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Hell not eternal / Study

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by ATP, Feb 7, 2015.

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  1. Note 1: The Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Lake of Fire is Revelation symbolism. The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

    Note 2: Gehenna - This is simply Gee-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom," translated into Greek letters· This valley was situated in the neighborhood of Jerusalem, and originally was noted for the infamous rites practiced there in the worship of Moloch, in the times of the idolatrous kings of Judah.

    These scriptures show that hell is translated Gehenna..

    If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matt 5:29 NIV

    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 NIV

    "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Matt 23:15 NIV

    "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matt 23:33 NIV

    These scriptures show that hell is translated Gehenna which is the Valley of Hinnom..

    If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:43-48 NIV

    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:5 NIV

    This scripture speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

    This scripture speaks of Gehenna the Valley of Hinnom and dead bodies, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV. Isa 66:24 also is referring to when the 1,000 year reign with Christ is complete Rev 20:5 NIV.

    “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Isa 66:22-24 NIV

    In Jude 1:7, you can clearly see that eternal fire is not eternal, only to be used metaphorically..

    In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 NIV

    In Exo 40:13-15 and Lev 16:32-34, you can clearly see that everlasting is not everlasting, only to be used metaphorically..

    And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. 14And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats: 15And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. Ex 40:13-15 KJV

    And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: 33And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. 34And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. Lev 16:32-34 KJV

    If we also go to Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46, we see that Olam and Aionios do not mean forever..

    Dan 12:2/http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Matt 25:46/Aionios - Greek doesn't really have a word to describe that so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion". The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal.

    Eternal life however is forever..

    Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36 NIV

    Lastly, we see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

    When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

    For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

    But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

    But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

    May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

    But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

    "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

    Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

    Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

    The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

    For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

    The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

    Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

    - ATP
     
  2. You mentioned Mat. 25:46, but since "aionion" is used for both life and punishment, it has the same duration for both. What is being contrasted is life and punishment, not the duration. It would be a fallacy called "special pleading" to say that the duration is endless for one but limited for the other, since they are in the same sentence.

    I spoke to someone who also argued that aionion must be limited in duration, but when faced with this verse, he decided that life must also be limited, rather than that punishment could possibly be endless. He proposed a series of ages after "life" to get around the fact that there could possibly be an end to our immortal existence. But this merely moves the line in the sand, since an "endless" series of ages is really no solution to the problem of "age-during" life.

    I would also note that destruction doesn't necessarily mean non-existence.
     
    Waggles likes this.
  3. Well, it doesn't have the same duration. God is life and Satan and Gehenna represent death. You also have to keep in mind that everlasting is an English term. So if you look at it from that perspective...Greek doesn't really have a word to describe that so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion". The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal. (Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to aionion punishment, but the righteous to aionion life.) The origin of eternity only comes from God himself. - ATP
     
  4. This still doesn't address the fact that Jesus used the same word to describe both life and punishment. The duration doesn't change.
     
  5. Well it does if the Greek does not have a word to translate Olam.
     
  6. G166 αἰώνιος
    aiōnios ahee-o'-nee-os
    From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
    G165 αἰών
    aiōn ahee-ohn'
    From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
    G104 ἀεί
    aei ah-eye'
    From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

    In reading the Scriptures of both the Old and New Testaments - I am pretty sure that the most consistent intention / meaning of eternity is exactly that. God deals with eternities. God is. The saints (the Spirit-filled) are promised to enter into the eternities with Christ Jesus on his return. Is it forever or not?
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5: 18
    The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40: 8 Or maybe not according to some.
    H5769
    עלם עולם
    ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm o-lawm', o-lawm'
    From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

    For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1Peter 1: 24-25
    The Word of God is always of effect, meaning and purpose. It cannot cease to be true, or lapse, or whatever...
    An age in worldly terms means a season, a duration, an epoch, an era. But in the spiritual realm where there is NO time as we know it - Before Abraham was, I AM - an age would encompass one continuing endless period - it always is.
     
    Relentless likes this.
  7. Matt 25:46 - Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” house has to be the same size as a “small” ring because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word.

    Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)

    - ATP
     
  8. All very interesting. But I am hopeful of not testing the destruction of my soul, whether for an age or for an eternity. Whatever the fate of the unGodly, it will be terrifying and final.
     
    Major and JG27_chili say Amen and like this.
  9. Not this again! Can't you just search the forum and read ad nauseum the other threads? Must you just be heard?
     
  10. Why would we need to have a Hebrew equivalent when we're talking about a Greek writing that is not a translation?

    And how can the same adjective change meanings in a single sentence just because of the nouns it modifies? Jesus contrasts life and punishment, not the duration.
     
  11. #11 Relentless, Feb 7, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
    Jesus is not comparing a house with a ring. In fact, I've seen this exact comparison before, by one of the more prominent Universalist teachers. Either you've read his work or you are the person I've met before; see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Matthew-25-46-Commentary-Amirault.html . His claim there of aionion having greater "force" when paired with "zoe" is false and contrived.

    What you're trying to do is put your conclusion in your premise, which is another fallacy. Specifically, you decided beforehand that punishment can never be eternal, so every time you see punishment coupled with "aionion" you insert your preferred meaning. You have conceded that "aionon" can indeed mean "endless/eternal" by applying it to "life", so the problem for you now is that you cannot guarantee that it is limited to "age" only when it describes "punishment".

    In other words, you cannot solve the problem of Jesus using "aionion" for both life and punishment without imposing your foregone conclusion that punishment can never be endless.
     
    Waggles likes this.
  12. I have no idea where you get this from. Mal 4:3 does not even mention the Valley of Hinnom, no, not even in such a poor paraphrase as the niv
    If you have that wrong, can't you see that your entire thesis is in need of revision?
     
    Major likes this.
  13. My thesis is correct.
     
  14. I wanted to add that I would submit that the Lake of Fire is going to be part of the Dead sea. Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom would be in the vicinity of the Lake.

    Note 1: The Lake of Fire is around the vicinity of Gehenna, in the Dead Sea. Lake of Fire is Revelation symbolism. The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

    Note 2: The Lake of Fire Location - http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm / Dead Sea - http://www.landofthebible.com/images/posttrip07.jpg

    Note 3: From http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm ...Sixthly, the lake cannot be Gehenna (another name of “hell” in the King James Version). The area of Gehenna (sometimes called Tophet) is a valley located on the southern edges of Jerusalem. In no way can the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) be considered “a lake.” It is also not the “bottomless pit” (Greek: abyss) because that is a pit in the earth with a door that a key can open (Revelation 9:1–2). Admittedly, the description of the abyss is figurative, but it is not suitable to connect a door and key with an entrance to “a lake."

    The Valley of Hinnom commenced at Jerusalem and journeyed eastwards at a precipitous rate until it emptied into the northern parts of the Dead Sea. The watercourse is know to this very day as the Wady en-Nar (Arabic: The Streambed of Fire). This Valley of Hinnom (that is, the Gehenna mentioned by Christ) was about fifteen miles long. It plummeted into the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire). This means that Gehenna and the Lake of the Fire were typically connected.

    What is so striking is the contrast: A beautiful and well watered land on the west side with the crests of the Holy Land, and then (so quickly and abruptly) the thorough desolation of the “Land of the Scapegoat”—the region traversed by Gehenna (the Streambed of Fire), the location of the abyss (bottomless pit), and then the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire).

    - ATP
     
  15. Ezekiel 47:7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river. 8 He said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Dead Sea. When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live.

    Clearly the Dead Sea will not remain dead forever; in fact, it will be living and pleasant during the Millennium.
     
  16. This was a vision given to Ezekiel. Ezekiel 47:1-12 is a vision in regards to the New Earth after the Millennium. We should be so thankful.
     
  17. I disagree. Since we can identify the geography, and since the old heaven/earth will be destroyed after the Millennium, this vision is of the time during the Millennium. At any rate, it can't be the Lake of Fire, since during the Millennium it's fresh and alive, and it won't exist at all afterwards.
     
    Major likes this.
  18. Well, of course we know the geography. Jerusalem will be the center of the New Earth. Yes it will be destroyed, thus being the old earth and new earth.

    I would disagree on that. John tells us that the lake will be in existence and active with fire prior to the Millennium (Revelation 19:20). This means it will be fully in evidence before the second advent of Christ to this earth.
     
  19. What I mean is that the present earth geography will be identifiable during the Millennium, but not after. So whatever the earth is like after that, it won't have any Dead Sea. And nothing about the New Jerusalem tells us that it will be near any sea or lake; in fact, there will be no seas at all.


    Yes, of course the Lake of Fire will exist before the Millennium, just as it will exist afterwards for eternity. What won't exist is the Dead Sea.

    There is nothing in scripture to place the Lake of Fire on earth.
     
  20. The sea in Rev 20:13 and Rev 21:1 is symbolic. There will be no sea; this aptly represents freedom from conflicting passions, temptations, troubles, changes, and alarms; from whatever can divide or interrupt the communion of saints. It is symbolic of the restless, unstable, wicked nations of the earth, which now exist no longer. Rev 20:13 is not saying the body of water gave up the dead, no. That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Rather it is saying the troubles of the world gave up the dead that were in it.

    Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
    Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

    No, the lake of Fire will be renewed and the Dead Sea will be purified. Ezekiel 47:1-12.

    I would disagree. Jesus speaks of the wicked being tossed into Gehenna. Gehenna is on earth. Rev 20:15 says the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire. So if Jesus is saying they will be thrown into Gehenna and John is saying they will be thrown into the lake of fire, then 1 + 1 =2. (Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.)
     
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