes the idea of sneaking in.

The "Day of the Lord" is a technical term and refers to a time of judgment and actually covers several events. It refers to and includes.....
1) the Lord’s judgment of nations in the Old Testament
2) the judgments during the Tribulation Period
3) the judgment at the Second Coming
4) the judgment when God destroys the heavens and the earth.

The term “that day,” “the great day” and “the day” occurs more than 75 times in the Old Testament and the idea of judgment is CONTEXTUALLY seen in all of them. WRATH is the focus.

Then we come to verse # 9..........
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our LORD Jesus Christ.

The Day of the Lord is about WRATH and JUDGMENT and God tells us that the church is NOT APPOINTED us wrath!

The day of the Lord will arrive like a thief in the night, which is not a welcome event for those who do not Know Christ.
Also, it brings God's wrath upon unbelievers, whereas Christians—children of the light/saved people—will experience full salvation at the rapture.

While waiting for final salvation, we as Christians ought to lead a righteous life. This involves proper respect for church leaders. The Lord has placed them in positions of authority and trust over the church. Church members ought to hold them in high regard because of the ministry they perform. Christians also have a responsibility to be at peace with one another (1 Thessalonians 5:12–13).

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, allow me to say that in verse #1......"Times and season" are not the property of the church. They belong to this earth and to eartly people, both Israel and Gentiles. who will be saved during the Tribulation peroid.

As for "looking for" -- the church is LOOKING FOR a Person not for "times and Seasons".

The Greek word for "time" here is CHRONOS from which we get "Chronology". The chronology is not for the church.

In verse #2......the Lord Jesus does not come to the church like a thief in the night!!!! When we carefully read CONTEXTUALLY ALL Scriptures we see that the church should be looking for and waiting for the Lord Jesus to come. That removes the idea of sneaking in.

The "Day of the Lord" is a technical term and refers to a time of judgment and actually covers several events. It refers to and includes.....
1) the Lord’s judgment of nations in the Old Testament
2) the judgments during the Tribulation Period
3) the judgment at the Second Coming
4) the judgment when God destroys the heavens and the earth.

The term “that day,” “the great day” and “the day” occurs more than 75 times in the Old Testament and the idea of judgment is CONTEXTUALLY seen in all of them. WRATH is the focus.

Then we come to verse # 9..........
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our LORD Jesus Christ.

The Day of the Lord is about WRATH and JUDGMENT and God tells us that the church is NOT APPOINTED us wrath!

The day of the Lord will arrive like a thief in the night, which is not a welcome event for those who do not Know Christ.
Also, it brings God's wrath upon unbelievers, whereas Christians—children of the light/saved people—will experience full salvation at the rapture.

While waiting for final salvation, we as Christians ought to lead a righteous life. This involves proper respect for church leaders. The Lord has placed them in positions of authority and trust over the church. Church members ought to hold them in high regard because of the ministry they perform. Christians also have a responsibility to be at peace with one another (1 Thessalonians 5:12–13).

Good points, Major. One of the first questions I ask when studying any topic in relation to what God does is to seek out His purpose. Revelation is a REVELATION of Christ Jesus. We already have Him, so that Revelation is not for us. What purpose, then? It will be a Revelation to the Judeo and unbelieving nations and people. His wrath will be poured out upon His unbelieving chosen, AND the Gentile unbelievers alike. It is not for the Church. The wedding supper is our destiny in Christ:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is a command from Christ Himself to those who will listen and obey.

MM

 

[Major]

Good points, Major. One of the first questions I ask when studying any topic in relation to what God does is to seek out His purpose. Revelation is a REVELATION of Christ Jesus. We already have Him, so that Revelation is not for us. What purpose, then? It will be a Revelation to the Judeo and unbelieving nations and people. His wrath will be poured out upon His unbelieving chosen, AND the Gentile unbelievers alike. It is not for the Church. The wedding supper is our destiny in Christ:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is a command from Christ Himself to those who will listen and obey.

MM

Agree 100%.
God poured His entire wrath on His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, thus we (the church) are not appointed to God’s wrath (great tribulation). The church is in Jesus Christ thus righteous and saved by Jesus Christ from God’s (father’s) wrath.

 

[DavyP]

What about the other vials? Aer they not also filled with HIS wrath?

All the vials of Revelation 16 do represent God's wrath also, upon the beast and its kingdom for the tribulation time, but not His 'final' day of wrath, which is emphatic for the very last day of this present world, and is written even in the Old Testament Books of His prophets. Thus Apostles Paul and Peter writing about the "day of the Lord" was not an idea they started, it was already written in the prophets.

I use a KJV study Bible that lets me know anytime The New Testament Scripture is quoting from, or pulling from The Old Testament. And in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul is pulling from the prophets about that day of God's wrath upon the wicked. That's a big help because often in The New Testament not all the detail of a prophecy first written in the OT is given. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul is assuming they had already read the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord", and thus understood what he was talking about. That's why he said to them that he had no need to tell them of the "times and the seasons", for they already knew them.

 

[DavyP]

Id like to share some thoughts about this, if I may:

When Jesus was taken up from those who loved Him, and them being the only ones who could see Him, He was showering them with blessings and instruction. What did the angels say to the men standing there, looking up after He was taken p out of their site?

Acts 1:10-11

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Now, in Revelation, at His actual Second Coming, when His feet touch down on this earth, it is NOT in like manner as He had departed:

Rev 19:11-15

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What those two angels said about His departure and returning in like manner, that coming does not at all resemble the actual Second Coming we see in Revelation 19, so there must be two different 'comings'...one when His feet are not said to touch down on this earth when we are gathered up to Him, and the other when His feet DO touch down on Mt. Zion, and His raiment, vesture, and on a horse, which is not how He departed, etc. The contrast is striking enough to realize the purpose for the appearing of our Lord in the clouds, and the trump sounding for the dead, and the last trump for the living to be called up.

What a wonderful promise, especially in light of the PURPOSE for the Day of the Lord, which is for Israel, not the Church.

Just some interesting thoughts for pondering and sharing.

MM

Well, IF... you include the future prophecy in Zechariah 14 about His future coming on the "day of the Lord", then ACTS 1 fits perfectly, simply because in Zechariah 14 it is written that His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives and a very great valley will be formed there, and it says He brings all His saints with Him. Thus it was the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, per Acts 1, and it is also to that Mount of Olives where He is to return in the future, per Zechariah 14.

 

[DavyP]

Hi all,
My thoughts about the final act.
Now Revelations is a complicated book with lots of symbols and metaphors and is hard to understand.
As for myself I tend to be a literal person is why past the first few chapters, my head starts spinning.
I think we ALL may have a preconceived misunderstanding of the events to happen.
My thought is our focus on the division is very different. We know there are pre, mid, and post believers . When I read and thoughtfully ponder Revelations happenings, I look at these 2 events....the GREAT TRIBULATIONS which Jesus said have never been before. Mt. 24:21 Tribulations according to Rms. are enacted upon one who holds to something outside the norm. The TRIBULATIONS and PERSECUTIONS are aimed at this ppl.

We are to be a holy peculiar ppl, which sets us apart at the start. TRIBULATIONS comes upon " christians" ,has always done so down through the ages. We claim a higher Master to the Prince of this world. It will anger him so hotly that we will be the object of his anger at God.

Paul instructed throughout his epistles that to bring our patience up to par we would have tribulations. Rms 5:3. ( context 1-4 ) Now patience is a POWERFUL emotion bc it also promotes action. If you are patient for an object, person or event it MEANS YOU ENDURE, and by enduring ;WAIT ,for the end of that desire to be fulfilled !

My thought as I've stated above the " great tribulations won't be aimed at evil, but AT US FOLLOWERS AND BELIEVERS by the Prince of evil wickedness !
God's WRATH will NOT be aimed at his children but rather at evil, the devil and all its workers. There to me are the two events in Revelations, God thru John warns us of.

Christ's Revelation and His Olivet discourse actually go together. Revelation 6 about the Seals is in parallel to the order of events for the end that Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The main problem many brethren have in trying to understand Christ's Revelation is with trying to keep the order of events how John saw them and wrote them down. That is not always the order the events occur. Christ's Olivet discourse by the order of the Signs Jesus gave there reveals this. And that brings up another important point...

Jesus gave only 7 main Signs of the end leading up to His future return in His Olivet discourse. And they directly parallel the order given with the Seals in Revelation 6. So there's actually only 7 Signs, and what His Revelation is doing is breaking up just those 7 Signs into 21 details. The Seals are about just those 7 Signs, the Trumpets are just about those same 7 Signs, and the Vials also are just about those same 7 Signs. The final Sign He gave in His Olivet discourse is about the day of His future coming. This is why the final Sign of the day of His coming is shown on the 6th-7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

 

[Major]

All the vials of Revelation 16 do represent God's wrath also, upon the beast and its kingdom for the tribulation time, but not His 'final' day of wrath, which is emphatic for the very last day of this present world, and is written even in the Old Testament Books of His prophets. Thus Apostles Paul and Peter writing about the "day of the Lord" was not an idea they started, it was already written in the prophets.

I use a KJV study Bible that lets me know anytime The New Testament Scripture is quoting from, or pulling from The Old Testament. And in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul is pulling from the prophets about that day of God's wrath upon the wicked. That's a big help because often in The New Testament not all the detail of a prophecy first written in the OT is given. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul is assuming they had already read the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord", and thus understood what he was talking about. That's why he said to them that he had no need to tell them of the "times and the seasons", for they already knew them.

You are very correct Davy.

The Vials, the Seals and the Trumpets are ALL about the wrath of God. When we really dif into the Revelation we see that it is a REVEALING of the Old Test. Prophets and especially Daniel.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used often in the Old Testament in more Scriptures that I can remember or take time to look up but a few are found in.......
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, Ezek. 9;12-30 , 30:3; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5 and Daniel. and several times in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10).

The Old Testament passages dealing with the day of the Lord often convey a sense of imminence, nearness, and expectation:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near!” (Isaiah 13:6);
“For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3);
“Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand” (Joel 2:1);
“Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision” (Joel 3:14);
“Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is near” (Zephaniah 1:7).

This is because the Old Testament passages referring to the day of the Lord often speak of both a near and a far fulfillment, as does much of Old Testament prophecy. Some Old Testament passages that refer to the day of the Lord describe historical judgments that have already been fulfilled in some sense (Isaiah 13:6-22; Ezekiel 30:2-19; Joel 1:15, 3:14; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:14-18), while others refers to divine judgments that will take place toward the end of the age (Joel 2:30-32; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:1, 5).

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14).

The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 1 Thessalonians 5:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment hence the need for the Rapture.

 

[DavyP]

Thank you MM,
I will certainly look at his study.
Since I think literally, my mind can't conceive things like scorpions that sting for 5 months that come out of the ground.

I know Hollywood has visualized much in their apocalyptic movies which may explain why I can't correlate the vision John was given with things I KNOW to be true...........get it?

In any event, what I understand is our way to exhibit Christ is mostly literal behaviours.
I can see the need for knowledge of and understanding in Revelations.........but I ain't really expert in that area.

Thanks I will give it a looksie ❤

You really hit that on the nail, Hollywood serves deception on many things.

God doesn't create monsters. But He uses symbolic analogies a lot, and most often it's natural things of His creation, like the scorpion.

In Revelation 9, that Chapter is about events to occur on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe, and 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe periods. They involve deception by false ones.

The scorpion symbol is used for spiritually 'how' those false men attack the deceived. And it's a spiritual attack to deceive souls. God gave the scorpion as symbol for their 'method' of attack, comparing to how a 'real' scorpion attacks its prey. How a real scorpion does that isn't pretty, so He gave this analogy to get His point across about being deceived by those false ones.

A real scorpion stings its prey, making it numb. A scorpion has no stomach, no digestive system. So it then regurgitates an acidic like fluid into its victim, and the victim's insides turn to mush. Then the scorpion sucks up the mush as already digested food. Not pretty, but that's how God made a real scorpion in nature. And that's how He uses the scorpion as a symbol for how that locust army attacks the deceived. Their lies represents the acid that turns their insides (soul) to mush, causing spiritual death for the deceived.

The Book of Joel is actually the first place that speaks of those locusts as an army sent upon His people for the end. He is not meaning real locusts, but "a nation" and a strong people. God calls them His army He sends in Joel 2. That's the same locusts spoken of for the end in Revelation 9.

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing shows the release of Satan and his hosts army upon the earth. It is pointing to the start time of the "great tribulation". That Trumpet lasts through the Revelation 10 Chapter, and all the way up to the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe which signals Christ's coming.

 

[DavyP]

You are very correct Davy.

The Vials, the Seals and the Trumpets are ALL about the wrath of God. When we really dif into the Revelation we see that it is a REVEALING of the Old Test. Prophets and especially Daniel.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used often in the Old Testament in more Scriptures that I can remember or take time to look up but a few are found in.......
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, Ezek. 9;12-30 , 30:3; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5 and Daniel. and several times in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10).

The Old Testament passages dealing with the day of the Lord often convey a sense of imminence, nearness, and expectation:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near!” (Isaiah 13:6);
“For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3);
“Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand” (Joel 2:1);
“Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision” (Joel 3:14);
“Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is near” (Zephaniah 1:7).

This is because the Old Testament passages referring to the day of the Lord often speak of both a near and a far fulfillment, as does much of Old Testament prophecy. Some Old Testament passages that refer to the day of the Lord describe historical judgments that have already been fulfilled in some sense (Isaiah 13:6-22; Ezekiel 30:2-19; Joel 1:15, 3:14; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:14-18), while others refers to divine judgments that will take place toward the end of the age (Joel 2:30-32; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:1, 5).

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14).

The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 1 Thessalonians 5:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment hence the need for the Rapture.

I'm aware of that interpretation, but I don't agree with it, and I do believe in the idea of dual fulfillment of some prophecies. I see that interpretation mainly as a method that Preterism often uses to wrongly claim most of Revelation has already been fulfilled, when it has not.

For example, even the Jeremiah 46:10 verse pointing to the "day of the Lord" is suggesting that one is about the time of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, coming upon Jerusalem to destroy it. But how do we know that isn't just an 'ensample' for the "day of the Lord" on the last day of this world also? Afterall, Christ did use the Babylon symbol again in His Revelation, didn't He? Thusly, even though that Jeremiah 46:10 verse is announcing that "day of the Lord", I see that time of history as an "ensample" for the END. And that's how I interpret all... those descriptions in the OT prophets about that "day of the Lord" when it associates a point of past history.

Apostle Peter really nailed it, because he showed in 2 Peter 3:10 that man's works will be burned off this earth on that day, and that event never happened back in history.

Here's another example of how not understanding about the 'real' time of that "day of the Lord", which is for the very end of this world, can be wrongly interpreted.

In Zechariah 14, one of God's Old Testament prophets, God through him revealed Christ's coming on that "day of the Lord", to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. If that "day of the Lord" event is wrongly interpreted to be about events of Old Testament 'history', then that whole Zechariah 14 Chapter will be misunderstood as to the timing it is pointing to. And the information in that Zechariah 14 Chapter is plentiful that it is about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His saints and bringing them with Him there to that Mount of Olives, and beginning His future reign. Towards the end of that Chapter we are even told those left of the armies that came upon Jerusalem will be made to come worship The KING, The LORD of hosts from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles. We certainly know that never happened back in Old Testament history. So that use of "day of the Lord" in that Zechariah 14 Chapter definitely cannot be applied to past history. Yet that is exactly what some wrongly do.

 

[DavyP]

....

The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 1 Thessalonians 5:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment hence the need for the Rapture.

I feel the need to say something about that idea too.

In Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and says those who 'watch' will be blessed.

By that "as a thief", Lord Jesus was attaching the day of His future coming to the "day of the Lord" timing.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that 'as a thief' idea is actually what He was using to declare the day of His future coming to gather His Church. He even said that if the goodman of the house had watched, he would have known in what 'hour' the thief would come (Matthew 24:43; Luke 12:37-40).

Jesus is still... warning His faithful Church at the 6th Vial timing of Revelation 16. The next event is the battle of Armageddon and the 7th Vial of God's wrath poured out, revealing the day of Jesus' future coming.

So per The New Testament usage of that "day of the Lord" phrase, it is always... about the FINAL DAY of this present world with the event of Lord Jesus' coming "as a thief". And He did give us Signs of the END to be watching leading up to that specific day. We just cannot know which day nor hour that will be, but He did give us the Signs to know how close it is. For that reason per Scripture, I cannot believe in any doctrine that proposes He can come 'at any moment'. No, He will come by a specific order of events that He gave His faithful to be watching. And when He does appear, and finds His faithful are watching those Signs, He revealed those will be blessed (Luke 12:37).

 

[Major]

I feel the need to say something about that idea too.

In Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and says those who 'watch' will be blessed.

By that "as a thief", Lord Jesus was attaching the day of His future coming to the "day of the Lord" timing.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that 'as a thief' idea is actually what He was using to declare the day of His future coming to gather His Church. He even said that if the goodman of the house had watched, he would have known in what 'hour' the thief would come (Matthew 24:43; Luke 12:37-40).

Jesus is still... warning His faithful Church at the 6th Vial timing of Revelation 16. The next event is the battle of Armageddon and the 7th Vial of God's wrath poured out, revealing the day of Jesus' future coming.

So per The New Testament usage of that "day of the Lord" phrase, it is always... about the FINAL DAY of this present world with the event of Lord Jesus' coming "as a thief". And He did give us Signs of the END to be watching leading up to that specific day. We just cannot know which day nor hour that will be, but He did give us the Signs to know how close it is. For that reason per Scripture, I cannot believe in any doctrine that proposes He can come 'at any moment'. No, He will come by a specific order of events that He gave His faithful to be watching. And when He does appear, and finds His faithful are watching those Signs, He revealed those will be blessed (Luke 12:37).

You are correct in that we cannot day the day nor the hour. The Rapture will happen when we think not.

Also, AFTER the Rapture, it will then be exactly 7 years till Christ comes and THAT removes the idea of "Imminent".

Yes, He is coming by a specific order of events and the next event is the Rapture of the Church.

Now since you reject the Rapture then I am sorry my friend because we stand in disagreement, also based on the Scriptures.

Now as I have stated, I will not do a back and forth on this, as it will not be productive AND our rules do not aloow it. Keep reading and studying and if I can help please ask.

 

[Major]

I'm aware of that interpretation, but I don't agree with it, and I do believe in the idea of dual fulfillment of some prophecies. I see that interpretation mainly as a method that Preterism often uses to wrongly claim most of Revelation has already been fulfilled, when it has not.

For example, even the Jeremiah 46:10 verse pointing to the "day of the Lord" is suggesting that one is about the time of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, coming upon Jerusalem to destroy it. But how do we know that isn't just an 'ensample' for the "day of the Lord" on the last day of this world also? Afterall, Christ did use the Babylon symbol again in His Revelation, didn't He? Thusly, even though that Jeremiah 46:10 verse is announcing that "day of the Lord", I see that time of history as an "ensample" for the END. And that's how I interpret all... those descriptions in the OT prophets about that "day of the Lord" when it associates a point of past history.

Apostle Peter really nailed it, because he showed in 2 Peter 3:10 that man's works will be burned off this earth on that day, and that event never happened back in history.

Here's another example of how not understanding about the 'real' time of that "day of the Lord", which is for the very end of this world, can be wrongly interpreted.

In Zechariah 14, one of God's Old Testament prophets, God through him revealed Christ's coming on that "day of the Lord", to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. If that "day of the Lord" event is wrongly interpreted to be about events of Old Testament 'history', then that whole Zechariah 14 Chapter will be misunderstood as to the timing it is pointing to. And the information in that Zechariah 14 Chapter is plentiful that it is about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His saints and bringing them with Him there to that Mount of Olives, and beginning His future reign. Towards the end of that Chapter we are even told those left of the armies that came upon Jerusalem will be made to come worship The KING, The LORD of hosts from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles. We certainly know that never happened back in Old Testament history. So that use of "day of the Lord" in that Zechariah 14 Chapter definitely cannot be applied to past history. Yet that is exactly what some wrongly do.

There are many "Day of the Lords" in the Old Test. but not every usage of the phrase can be slotted into the last days—the locust plague in Joel 1 being a case in point. The Babylonian exile is another example and it does not refer to the "End Times"!

But Zech. 14 and Mal. 4:5 are eschatological. In fact, they both focus in on specific events in the future time of trouble.
Zechariah has Messiah coming in person and fighting for Israel, His feet even touching the Mount of Olives (14:1-4).
Mal. 4:5 promises the arrival of Elijah “before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord.” Hence, for Zechariah and Malachi, the Day of the Lord is a shortened period prior to and including the second coming.

Zephaniah’s use of the term Day of the Lord looks out to the time of the end. His book is saturated with the theme of God’s Day of wrath coming before New covenant blessing.

I am sorry my brother, but I do not agree with your interpretations and you are rejecting the Scriptures concerning the Rapture and instead are espousing the Postmillennial view and IMHO it is unacceptable as per the Scriptures.

I am going to leave it at that because I do not choose to debate and have the mods close the thread.

Thanks for your input and I will speak again with you on another topic I am sure.