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How Can This Prophecy Happen?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Enow, Oct 8, 2012.

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  1. 1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    How can this prophecy happen? Is this the warning below of how it can occur?

    2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    I would like to know how believers interpret this prophecy and this warning, because preaching to receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign is the same thing as preaching another Jesus, spirit, and gospel to receive as if you had not received Him yet. Is it not utter hypocrisey to receive the Holy Spirit again when He is already within you as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ?

    If you do not believe this is applicable towards receiving the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign, then what is? What falling away from the faith is there that is happening in the churches in these latter days that fits the prophecy and the warning above?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    What further reproofs are there that one cannot receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign?

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


    This is the testimony that all believers had that drink of the one Spirit. There is no other drink.
    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Jesus promised that after we had been saved, there will be no more need for another filling.

    Colossians 2: 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    Paul says for all believers in regards to the faith that they are complete in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Paul says there is only one hope of our calling and thus one baptism with the Holy Spirit that comes by faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other invitation to heed to move away from your resting place in Jesus Christ.

    It is the fact that one feels the spirit coming over them when the real Holy Spirit is in us is proof it is not of God.

    1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    Doesn't that testimony produced by the supernatural phenomenon make it as though the Father did not give us the Holy Spirit the first time? What other point would Jesus say this below for?

    Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
    May God help you to see that just by asking to receive the Holy Spirit again is the same thing as if making it look as though the Father did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time when you were saved by coming to and believing in Jesus Christ. It's time to repent and return to our first love, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom is called the Bridegroom, to keep us from being seduced by spirits.
     
  2. JACK: The word used in I Tim. 4:1 that is rendered "DEPART from the faith" is the Greek word APOSTHSONTAI. It begins with the proposition APO which means to come away from the edge of something. It is contrasted with the proposition EK which means to "come out" something. Hence, these people are "stepping away" from the truth faith, not stepping "out of" the true faith.
    The passage in 2 Cor. 11:1 I don't believe is a prophecy. Paul is defending his apostleship and is contrasting himself against a false apostle who had been troubling the church. He is telling the believers at Corinth that he is the true apostle because of the consistency of his message. This intruder was ostensibly preaching the same Jesus whom Paul had preached. But if he had, the spirit would have remained the same, the gospel would have been the same, and Paul is pointing out that He preached one Jesus, one gospel, and one Spirit while this rival preached a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit. Hence, Paul was a genuine apostle though he didn't use the most skilled articulation. It is the content, not the style, that identifies the giver of truth. In Galatians chapter one, he said even if an angel came down from heaven and preached any other gospel to you, don't listen to him.
     
    Major likes this.
  3. Still. they both mean that they were of faith and now they were not of faith.

    I do not see how you can read that as Paul endorsing himself as an apostle in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4. I see your point in Galatians 1st chapter, but not in that one. In 2 Corinthians 11:1-4, Paul was on topic about the deviation from what he had preached, and that was by preaching another Jesus, spirit, and gospel, as in giving another invitation to receive that which they had not received before by disguising it as being of christianity, but by adding to what Paul had preached before, thus the simplicity of the gospel just got more complicated.

    The reproofs by the scripture has been given as to why there can be no receiving the Holy Spirit again after a sign.

    Here's more.

    Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    See how that can be applied to 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 about presenting them as a chaste virgin to Christ?

    Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?.....

    Dare any believer think they can invoke the baptism with the Holy Spirit when Jesus had given Him to us by promise?

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    If anyone doubts how one had received the promise or when, then read this below:

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    So let's face it: errant believers are preaching another Holy Spirit to receive again after a sign, thus departing from the faith in Jesus Christ and committing spiritual fornication in chasing after other "gods" to receive them again and again and again.

    That is why all invitations points to the Son and none to the Holy Spirit so that we can rest in Jesus when we came to and believed in the Son and not be lured away from the Bridegroom by seducing spirits with their signs and wonders.
     
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  5. Hi Enow,

    If we ask God to fill us with the Holy Spirit, He, as our heavenly Father, will send His Spirit to do His will in our lives (Luke 11:9). We have nothing to fear if we genuinely ask God for His Holy Spirit on more than one occasion. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conversion.

    What Paul was teaching to Timothy and the Corinthian church was that they need to be careful not to listen to other spirits, other deceptive teachings. The author of Hebrews says the same thing:
    Heb 6:4

    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    Heb 6:5
    and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6
    and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Himto an open shame.
    It is possible for a Christian to be decieved by false spirits. These passages are not warnings about asking God for a double filling of the Holy Spirit. Surely it is an honourable thing to request God for His Spirit, it show the desire to be with God. The trouble comes when we start to look for other spirits, disguised as the Holy Spirit.
     
    Major likes this.
  6. 1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    It has happened already. He is speaking of the "New Age" belief system. Which has spread throughout the once Christian world and is very literally the "doctrine of devils". All New Age doctrine is the results of a few people playing with Ouija boards (or other divining methods) and claiming that they were instructed by spirits to teach a "new truth". They have incorporated much Christian terminology and even have their own version of Jesus, makes it much easier to draw in the ignorant. That is the religion that the UN is pushing, and they don't take "no" for an answer.

    Here is a set of articles on the New Age beliefs
    http://philologos.org/__eb-trs/
     
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  8. Then sealed means filled and thus saved, therefore no more need for a filling. To ask the Father again is to make it look as though He had given you a serpent instead of an egg or a stone instead of a bread the first time. That was why Jesus said that. Once you have been given the Spirit at your salvation, our eyes are on the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father and the Holy Spirit in us is still pointing us to the Son to avoid seducing spirits and false prophets.

    Like the holy laughter movement? Chaos and confusion? And yet when it occurs, believers are led to seek that again, and so they call upon the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them "again", and the event happens again. How is this not the work of seducing spirits? And why did it happen when calling on the Holy Spirit in following the initial event? Because they stepped outside the will of God the Father in how we are to relate to Him through the Son, the Bridegroom. That event and others like it is why God permit a strong delusion for believing the lie that they can receive that sanctification apart from their salvation again and again and again.

    Since the sanctification of the Spirit occurred at our salvation, then the receiving of the Spirit can not occur at any other time, otherwise it would be the same as if relaying the foundation in being saved again and again and again.

    The trouble starts when you fail to recognize that He is in you and is with you always, leaving yourselves wide open to supernatural sensations in the flesh of receiving another spirit. Any departure from the faith may result in God permitting a strong delusion to occur. If you are aware of spirits disguising as the Holy Spirit, then this line of discernment given proves that feeling anything coming over us after a sign is not the Holy Spirit "again" 1 John 4:1-7.
     
  9. The fact that Satan has his own kind of supernatural tongues does point to a need to discern the tongues. Contenders will argue that Satan copycats God's gifts, but they are forgetting that God's gift of tonges came after Satan has been manifesting his supernatural tongues in the world before Christ had come.

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    World's religions including Islam has this supernatural tongue: occults and cults in christianity has this tongue that comes with no interpretation. So how can these sinners that be in the world come out of the world and away from these spirits if God's gift of tongues is just gibberish as coming with no interpretation like Satan's supernatural tongues are? Here's how:

    By heeding that invitation in having that reconciled relationship with God through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom, and thereby shunning vain and profane babblings in order to abstain from all appearances of evil spirits.
     
  10. Hi Enow, I think I understand your viewpoint. You feel that it brings disgrace to God if we ask Him to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit - am I right in my assumption?

    The infilling of the Holy Spirit is not a once off event - it is a continual event. Let me explain my reasoning. When we are saved we are sealed into the church through the Holy Spirit - who remains with us until we go to be with Jesus or we turn away and rebel against God (if this is possible - I dont want to discuss once saved always saved theology in this thread for sake of clarity). The Holy Spirit works through us giving us gifts as He sees fit (1 Cor). These gifts may not always be evident at salvation but the Holy Spirit gives them to us when He is ready and when we are ready to use them for the benefit of the church. The Holy Spirit remains with us as counselor, teacher etc. Nowhere does scripture say that we cannot ask the Holy Spirit to fill our lives, more than once. Personally I ask the Holy Spirit (remember He is fully God as well) to fill me and guide me every day - is this wrong, if so I have never been let down by the Holy Spirit.

    The only warnings in scripture concerning the Holy Spirit is when people deliberately assign the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan and this is a severe warning. Yes there are false signs out in the world today and yes they have infiltrated the church, but not all signs are false. Those who believe in the ceasation of the gifts would be well advised to discern correctly and get first hand info before making harsh statements regarding some of the things which happen in churches.

    You have made a few practical examples of possible false imitation gifts, but be careful the enemy can copy what is true to make people disbelieve. When discerning 'gifts' especially the supernatural ones, always look to see if genuine love is involved or is it pride. Is God glorified? Is the church built up?
     

  11. You asked....
    "How can this prophecy happen? "

    Paul is IMO,warning that there will be heretical teachers who will mislead a great number of people.

    These false religionists will lead in a departure from the faith. Paul also wrote in 2 Thess. 2 of the apostasy to come.
    Actuaaly this apostasy has been in the church for a long time and will not be new by the end of the age. It has grown and will continue to do so. When the church of Christ is Raptured, there will be left behind a totally apostate organized church.
     
  12. The phrase later times refers not to some coming event but to the sweep of time from Christ's ascension to his future return. It covers everything in between, from Paul and the early church, to Luther and the Reformation, to Wesley and the Great Awakening, to us. These are the "later times," the last days. This great epoch of the church is the final stage of human history before the triumphal return of Jesus Christ.
    These words from Paul are just as relevant to our churches as they were for those in the first century. They will continue to be valid for believers in the future last days. The troubles which Paul describes have been happening throughout history to the present time, at other times with guerrilla tactics and scattered damage, often with frontal assaults and great devastation to the church.
    Paul predicted that some will abandon the faith. Apostasy has been around as long as human history. Paul dealt with it in his own day (1 Tim. 1:19; 2 Tim. 2:17-18), and the casualty list is high in our time. Even so, the church will triumph.

    Holman New Testament Commentary - Holman New Testament Commentary – I & II Thessalonians, I & II Timothy, Titus, Philemon.
     
  13. More like a false witness which can defile a believer. We are led by the Holy Spirit in us to do what the Holy Spirit in us is sent to do: to testify of the Son in seeking His glory: John 15:26-27 as He will not speak of Himself ( John 16:13) and thus will not lead believers to speak of the Holy Spirit to give glory to the Holy Spirit. That is why the only way to honour the Father is by honouring the Son Whom the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do in the worship place ( John 5:22-23) that is the judgment hanging over every believer and church because God the Father is glorified straightway through the Son ONLY: John 13:31-32. That is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship: Philippians 2:5-11 and in songs Colossians 3:16-17 and even in fellowship: 1 Corinthians 2:2. Jesus wasn't kidding about how we come to God in getting to know Him: John 14:6-7.

    Yes: I have no doubt that what believers feel is real, but they were warned not to believe every spirit.

    How is it that everytime a believer referenced scripture about asking the Father for the Holy Spirit, that is not what they are doing? You just admitted to asking the Holy Spirit directly as if He can move on His own accord. There is no scripture justifying that practise, but there are scripture reproving it as we are not to go around Jesus ( John 10:1) and those that do will follow a voice of a stranger ( John 10:2-5) which happens to be tongues that comes with no interpretation. This is why Jesus emphasized Himself as the door: John 10:7-9 and that anyone coming inbetween us and the Son is a thief which is the spirit of the antichrist. That means the Holy Spirit is not a GO TO Person of the Triune God. He is not a Mediator ( 1 Timothy 2:5) nor does He answers our prayers since the whole point of answered prayers is for the Father to be glorified in the Son as the Son is answering the prayers: John 14:13-14

    Praying TO the Holy Spirit is not found anywhere in the Bible. That would null and void the whole point of Jesus being our only Mediator. This would void the whole point of answered prayers if one can pray to the Holy Spirit and believe that Person of the Triune God will answer prayers, thus diverting glory from the Father in the Son.

    If you consdier those that seek after familiar spirits ( Isaiah 8:19) and American Indians dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come by whom they experience drunkenness in its presence, new age channelers with their spirit guides, American Indians with their animal spirit guides, and all other invitations to spirits in the world is why God did not give an invitation to come to Himself by way of the Spirit but by way of the Son so that He can reconcile the world to a personal relationship with God through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The is why His warnings and the Holy Spirit in us is still pointing us to the Son, the Bridegroom, to avoid false spirits as well as false prophets.

    The Son, Jesus Christ, is the only way for these sinners to repent in coming to God the Father so that is why the way is narrow and the warning is given to strive ye to enter through the straight gate: Luke 13:24-30 because false prophets had come in, broadening the way in the worship place by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son by which many movement of the "spirit" that sinners in the world are losing themselves in outside of the church. The fact that the "holy laughter" movement is ecumenical in nature is why it is a fruit of the false prophet: the "lump" from including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son: Matthew 7:13-17.

    The Son, Jesus Christ, is our first love, the Bridegroom. There is a need for sinners in the world to depart from their practises and their "familiar" spirits in cning to God through Jesus Christ just as there is a need for wayward believers to return to their first love to be witnesses of the Son as led by the Holy Spirit within them into doing in seeking the glory of the Son, and thereby the Father's as well. That spotlight will always be on the Son in the worship place, prayer, and in our walk with Him because He is the Bridegroom for the bride to be relating personally with God with.

    All I can ask is that you discern the tongues because Satan's supernatural tongues was in the world before the gospel of Jesus Christ had come ( Isaiah 8:19) and thus before God's gift of tongues of other men's lips which came on the day of Pentecost, and afterwards. That means God's gift of tongues cannot come without interpretation to be used as a prayer language for that would make God copycatting Satan's tongues, not the other way around.

    Since we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil: how can believers do that if God imitates Satan's supernatural tongues which is vain and profane babblings that was in the world before the day of Pentecost?

    So not only is there just cause to discern the tongues that comes with no interpretation, but just cause for discerning the spirits coming over believers as they have been warned not to believe every spirit.

    That means believers can be deceived if they do not pay attention to what those spirits are doing: leading them to focus on them in the worship place in seeking after them to receive again and again after a sign in the flesh.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    This is the promise for all those that come to and believe in Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus Christ is our resting place because there is no other invitation to heed. We are led by the Spirit of God in us to keep our eyes on the Son in following our Good Shepherd and relate to God the Father through our first love, the Bridegroom, so as to avoid committing spiritual fornication by seducing spirits that would have our attention, focus, and devotion elsewhere.
     
  14. And yet even though they climbed up another way and these wayward saints followed a stranger's voice (tongues without interpretation) which is the result of climbing up another way, they are still His as He "must" bring them as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him even though there will be a falling away from the faith in the last days.

    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: ..............

    John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    May God cause the increase in recovering some believers from the snare of the devil which has been in the world before Christ came.

    As it is, I do not believe the wayward saints left behind will make up that apostate one world church, seeing how the mark of the beast will be dominant then, and that His promise stands as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.
     
  15. I believe Jesus described a specific time when faith is hard to find thus signalling the end of the times of the Gentiles for His House to be judged at the pre tribulational rapture event before handing the despensation of the gospel back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses, of whom will believe in Him at His appearing to serve as witnesses for the coming great tribulation.

    Luke 187 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.

    Isaiah 51Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. 8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
     
  16. Sounds like you are quite presumptuous on this point. To make a point that "everytime" is to acknowledge that you personally know each and every Christian out there, which would make you God. Rather say that in your opinion some of your experiences have led you to believe "everytime a believer....."

    Remember the Holy Spirit is a full part of God - He is not a mystical force. If we pray to the Holy Spirit then we also pray to God the Father and to Jesus the Son. This is basic doctrine on the Holy Spirit. I never indicated the Holy Spirit moves on His own accord, that is your false asumption based on what you think I said or implied. The Holy Spirit has been sent for many reasons and one of them is as a counsellor and comforter to believers - surely we can communicate with our counsellor who is actually God? This doesnt mean He will move on His own accord.

    Isaiah 8:19 refers to people going to known mediums who chirp like birds and mutter - this is not a reference to the Holy Spirit gift of tongues - streched isogesis at best. If Christians go to mediums today, then they do so at their own peril and they do so with no discernment. Yes there are false "tongues" out there and if they lead us away from the truth then they are not of God - that is where we need to start discerning.

    Interpretation of tongues is only required in the corporate setting when tongues is used in a public or church setting. When used in private there is no need for an interpretor (1 Cor. 14: 2-3). To imply God would copy Satan is nothing short of blasphemous.
     
  17. I was referring to "everytime" a believer referenced that verse about asking the Father for the Holy Spirit and yet they turn around and ask the Holy Spirit directly instead. There are no verses supporting asking the Spirit directly.

    This is where I get that meaning of you asking the Holy Spirit as if He moves on His own accord below from your quote.
    Asking the Holy Spirit to fill you is you testifying that He moves on His own accord. The fact that you credit the Holy Spirit for answering your prayers directly shows the deviation from the point of answered prayers in John 14:13-14 about the Father being glorified in the Son for the Son in answering those prayers as only He ca be the only Mediator between God and man.

    But that is what you are testifying of when you use tongues that comes without interpretation as a prayer language, because that kind of tongue was in the world before the gospel came and so that is why Paul specified that God's gift of tongues was of other men's lips.

    True or false: The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears: John 16:13 & Matthew 10:20

    True or false: The Father knows before we ask anything in prayer: Matthew 6:7-8

    So why would the Holy Spirit need to use God's gift of tongues as a prayer language when the whole purpose of answered prayers is for the Father to be glorified in the Son for the Son answering our prayers. You cannot do that if you did not know what you had prayed for.... and to the Holy Spirit Whom has not been given that role to serve in.

    Do not use the deity of the Holy Spirit to justify deferring the glory of the role of the Son to the Holy Spirit's role. The Holy Spirit was not whipped, beatened, spat upon, and crucified on the cross for us. The Son, Jesus Christ, did that. So do not apply any role that is specified towards the Son in seeking His glory to give the Son's glory to the Holy Spirit's, otherwise, you are at risk for dishonouring the Son which is the standard of judgment hanging over every believer. John 5:22-23

    And do not use the excuse about blaspheming the Holy Spirit when I had given you scripture as just cause as to why you should not believe every spirit that comes over you nor the tongues they bring as being of God.

    Brother: the Son, Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom. Not the Holy Spirit. The Son is how we relate to God the Father. Scripture testifies that the Holy Spirit within us is still pointing believers to relate to God the Father through the Son. Luke 13:24 John 10:1 John 10:7-9 John 14:6-7 You need to go before that throne of grace for help to depart from this unBiblical practise before te Bridegroom comes to judge His House in restoring the wayward sainst to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.
     
  18. Enow...

    First of all...The inner man is renewed daily:

    2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

    Second:

    We 'grow in Grace'

    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen

    Because the depths of Grace are unsearchable:

    Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    And the Holy Spirit intercedes for us- so yes the Spirit moves on His own:

    Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

    You must have a different spirit than the Holy Spirit that I have been given. His capacity is far more than I can ever imagine.The Holy Spirit that I have received will continue to do a work in me until the last day, and will do things that I never know about.

    Why all of this tongues business anyway, it doesn't seem to have anything remotely to do with this thread. As far as receiving the Holy Spirit twice... Scriptures say it is impossible so why argue it?

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    I think you can quit arguing a moot point now and get back to the original topic lol which was:

    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    How can this prophecy happen? Is this the warning below of how it can occur?

    It is pretty clear to me how it can happen...it says it right in the text 'some shall depart from the faith'


    And 2 timothy 3 gives us more info

    2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    So they love God, but not as much as pleasures of this life...
    We are there now...what to argue? How can it happen...They forget they are in a war for their spiritual lives with the god of this world and they forget to put on the FULL armor of God.

    T/C
     
  19. That does not testify nor justify the practise of continuing seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Do note that it says nothing about the Holy Spirit in that verse. Here's a renewal that does not involve a supernatural phenomenon:
    Romans 12:2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    I do not see a necessity in opposing conforming to this world by seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit daily.
    Ephesians 422 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    Again, I do see renewing of our mind and nothing about some supernatural phenomeon as a requirement to do so.

    That is not what is being testified here in that reference. This is actually a testimony of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ as our only Mediator in according to the will of God in verse 27 above. If you will note that the "he" that searches the hearts is seperate from us in doing so and knowing the mind of the Spirit is seperate from the Spirit in doing so, then verse 27 is testifying to another Member of the Triune God, Whom happens to be the Son as the One that searches our hearts.

    Hebrews 412 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    So verse 27 is testifying of the Son, and the reason it was written in that way was to explain how the Holy Spirit was serving as a means ( itself ) for the intercession INDIRECTLY made by the Holy Spirit with no sound being uttered at all, and that was by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit. So the Holy Spirit does not make these intercessions DIRECTLY Himself, but by the Son searching our hearts and knowing the mind of the Spirit.

    All the words of the Father that the Spirit speaks, all the "fruits" of the Spirit and all the "gifts" of the Spirit are by the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son is the One working in us through the Holy Spirit within us.

    John 1613 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Philippians 16 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

    No. The promise is the same for all those that come to and believe in Jesus Christ: however, believers were warned about those preaching another Jesus or another spirit to receive, and that includes preaching another "Holy Spirit".

    Past tense which is in according to our faith in Jesus Christ. Testifying an ongoing filling of the Spirit means you are not new wineskin and unable to hold the new wine which is a false testimony, because you are filled. ( Matthew 9:17 )

    These seducing spirit will continue to steal the glory and the spotliught away from the Son in testifying of these spirits which is not the Holy Spirit BECAUSE John 16:13-14 states that the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself in seeking the glory of the Son, and thus those led by the Spirit of God will be doing also. There can be no deference on this for any believer led by the Spirit of God in being a faithful witness so we can discern a false witness of those seeking the glory of another other than the Son because it is by the glory of the Son is the Father in Heaven glorified and by no other way. ( John 13:31-32 )

    Your reference is making my point. One cannot be filled again as they were at salvation.

    The point about tongues is that most movement of the "spirit" hype those already saved into seeking to receive the Holy Spirit AGAIN after a sign of tongues which happens to come with no interpretation.

    Right. And in hypocrisey also. Many wayward believers believe that they have the Holy Spirit but yet seek to receive Him again which is in according to your reference in Hebrew is impossible because they had been bought with a price now as their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit as He is here to stay so we can testified that Jesus Christ is the Saviour after coming to and believing in Him and thu being filled means we are saved.

    Believers were also warned not to suffer a thief to break through and to heed His words and do them which is to keep our eyes on the Son, the Bridegroom, in relating to God the Father because the Son really is the ONLY way to God the Father: the commandment of His invitation speaks more than just salvation, but how believers abide in Him as His disciples to avoid having their houses suffer a thief to break through and many houses are falling because of it: as they are in these "slain in the 'spirit'" movement and the 'holy laughter' movement.

    By seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again or another filling of the Spirit, that is taking off the shield of faith and suffering a thief to break through, having their houses roughed up and fallen because of it.

    Proverbs 2526 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring....28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

    Errant believers fail to see that because they are calling on the Person of the Holy Spirit in prayer, but by doing so, they had stepped outside of the will of God the Father in how any believer as well as any sinner are to approach Him and that is by way of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom is called the Bridegroom for that very reason so as to avoid false spirits as well as false prophets. By departing from faith, God permitted a strong delusion to occur for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again and again and again after a sign, thus becoming an adulterous generation.

    So there is a need to repent by returning to our first love, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the Bridegroom as we are to be chaste in our reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Enow, You said:

    "That does not testify nor justify the practise of continuing seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Do note that it says nothing about the Holy Spirit in that verse."

    Since there was two verses there, I will add them both.

    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen

    Because the depths of Grace are unsearchable:

    Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    Enow, I can understand now why you are struggling...You see they are both a direct reference to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Grace!! The power of God resting within us is true grace. I don't know what grace you have...

    It seems to me that you are trying to say we are filled with the Holy Spirit right in the very beginning of our walk with Him? That isn't even close to what scriptures say my friend, there is massive amount of proof that lies within the word against that theory.

    Starting with:

    1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


    But if you are right in that thinking, explain what a carnal Christian is and how they become spiritual Christians. Also explain by what power does the Lord do a work in us until the day He returns?

    And how is it that many only taste the heavenly gift and then fall away? Your doctrine is so convoluted and wrong thinking that it makes no sense...


    Enow, you also said:
    "Errant believers fail to see that because they are calling on the Person of the Holy Spirit in prayer, but by doing so, they had stepped outside of the will of God the Father in how any believer as well as any sinner are to approach Him"


    Really? How did Jesus say to approach the Father? You seem to make the distinction that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one?

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    If you are praying to the father-in the Holy Spirit, you are approaching Him in the correct way.

    Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    If you don't have the Holy Ghost, there is no other way to the father. only through Jesus my friend. Be careful what you are saying my friend- lest you blaspheme that worthy name by which you have been called!

    I would ask you this Enow...Is what you are speaking fruitful? Is it ministering grace to the hearer or causing confusion?

    You said:

    Past tense which is in according to our faith in Jesus Christ. Testifying an ongoing filling of the Spirit means you are not new wineskin and unable to hold the new wine which is a false testimony, because you are filled. ( Matthew 9:17 )

    What?... 'past tense' Let's look at this idea of 'past tense'

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    By your definition, we cannot do this next bit:


    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


    Were you 'filled' with Grace right from the beginning? You must be the most powerful spiritual being on the planet! Are you saying that now you are 'filled' and have no room by which to grow spiritually? You must have fruits of the Spirit like no other ! What you say makes no sense... Not all of us receive the same amount of Grace,


    Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


    Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

    We are all different size wineskins my friend, and all have different amounts of wine in those wineskins. If you think your 'wineskin' is instantly filled, you are deluded. You couldn't handle that kind of thing. That kind of power and knowledge would destroy you! We start out as babes and grow spiritually. Our wineskin fills up as we seek the word, and it is written in our hearts.

    If you think you are instantly reborn, by the Word of God and FULL of the Holy Spirit, I got some property I'll sell you on the moon for cheap lol

    May you grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour AMEN

    T/C
     
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