Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Brother_Mike_V, Sep 7, 2017.
I will sign off for now, my lovely wife is calling me..... Will continue tomorrow...... Night guys.
Yup and He also told us to walk in Love.
Do you not think that Jesus in His confrontations with those He was telling the truth, that He wasn't acting in Love for them and their inacurate positions of theology?
Yep and yet He was not a member in a forum either.
So long Jim......
You leaving already?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Jesus as quoted in Mathew 5:17
The post modern church has sought with all the energy it can apply to abandon all aspects of spiritual responsibility. It is widely believed that Jesus abolished the law on the cross. HE didn't. That was not His plan or purpose.
There are 613 Laws mentioned in the Torah. Most of them are traditional, cultural, ceremonial and dietary. An observant Jew cannot eat a cheese burger. A Christian can. On the other hand, some laws are permanent and cannot be revoked.
Laws pertaining to sacrifice of animals do not apply any more for two reasons.
First, all Jewish sacrifices were to be conducted in the Temple. The Temple doesn't exist any more.
Second, Christ's death upon the cross FULFILLED the Law requiring sacrifice for sin. Guilt and sin offerings aren't observed for these reasons, however the ordinances for them may provide theological clues to the Gentiles as to God's view on the subject of sin and guilt.
For example, if a baby dies does it go to heaven? Some Christian groups wrongly say no. Others take advantage of parental grief and charge a donation fee to salve their hearts. The Law says a child that dies goes to paradise because it is without sin. Capacity for sin does not imply guilt. One is generally not condemned to prison for robbing a bank if you didn't do it. The principle of guilt for sin is the same. Babies are not capable of committing sin, therefore if they die they are without guilt. There are many such examples.
Traditional and cultural laws don't apply to gentiles with regard to the celebration of Jewish Holidays; Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot are High Holidays the Gentiles do not share. Hanukkah is another well known Jewish holiday that Gentiles don't observe. One Jewish tradition that has been corrupted by the church and which requires Christians to follow (on pain of eternal punishment) is the seder. Google seder. This is the Jewish passover meal, which Jesus was eager to celebrate with His disciples. Christians call it the Last Supper. It can be more accurately called the Last Seder. A seder is not a required celebration, yet some churches charge their members with observation of the Eucharist as a requirement of the faith. Church tradition links the eucharist to the seder, with a gentile spin on it to make it their own. Yet the seder is Jewish through and through. BTW: I recommend participation in this annual tradition for everyone. It is a very special time and quite enlightening for all involved.
Jewish Law does not provide for torture.
Look in the Bible. You will not find it. A painful death sentence may be carried out, but once done it is done. Excruciating extended agony is not sanctioned for the benefit of the community or because God demands it. HE does not! Nowhere in the Bible is torture condoned. Yet medieval practice of torture was adopted by the church. The myth of eternal torture was applied to make members subservient so as to avoid it. Jesus spoke often of the second death, NOT eternal torture. Dante wrote of eternal torture in his book the Divine Comedy and the subsection of the Inferno, but the Bible never mentions torture at all - on earth or in heaven. God kills, but takes no pleasure in it as mankind seems to do. Hell is a place of death, of eternal endings, NOT torture. The lake of fire burns that which enters it and then the thing is gone forever. The fire is eternal, but consumption in it is quick and irreversible. God does NOT sanction torture. That is His law.
What Law applies?
Everyone pretty much agrees that the 10 commandments is universal in its application. It's also called the moral law or Royal Law or eternal law. It did not end on the cross. Christians have the idea that once saved they can do any damn thing they want because they'll be forgiven. They may be forgiven, but not after a quick and painful judgment is exacted upon them. (1 Peter 4:17) Judgment for sinners is delayed in the hope that they will repent. Either way somebody gets judged.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
Either way you cut it, the Law requires everyone to obey a moral law if not Jewish traditions and ceremonies. There IS an eternal punishment for sin called the second death. There is no eternal torture because once a soul has been destroyed that's it.
Luke 16:14 is often used to justify church doctrine regarding hell, but is actually an allegory Jesus used to teach eternal principles. The story refers to the complicated Jewish idea of sheol, a place where the dead sleep (not the same as Purgatory). It's not the same as the hellenistic idea of hades, either. Both were modified by the church so as to generate fear and donations. According to Jewish tradition, it is possible for the sleeping dead to be disturbed, as for example by a demon that was summoned by a medium to bring up the spirit of a dead human. If the human spirit is not returned to its proper sleeping place by the demon who brought it up, then that dead human spirit - now awakened - can be exposed to various tortures of the eternal plane (which God never meant for it to endure). This is why the Bible forbids mediums and consultation with the dead or with demons.
I hope this helps.
MONEY. It's all about money. The Law has as a component of salvation and sanctification has been abandoned because subjects like responsibility and repentance tend to cut down on donations. It's all about putting butts in seats, not spiritual truth teaching or power.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted in Mathew 5:17
The Law works together with grace. The Law convicts of sin in the same way a bathroom mirror reveals a dirty face. We cannot see our dirty face without the mirror and we cannot appreciate our sin without the Law. The Law cannot cleanse sin any more than a mirror can clean one's face. We need soap and water for our faces and grace, in the form of the blood of Christ crucified, to cleanse us of sin. But that isn't the end of it. We are saved SO THAT we may live by the Law.
Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery and told her to "go and sin no more". HE didn't forgive her so that she could open a brothel. HE forgave her SO THAT she could live a sinless life in the future.
"Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes." - popular slogan, author unknown
A mistake is not the same as a sin. What is a sin? The ten commandments, or the Law of Moses, is a list of them. The Bible says that God will punish sin. Mistakes are NOT punishable. A child will not be punished by God for mistakenly falling off a bicycle when learning how to ride. A man will not be punished by God for mistakenly smashing his thumb with a hammer, although he will be punished if he deliberately takes God's name in vain. Mistakes are made during the course of living and are not an offense unto God. Sins are a deliberate offense against God. The Law tells us the difference between sins and mistakes. The Bible quotes Moses as saying IT IS POSSIBLE TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN. Jesus, as well as Moses, said it was an easy thing to do. The yoke is light and easy. The weight of sin will kill.
Forgiveness does not come to anyone unless they ask. According to the Law, one had to come forward and present a sacrifice for sin in order to receive forgiveness. Nothing has changed ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Men and women are STILL required to come forward and in humility and sincerity ask for forgiveness. The sacrifice has already been made by Christ upon the cross, but forgiveness must still be requested. The Law stands. Christ fulfilled the Law. It has NOT been abolished. In the same way, God expects those who've been forgiven to life by the Law. Grace and Law have been given so that men and women can know how and be enabled to do what is normally expected of God's creation.
Repentance and the Law are not taught in our churches because false shepherds fear a decline in donations. In doing so they deny God's demand of compliance with the Law SO THAT grace can be shed. Lawlessness does not couple with grace - ever. Since the truth is not being taught in churches, the Holy Spirit has abandoned them to their foolishness. People don't go to church to play games with fools. When they want to do that they go to Vegas.
The time to repent is Now. The time to begin to live by grace according to God's Law is now.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I may be wrong but I don't think we are all perfectly mature. We change daily and grow daily. I believe we will change every day for the rest of our lives until we finally face Jesus in Heaven for all eternity. I think we will develop, grow, change, mature, deepen our faith, deepen our understanding and walk every day in a new way until we finally arrive into the Kingdom.
The Kingdom is within you!
It's also said the "Kingdom of God" or "Kingdom Laws" is also how we are to operate once we have become "Born Again Spirit Filled Believers".
This would be developed as we grow.
True the Kingdom of God is Within but is not going to establish a victorious life in Christ alone.
As CoffeeDrinker was saying.
True the kingdom of God is in us and we are from Heaven and not this earth But only by Spirit can we walk in the streets of His Kingdom now and one day will fully reside their not only in Spirit but with our "New Glorified Bodies"
As the Kingdom of God is within us, this gives us Kingdom Rights and yet these rights just don't manifest results because one is born again.
As it is......Anything Inherited by His Promise or anything Accessed By or through Grace Must be Accessed By or Through Faith.
So without True Spiritual Growth, we gain very little even though it's already been done for us and given unto us.
This "Growth" begins at becoming born again and never stops.
None of us have reached the place where we don't have to learn and grow.
Being Mature in Christ does not say we no longer need to be led by Christ.