leaders in the Church

[forgiven61]

Ephesians 4:10-12
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

these are leaders it does not just stop with these offices . if your church has sunday and Wednesday services. if at all possible and you hold a position. you need to be there ..

the edifying of the body of Christ: is very important . much like raising children all the family helps from the oldest sibling to aunts uncles g mas gpas . use to the neighborhood you lived in watched out also.

church is a group effort dont expect the pastor to carry all the load. i see many wanting to help the pastor . they also can put extra weight on his shoulders​

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[kdm1984]

Ephesians 4:10-12​

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;​

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​

​

these are leaders it does not just stop with these offices . if your church has sunday and Wednesday services. if at all possible and you hold a position. you need to be there ..​

​

the edifying of the body of Christ: is very important . much like raising children all the family helps from the oldest sibling to aunts uncles g mas gpas . use to the neighborhood you lived in watched out also.​

​

church is a group effort dont expect the pastor to carry all the load. i see many wanting to help the pastor . they also can put extra weight on his shoulders​

​

​

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My church has Sunday services and a Bible Study time on Tuesday, IIRC (I used to attend it back in 2020-21 before I had my little one). I sometimes help clean the nursery. For women, some of the things we typically do are help with VBS, clean, cook, quilt, (I don't cook or quilt so I always clean) and maybe do women's study. The current church I'm in isn't large enough for a women-only study. I actually have tended not to like those in the past because most of them talked too much about feelings. There were a couple of retreats I went to though where the woman leader actually had some good theology as well. I wish that was more common among women in the church.

 

[forgiven61]

My church has Sunday services and a Bible Study time on Tuesday, IIRC (I used to attend it back in 2020-21 before I had my little one). I sometimes help clean the nursery. For women, some of the things we typically do are help with VBS, clean, cook, quilt, (I don't cook or quilt so I always clean) and maybe do women's study. The current church I'm in isn't large enough for a women-only study. I actually have tended not to like those in the past because most of them talked too much about feelings. There were a couple of retreats I went to though where the woman leader actually had some good theology as well. I wish that was more common among women in the church.

Bible study for men and women as in separate can be good. But a good group study is just important.. see my post on leadership a church we use to attend before i started the current church that the Lord allowed me to open sunday morning everyone showed up it was a board based church . all the leaders would show up. come sunday night and wed night Bible study they never darkened the door. one leader and his wife use to come on sunday nights and wed . then a church the wife and i visited sunday night.. not many there. the only leader was the deacon and his wife. .

its not fair to expect the pastor to be there and the other leaders not

 

[bobinfaith]

these are leaders it does not just stop with these offices . if your church has sunday and Wednesday services. if at all possible and you hold a position. you need to be there .. church is a group effort dont expect the pastor to carry all the load. i see many wanting to help the pastor . they also can put extra weight on his shoulders

​

Hello forgiven;

Thank you for your excellent thread, leaders in the Church

Not only did I need to be there, I always enjoy going to Church on weeknight Bible studies and Sunday school.

As kdm1984 was sharing, during a study there were / are times when a brother or sister needs to take a load off with challenges in their life or faith. We gave time for everyone to listen, stop and pray but the teacher or myself had to manage the time and bring everyone back to the heart of study.

This is why it's so important for a leader to be there. In the case of the study time, they can encourage the member by arranging a separate time to meet with them.

God bless you, Pastor, and your Church family.

 

[Lanolin]

Are all the leaders men?
I remember one of my bible ladies was called to be an elder on a church board once and she was the only female there, nobody would listen to her she felt she couldn't say anything and was always outvoted. I think that is common for most women not to be heard at all.

 

[Lanolin]

When I was in group bible study (ladies only) we had a nominal leader (female) and we also had in a mixed group a married couple as leaders.
In both groups the 'pastor' never came...I never understood how some churches only had ONE pastor for the whole flock when the flock was very large. I also didn't quite understand the difference between 'clergy and laity' some churches had this divide.

Some churches it seems do operate a bit like social clubs. I can understand how social clubs operate as I am in a garden club. We have AGMs and committees and rosters and everything, organise events, provide for visitors and guests etc. There's a president, a treasurer, a secretary, etc. These get voted or nominated every year, and everyone gets a turn at doing something.

But some churches seems to be run a bit like businesses. You are given a role and expected to do it until you don't want to do it anymore and have to find someone else. I don't know if you get paid, it seems like only pastors get paid or those with divinity degrees. Because most people aren't going to do it full time for nothing as they've got to look after their household too.

In a churches annual reports there is no listing of who's a prophet, an apostle, a teacher, a pastor, or an evangelist. Instead they seem to have all these other titles and roles. Anyway I'm wondering what role is there for people who have ordinary jobs. Say you're a fisherman, Jesus says ok follow me I'm going to make you fishers of men.

So if you're a secretary, do you give that up and become the church secretary?
What if you're retired?

 

[kdm1984]

Are all the leaders men?
I remember one of my bible ladies was called to be an elder on a church board once and she was the only female there, nobody would listen to her she felt she couldn't say anything and was always outvoted. I think that is common for most women not to be heard at all.

In the church, leaders do tend to be men, because of the following verse:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man" 1 Timothy 2:12

This verse is within the specific context of the church.

Most theologically conservative churches take it to mean women shouldn't be pastors/preachers over adult men within the church.

Some take it more broadly and think it means women can't even be national leaders, teach teenage boys, etc.

In the denomination I'm a member of (WELS Lutheran), we apply it relatively strictly. In fact, one of the differences between us and LCMS Lutheran (another fairly conservative body) is we don't even allow women to vote in church matters. LCMS views the office of the pastor different and thinks women can vote on church matters, whereas here in WELS we don't allow that.

I never really got much into church voting anyway, so I don't miss my lack of vote.

As far as secular matters, we're less constrictive there than, say, some of the patriarchal Calvinist churches that teach women shouldn't even have authority in secular spheres. I went to college, I vote, I work. WELS isn't against those things. Some of my Calvinist friends were though.

 

[Major]

Are all the leaders men?
I remember one of my bible ladies was called to be an elder on a church board once and she was the only female there, nobody would listen to her she felt she couldn't say anything and was always outvoted. I think that is common for most women not to be heard at all.

Funny!

Of all the women I know..........they are all heard, very well and very often.

 

[Major]

When I was in group bible study (ladies only) we had a nominal leader (female) and we also had in a mixed group a married couple as leaders.
In both groups the 'pastor' never came...I never understood how some churches only had ONE pastor for the whole flock when the flock was very large. I also didn't quite understand the difference between 'clergy and laity' some churches had this divide.

Some churches it seems do operate a bit like social clubs. I can understand how social clubs operate as I am in a garden club. We have AGMs and committees and rosters and everything, organise events, provide for visitors and guests etc. There's a president, a treasurer, a secretary, etc. These get voted or nominated every year, and everyone gets a turn at doing something.

But some churches seems to be run a bit like businesses. You are given a role and expected to do it until you don't want to do it anymore and have to find someone else. I don't know if you get paid, it seems like only pastors get paid or those with divinity degrees. Because most people aren't going to do it full time for nothing as they've got to look after their household too.

In a churches annual reports there is no listing of who's a prophet, an apostle, a teacher, a pastor, or an evangelist. Instead they seem to have all these other titles and roles. Anyway I'm wondering what role is there for people who have ordinary jobs. Say you're a fisherman, Jesus says ok follow me I'm going to make you fishers of men.

So if you're a secretary, do you give that up and become the church secretary?
What if you're retired?

My dear.........EVERY single church is a business in a way. The church does not operate for profit but it ...........
Pays a water bill
Pays a power bill
Pays taxes on employees
Has a payroll
Must have clean restrooms
The church does not sell a product, but it gives away real-estate

On a personal note........It seems to me that you actually know very little about churches and how they operate.

 

[Lanolin]

Oh ok we don't really have any Lutheran churches in NZ, at least, I've never seen one. Lots of Wesleyan ones though (usually called methodist) and presybeterians. We also have Brethren churches, which are probably the most conservative in that some are called 'closed brethren' meaning only men. There are no 'Sister' churches. The women in these churches have no say in anything and mostly relegated to cooking and cleaning for the men and tend to be taken advantage of. They don't get paid. Some willingly enter into that life but most esp those who escape from it tell of sexual abuse.

 

[Lanolin]

The Exclusive Brethren famously don't vote in elections BUT it was found out they paid a great deal of money to conservative parties to endorse their campaigns.

So pretty much the same thing.

NZ was one of the first nations to win suffrage for women, and it was meant to be initially appealing to Christian voters because they were trying to prohibit alcohol, as men would come home drunk and beat up their wives.

 

[bobinfaith]

Are all the leaders men? I remember one of my bible ladies was called to be an elder on a church board once and she was the only female there, nobody would listen to her she felt she couldn't say anything and was always outvoted. I think that is common for most women not to be heard at all.

When I was in group bible study (ladies only) we had a nominal leader (female) and we also had in a mixed group a married couple as leaders.
In both groups the 'pastor' never came...I never understood how some churches only had ONE pastor for the whole flock when the flock was very large. I also didn't quite understand the difference between 'clergy and laity' some churches had this divide. Some churches it seems do operate a bit like social clubs. I can understand how social clubs operate as I am in a garden club. We have AGMs and committees and rosters and everything, organise events, provide for visitors and guests etc. There's a president, a treasurer, a secretary, etc. These get voted or nominated every year, and everyone gets a turn at doing something. But some churches seems to be run a bit like businesses. You are given a role and expected to do it until you don't want to do it anymore and have to find someone else. I don't know if you get paid, it seems like only pastors get paid or those with divinity degrees. Because most people aren't going to do it full time for nothing as they've got to look after their household too. In a churches annual reports there is no listing of who's a prophet, an apostle, a teacher, a pastor, or an evangelist. Instead they seem to have all these other titles and roles. Anyway I'm wondering what role is there for people who have ordinary jobs. Say you're a fisherman, Jesus says ok follow me I'm going to make you fishers of men. So if you're a secretary, do you give that up and become the church secretary?
What if you're retired?

Hello Lanolin;

If you Click to expand you'll see what I blue-lighted and respond. First, are all the leaders men? No. God had His anointing roles for many of the women in the Old and New Testaments.

The Churches that I have witnessed have executive boards, pulpit committees, administration and finance are all bonafide ministries backed by Scripture. Please see Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12:28.

The women who serve in leadership ministries seek God's purpose and vision to be effective in the growth of operations in His Church.

I have also witnessed churches that operate like a "social club or business" and unfortunately they delve deep in this mindset of "playing church" that they become a norm, instead of God's vision. For this reason I don't believe all Churches are called by God to plant.

During the 1980s and 1990s I worked in the accounting field and there were increasing women supervisors and managers. But when I interviewed and worked for them I didn't see a woman, but my employer.

As a pastor I was bio-vocational in the early years (worked both the Pastorate and my full time job.) When the Church's offerings increased I was given a small salary. Later my salary grew as well as others on staff. Soon I retired from my accounting career and my Church salary was much less while I served full time as a pastor.

Here is where my faith comes in. God provided His provisions, not just the salary, but my relationship in my marriage, people, my skills, abilities, talents and spiritual gifts, all given by God alone.

But the problems grew in the Church (people) and my failures were visible, despite His blessings, but He has always been faithful and gotten me past everything.

I don't know about the Church community in New Zealand but should God call Hazel and me there to serve in the Church she and I would go in a minute. I still want to explore Stewart Island or Rakiura.

God bless you, sister.

 

[Siloam]

Of course, church leadership needs to be in church!

... But the thing is, so does the congregation, or what is the point?

Allow me a digression (maybe off point, but related):

I have just started a look into some of the great revivals in US history. My specific question is not so much the preachers or their message, but what can be seen as the result?

Did these great revivals result in s greater (more common) display of living for Christ?
Did these great revivals result in a Christian community that shares Christ with others?

Or was it more of a social phenomena?
Do we need a group revival, or do we need individual revivals that cause each of us to examine our heart? Can we work together and have disagreements become chances to view Him from a different angle, listening to our brothers and examining the scriuptures as they see them, or must we always concentrate on our position being deemed THE right view?

 

[forgiven61]

Of course, church leadership needs to be in church!

... But the thing is, so does the congregation, or what is the point?

Allow me a digression (maybe off point, but related):

I have just started a look into some of the great revivals in US history. My specific question is not so much the preachers or their message, but what can be seen as the result?

Did these great revivals result in s greater (more common) display of living for Christ?
Did these great revivals result in a Christian community that shares Christ with others?

Or was it more of a social phenomena?
Do we need a group revival, or do we need individual revivals that cause each of us to examine our heart? Can we work together and have disagreements become chances to view Him from a different angle, listening to our brothers and examining the scriuptures as they see them, or must we always concentrate on our position being deemed THE right view?

there should be no strong emphasis on the preacher him self . its the message that is important provided its backed by the word of God. the preacher has his Job and those in the congregation has there's.
since covid church attendance has dropped . even worse in my area of southeast mo.. we suffer from lack of enough pastors. seems no one has took the call.

i dont have all the answers but the things i have seen is the other leaders will show up to Church on Sunday morning.. yet remain at home Sunday night Sunday morning. . you vote a pastor in expect him to be there when the doors are open.


but that dont seem to apply to any of the others.. its not so much going to church. but what you get out of the service

that we henceforth be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and their cunning and craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;.

we get fuel for the journey outside the Church doors is the real work..

examining the scriuptures as they see them, or must we always concentrate on our position being deemed THE right view?

there is some this mainly when it comes to church doctrine. {Baptist are the worst -----) when the church i pastor was studying the book of REV, we examined all the views . we discussed them in my opening statement its was not about me . its about Him back in the old days of weeks of revivals. tent rev.. brush harbor . they come from miles there was no central heat or air or even comfortable padded pews.

do we hunger and thirst like we should

 

[Siloam]

there should be no strong emphasis on the preacher him self . its the message that is important provided its backed by the word of God. the preacher has his Job and those in the congregation has there's.
since covid church attendance has dropped . even worse in my area of southeast mo.. we suffer from lack of enough pastors. seems no one has took the call.

i dont have all the answers but the things i have seen is the other leaders will show up to Church on Sunday morning.. yet remain at home Sunday night Sunday morning. . you vote a pastor in expect him to be there when the doors are open.


but that dont seem to apply to any of the others.. its not so much going to church. but what you get out of the service

that we henceforth be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and their cunning and craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;.

we get fuel for the journey outside the Church doors is the real work..



there is some this mainly when it comes to church doctrine. {Baptist are the worst -----) when the church i pastor was studying the book of REV, we examined all the views . we discussed them in my opening statement its was not about me . its about Him back in the old days of weeks of revivals. tent rev.. brush harbor . they come from miles there was no central heat or air or even comfortable padded pews.

do we hunger and thirst like we should

I have noticed in myself a growing tendency as I age to write in non-sequiturs. I know why I make weird connections but I seem to forget that others have no view into my thoughts. That kind of happened here.

....
However, to let you see where I was coming from,

One of the churches I was attending a few years ago was starting a new church in another town in the county. While I think that is great, I did notice that during some times when our congregation was going through some growing pains, the primary leadership was spending a great deal of time helping the new church get going. That is to be expected, but our leadership was supplying a member of our pastoral staff to fill their pulpit while they looked for pastor of their own.


Even before this, I noticed a tendacy for our pastor to guest preach at other congregations. Again, this is good and helps avoid insular doctrine.

Our congregation did suffer from the primary focus of our ministers somewhere else than our church.

 

[bobinfaith]

there is some this mainly when it comes to church doctrine. {Baptist are the worst -----) when the church i pastor was studying the book of REV, we examined all the views . we discussed them in my opening statement its was not about me. its about Him back in the old days of weeks of revivals. tent rev.. brush harbor . they come from miles there was no central heat or air or even comfortable padded pews. do we hunger and thirst like we should

I have noticed in myself a growing tendency as I age to write in non-sequiturs. I know why I make weird connections but I seem to forget that others have no view into my thoughts. That kind of happened here. ...However, to let you see where I was coming from, One of the churches I was attending a few years ago was starting a new church in another town in the county. While I think that is great, I did notice that during some times when our congregation was going through some growing pains, the primary leadership was spending a great deal of time helping the new church get going. That is to be expected, but our leadership was supplying a member of our pastoral staff to fill their pulpit while they looked for pastor of their own. Even before this, I noticed a tendacy for our pastor to guest preach at other congregations. Again, this is good and helps avoid insular doctrine. Our congregation did suffer from the primary focus of our ministers somewhere else than our church.

Hello forgiven;

I know you and have heard your testimony as a pastor in Missouri so I get what you're saying. I have to say Baptists are not the worst leaders; I'm a Southern Baptist, or Baptist Pastor, and in my spirit confess I do fall short, but I don't feel I'm the worst. I've made every effort to be in attendance. Many times emotions were high and I got the blame. But at the end of the day I loved being there with my Church family and the blessings I receive outweigh the curses.

There is no doctrine that is perfect but a continuous work in progress.

Many leaders who come from various denominations all fall short in the eyes of God. The worst are the leaders who are not "called by God" but proclaim themself "led" to be a leader, love to be up front and spew Scriptures in gross error.

The worst of leaders in the Church are not effective in time management, of being inconsistently visible in the Church. They fall short in our teaching of the 66 books and always avoid certain books because it's too hard to teach. They are unprepared to deliver the sermon or re-use a past sermon too often out of laziness. Probably the most disappointing are the leaders who don't prayerfully ask God to build up their interpersonal people skills for ministering to the flock.

Again, the worst are the leaders who are not called by God but proclaim themself a leader, love to be up front and spew Scriptures in gross error.

Living in this San Francisco Bay Area of 7 million I've put in a lot of miles. There were times I had to sharply rebuke a minister. One leader announced, "ALL gods are the same god as long as we worship this god and get along with everyone." When I addressed him, he got defensive by losing his temper and wanted to strike me. By God's covering he didn't lay a hand on me.

Hello Siloam;

Many called pastors are theologically sound, are effective preachers and teachers, and have a shepherd's heart for leading the sheep. Unfortunately they didn't learn time and organizational management. So what you experienced in your Church is not uncommon in many Churches. When we hear from a leader, "I'm sorry I didn't get back to you, or I wasn't able to prepare who will lead in my absence, or it's been so busy in my ministry." These are red flags and the leader needs to delegate to his staff, or Church family and say, "help!"

I feel as seasoned disciples for Christ and leaders in our Churches, we seem to look for the perfect Church and doctrine. It's not going to happen. Only God in His sovereign perfection knows ALL His Churches and will do a good work while searching the hearts of His called leaders and guide each one.

What are your thoughts? Let's discuss this.

God bless you, brothers.

 

[Major]

Hello forgiven;

I know you and have heard your testimony as a pastor in Missouri so I get what you're saying. I have to say Baptists are not the worst leaders; I'm a Southern Baptist, or Baptist Pastor, and in my spirit confess I do fall short, but I don't feel I'm the worst. I've made every effort to be in attendance. Many times emotions were high and I got the blame. But at the end of the day I loved being there with my Church family and the blessings I receive outweigh the curses.

There is no doctrine that is perfect but a continuous work in progress.

Many leaders who come from various denominations all fall short in the eyes of God. The worst are the leaders who are not "called by God" but proclaim themself "led" to be a leader, love to be up front and spew Scriptures in gross error.

The worst of leaders in the Church are not effective in time management, of being inconsistently visible in the Church. They fall short in our teaching of the 66 books and always avoid certain books because it's too hard to teach. They are unprepared to deliver the sermon or re-use a past sermon too often out of laziness. Probably the most disappointing are the leaders who don't prayerfully ask God to build up their interpersonal people skills for ministering to the flock.

Again, the worst are the leaders who are not called by God but proclaim themself a leader, love to be up front and spew Scriptures in gross error.

Living in this San Francisco Bay Area of 7 million I've put in a lot of miles. There were times I had to sharply rebuke a minister. One leader announced, "ALL gods are the same god as long as we worship this god and get along with everyone." When I addressed him, he got defensive by losing his temper and wanted to strike me. By God's covering he didn't lay a hand on me.

Hello Siloam;

Many called pastors are theologically sound, are effective preachers and teachers, and have a shepherd's heart for leading the sheep. Unfortunately they didn't learn time and organizational management. So what you experienced in your Church is not uncommon in many Churches. When we hear from a leader, "I'm sorry I didn't get back to you, or I wasn't able to prepare who will lead in my absence, or it's been so busy in my ministry." These are red flags and the leader needs to delegate to his staff, or Church family and say, "help!"

I feel as seasoned disciples for Christ and leaders in our Churches, we seem to look for the perfect Church and doctrine. It's not going to happen. Only God in His sovereign perfection knows ALL His Churches and will do a good work while searching the hearts of His called leaders and guide each one.

What are your thoughts? Let's discuss this.

God bless you, brothers.

Your comment of...........
"Again, the worst are the leaders who are not called by God but proclaim themself a leader, love to be up front and spew Scriptures in gross error." is absolutely the correct answer!

Many a Man after man has thought that leading a church after having read the Bible and felt what he thought was a calling from God, later realized that it was just indigestion, has ruined the lives of many people from teaching out FEELINGS instead of knowledge!

 

[Major]

I have noticed in myself a growing tendency as I age to write in non-sequiturs. I know why I make weird connections but I seem to forget that others have no view into my thoughts. That kind of happened here.

....
However, to let you see where I was coming from,

One of the churches I was attending a few years ago was starting a new church in another town in the county. While I think that is great, I did notice that during some times when our congregation was going through some growing pains, the primary leadership was spending a great deal of time helping the new church get going. That is to be expected, but our leadership was supplying a member of our pastoral staff to fill their pulpit while they looked for pastor of their own.


Even before this, I noticed a tendacy for our pastor to guest preach at other congregations. Again, this is good and helps avoid insular doctrine.

Our congregation did suffer from the primary focus of our ministers somewhere else than our church.

Hello again brother.

Always a blessing to speak to you. I hear what you are saying and living here in central Florida, I can say that we have not had that problem.

We as a church in the past have started 3 other churches. However, it was done when we had a man who was called, then educated in the ministry and we always did it where the church started was at least 50 miles away. I did in fact do the Commissioning of those churches when they opened, but we did it on a Sunday Evening so that I did not miss our own church services.

For sure there is a shortage of educated Pastors.

It is not a problem with empty pulpits as much as it is a problem with EMPTY Preachers.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello again brother. Always a blessing to speak to you. I hear what you are saying and living here in central Florida, I can say that we have not had that problem. We as a church in the past have started 3 other churches. However, it was done when we had a man who was called, then educated in the ministry and we always did it where the church started was at least 50 miles away. I did in fact do the Commissioning of those churches when they opened, but we did it on a Sunday Evening so that I did not miss our own church services. For sure there is a shortage of educated Pastors. It is not a problem with empty pulpits as much as it is a problem with EMPTY Preachers.

Hello Major;

Thank you, brother. This reminds me of the days I was growing up in the Church. It was structured and highly respected so when I was a boy and if I couldn't sit still during service all my Dad had to do was look at me. Enough said. lol!

My family felt assured each week that the Church was structured. It was unusual to see the Pastor or other leaders leave after a short time. The Church did have it's people problems, for example, my Mom got into a verbal exchange but with respect to the Pastor, but that was my Mom. I don't know what happened and I didn't dare ask Mom but it got resolved.

As a 17 year old teen I was playing in the praise team each week and didn't think about what was going on behind closed doors. When the Church planted a second Church some of us were asked to help lead the praise and worship. It was fun but it always got taken care of by the leaders.

God bless you, Pastor, and your entire family.

 

[forgiven61]

Baptists are not the worst leaders;

let me clarify since i am not a writer i speak that posted wrong iam talking in general as in cong members are bad about getting bogged down in doctrine issues . i have nothing against southern Baptist in fact they was having annual meeting of or for leaders. i subscribe to some of there online material .
the genral baptist is holding a summit also. as per evangelism i liked the southern Baptist them compared to the gen Baptist. dont take that to heart about baptist .
i have dealt with confused baptist Church members from o my goodness the 13th commandment though shalt not mention foot washing from this pulpit your a God called preacher but were looking for someone more laid back.. to power control of the Church'. all these examples they had no pastor . well the one on foot washing i was the pastor..

the General Baptist are good folks but there is not much encouragement from headquarters to the local church. i have talked to them till i am blue in face.

in closing A pastor is only as good as his congregation the congregation is only as good as its pastor

i realize my statement which was not phrased right has wrinkled eye brows .

God gave us leaders for edifying the body of Christ . so that were not tossed about for every wind of doctrine