Hell not eternal / Study

[Relentless]

The sea in Rev 20:13 and Rev 21:1 is symbolic. There will be no sea; this aptly represents freedom from conflicting passions, temptations, troubles, changes, and alarms; from whatever can divide or interrupt the communion of saints. It is symbolic of the restless, unstable, wicked nations of the earth, which now exist no longer. Rev 20:13 is not saying the body of water gave up the dead, no. That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Rather it is saying the troubles of the world gave up the dead that were in it.

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

I don't see anything in the context to take the sea as symbolic. The passage already lists the things that will not be present, so there is no need to symbolize them or the lack of them. Also, the sea is a literal place where many died, so there is no reason for it not to be literal when speaking of giving up its dead. It makes perfect sense to me. To allegorize or spiritualize to such an extent makes any discussion of it rather pointless.

No, the lake of Fire will be renewed and the Dead Sea will be purified. Ezekiel 47:1-12.

I don't see any renewal of the Lake of Fire, and I already said that the Dead Sea will become a fresh-water body teeming with life, but it will cease to exist in the new Earth.

I would disagree. Jesus speaks of the wicked being tossed into Gehenna. Gehenna is on earth. Rev 20:15 says the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire. So if Jesus is saying they will be thrown into Gehenna and John is saying they will be thrown into the lake of fire, then 1 + 1 =2. (Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.)

The place Jesus referred to was literal and right there where the people could see it, but like lambs or fish or anything else, Jesus often used such things as an illustration of a literal spiritual reality. He pointed to that ever-burning trash heap as illustrative of the eternal suffering of the wicked. This is a very good illustration of the Lake of Fire. So by saying people would be thrown into Gehenna, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of the Lake of Fire. This is derived from the context, which includes Jesus' habit of using everyday objects to teach about spiritual things. In Rev., however, nothing in the context indicates symbolic meaning for the Lake of Fire.

 

[calvin]

IMNSHO you do err in thinking the lake of fire will have a definable geographical location.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Though the above is somewhat ambiguous as it stands, Rev 20:6. associates the second death with the lake of fire, not being cast into a place. So it would appear that the lake of fire is a permanent plight..that of being twice dead.

 

[Relentless]

Some thoughts of mine on Universalism/Annihilationism: http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-universalism-a-quick-reference/

 

[calvin]

Rev 20:12,13,14 are simply talking about the completeness of the gathering of all souls who were not included in the first resurrection Rev 20:5. It is not all that complicated.

 

[calvin]

Some thoughts of mine on Universalism/Annihilationism: http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-universalism-a-quick-reference/

Rebuttal: Would a loving God value a confession made under duress? Not even human courts accept this. And would a loving God say, I’m going to torment you until you ‘cry uncle’? This is not how healthy relationships work.
luv it

 

[ATP]

I don't see anything in the context to take the sea as symbolic. The passage already lists the things that will not be present, so there is no need to symbolize them or the lack of them. Also, the sea is a literal place where many died, so there is no reason for it not to be literal when speaking of giving up its dead. It makes perfect sense to me. To allegorize or spiritualize to such an extent makes any discussion of it rather pointless.

The sea there is definitely symbolic, as in the entire book of Revelation. The sea is where many died? Are you referring to people that were lost at sea, like fisherman? That seems a little silly to me. Whereas the rest of humanity are buried in graves on earth.

I don't see any renewal of the Lake of Fire, and I already said that the Dead Sea will become a fresh-water body teeming with life, but it will cease to exist in the new Earth.

But what you're not grasping is that Ezekiel had a vision. Similar to the vision John had in Rev 4:1. John wasn't literally in heaven, rather he had a vision of heaven.

The place Jesus referred to was literal and right there where the people could see it, but like lambs or fish or anything else, Jesus often used such things as an illustration of a literal spiritual reality. He pointed to that ever-burning trash heap as illustrative of the eternal suffering of the wicked. This is a very good illustration of the Lake of Fire. So by saying people would be thrown into Gehenna, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of the Lake of Fire. This is derived from the context, which includes Jesus' habit of using everyday objects to teach about spiritual things. In Rev., however, nothing in the context indicates symbolic meaning for the Lake of Fire.

But it does, in Rev 20:15, the same wicked people Jesus spoke of. Gehenna is on earth. I'm not sure how else to explain that. The entire book of Revelation is symbolic. Jesus speaks of the wicked being tossed into Gehenna. Gehenna is on earth. Rev 20:15 says the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire. So if Jesus is saying they will be thrown into Gehenna and John is saying they will be thrown into the lake of fire, then 1 + 1 =2. (GEHENNA Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 NIV) (LAKE OF FIRE Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.) IN HELL in Matt 10:28 is referring to the afterlife.

This scripture speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

 

[Relentless]

Rebuttal: Would a loving God value a confession made under duress? Not even human courts accept this. And would a loving God say, I’m going to torment you until you ‘cry uncle’? This is not how healthy relationships work.
luv it

 

[ATP]

Once you have the right doctrines, connecting the dots is easy.

 

[Relentless]

The sea there is definitely symbolic, as in the entire book of Revelation. The sea is where many died? Are you referring to people that were lost at sea, like fisherman? That seems a little silly to me. Whereas the rest of humanity are buried in graves on earth.

The entire book of Revelation is not symbolic. For example, the angel explains the meaning of the woman on the beast, and that she is a city. We can't then take city as a symbol of something else. Also the seven letters; they could symbolize other things but they were also definitely literal churches of the time. As for people dying at sea, yes, that's what I was referring to, and no, it isn't silly.

But what you're not grasping is that Ezekiel had a vision. Similar to the vision John had in Rev 4:1. John wasn't literally in heaven, rather he had a vision of heaven.

John told what he saw on earth, and then he said he was told to "come up here" where he saw more things, and he gave no indication of still being on earth for that. Of course Ezekiel had a vision; I do grasp that. But of what? Symbols of good and evil or something else vague and undefined? No, he was shown the future, a literal future with a literal Israel and a literal Temple. Or you can just make up whatever.

But it does, in Rev 20:15, the same wicked people Jesus spoke of. Gehenna is on earth. I'm not sure how else to explain that. The entire book of Revelation is symbolic. Jesus speaks of the wicked being tossed into Gehenna. Gehenna is on earth. Rev 20:15 says the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire. So if Jesus is saying they will be thrown into Gehenna and John is saying they will be thrown into the lake of fire, then 1 + 1 =2. (GEHENNA Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 NIV) (LAKE OF FIRE Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.) IN HELL in Matt 10:28 is referring to the afterlife.

I already explained that Gehenna is on earth. I also explained that Gehenna is only a type or illustration of the Lake of Fire. So when Jesus uses the Gehenna they could see, the same way he used anything else like farming or trees, this does not mean Gehenna = Lake of Fire. It means Gehenna is a type or illustration of the Lake of Fire. You're taking an illustrative teaching device and making it the formal name of an eternal abode of the wicked.

This scripture speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

Not sure what point you're making with this.

 

[calvin]

Once you have the right doctrines, connecting the dots is easy.

You are right there, the trick is getting doctrine correct in the first place.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
That should set the pace.
Revelation is a revealing of Jesus Christ, and His role in the history of mankind. To say of Revelation......

The sea there is definitely symbolic, as in the entire book of Revelation.

is erroneous.
You wont understand the lake of fire or the second death until you understand the first death.

 

[ATP]

The entire book of Revelation is not symbolic. For example, the angel explains the meaning of the woman on the beast, and that she is a city. We can't then take city as a symbol of something else. Also the seven letters; they could symbolize other things but they were also definitely literal churches of the time. As for people dying at sea, yes, that's what I was referring to, and no, it isn't silly.

The majority of it is, majority is a better word.

Of course Ezekiel had a vision; I do grasp that. But of what? Symbols of good and evil or something else vague and undefined? No, he was shown the future, a literal future with a literal Israel and a literal Temple. Or you can just make up whatever.

It was a vision of Rev 22:1-5 on the New Earth. The river of life.

Rev 22:1-5 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

I already explained that Gehenna is on earth. I also explained that Gehenna is only a type or illustration of the Lake of Fire. So when Jesus uses the Gehenna they could see, the same way he used anything else like farming or trees, this does not mean Gehenna = Lake of Fire. It means Gehenna is a type or illustration of the Lake of Fire. You're taking an illustrative teaching device and making it the formal name of an eternal abode of the wicked.

But you're not understanding the lake of fire is symbolic for Gehenna. Lake of Fire is Revelation symbolism. The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

Not sure what point you're making with this.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:39-40 KJV)

If the whole valley of dead bodies was burning wouldn't that look like a lake of fire? Compare this with the prophecy from Isaiah.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:23-1 KJV)

Jesus quotes this and calls it Gehenna. Gehenna is in the Valley of the Son Hinnom. In both prophesies we have a valley, dead bodies, and fire.

 

[Relentless]

The majority of it is, majority is a better word.

So, for example, you think that the four horses wreaking havoc is only symbolic of evil in the world, or do you take them to represent real, physical havoc on the earth?

It was a vision of Rev 22:1-5 on the New Earth. The river of life...

No, it was a vision of the lay of the land for Israel during the Millennium, including a river, temple, sacred district, farmland, and a prince with children. You're cobbling together two different things. But as I said: if you're going to allegorize or spiritualize everything, then you can make up whatever you want and it's a waste of time to discuss it.

But you're not understanding the lake of fire is symbolic for Gehenna. Lake of Fire is Revelation symbolism. The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

You have it backwards: Gehenna is symbolic of the Lake of Fire. No need to repeat all that.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:39-40 KJV)

If the whole valley of dead bodies was burning wouldn't that look like a lake of fire? Compare this with the prophecy from Isaiah.

Wow... seriously, you're just grabbing any and all fire/ash-related snippets and gluing them together. This approach to scripture is completely arbitrary and based solely upon whim and preference. And I won't waste any more time showing why it's wrong.

 

[ATP]

So, for example, you think that the four horses wreaking havoc is only symbolic of evil in the world, or do you take them to represent real, physical havoc on the earth?

They represent real havoc on the earth, in the Seven Year Great Trib.

No, it was a vision of the lay of the land for Israel during the Millennium, including a river, temple, sacred district, farmland, and a prince with children. You're cobbling together two different things. But as I said: if you're going to allegorize or spiritualize everything, then you can make up whatever you want and it's a waste of time to discuss it.

You need to do your own research. Ezekiel 47:1-12 and Rev 22:1-5 are inner connected. Look up Ez 47:1 and Rev 22:1.

Wow... seriously, you're just grabbing any and all fire/ash-related snippets and gluing them together. This approach to scripture is completely arbitrary and based solely upon whim and preference. And I won't waste any more time showing why it's wrong.

Do you understand what Isa 66:23-24 KJV and Jer 31:39-40 KJV is referring too.

 

[Waggles]

I wanted to add that I would submit that the Lake of Fire is going to be part of the Dead sea. Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom would be in the vicinity of the Lake.

You know when I read your extremely speculative posts on this subject the Scripture that immediately comes to mind is: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2Timothy 3: 7
Rather than spending time in endless debates on theological nonsense, I make good use of the author of the holy Word of God who dwells within me.
The Abyss and the Lake of Fire are not physical locations. Both lie within the spiritual realm. You may be taken from this worldly dimension and forcefully thrown out into the outer darkness, and you may be thrown into a Lake of Fire - but it is your soul that goes to these places of anguish or spiritual death, despair, sorrow, etc.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Mark 9: 44 and, verses 46, 48
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Thessalonians 1: 8-9
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.1Corinthians 15: 46
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.1Corinthians 15: 53

 

[Relentless]

They represent real havoc on the earth, in the Seven Year Great Trib.

Then there goes your "almost all of it is symbolic" argument. All the symbols mean something literal, and that includes the Lake of Fire.

As for telling me to do my own research, that's really condescending of you to say. I have in fact done quite a lot of my own research. I just strongly disagree with your, um, hermeneutical methods. As I said: if the scriptures are so malleable and so symbolic that you can make them mean pretty much anything, then further discussion is pointless.

 

[ATP]

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Mark 9: 44 and, verses 46, 48

But one day the valley in which the dead bodies will burn will be made holy unto the Lord, and the earth will be renewed.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:39-40 KJV)

 

[ATP]

Then there goes your "almost all of it is symbolic" argument. All the symbols mean something literal, and that includes the Lake of Fire.

Not quite. The lake of fire IS literal. It is connected to Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom commenced at Jerusalem and journeyed eastwards at a precipitous rate until it emptied into the northern parts of the Dead Sea. The watercourse is know to this very day as the Wady en-Nar (Arabic: The Streambed of Fire). This Valley of Hinnom (that is, the Gehenna mentioned by Christ) was about fifteen miles long. It plummeted into the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire). This means that Gehenna and the Lake of the Fire were typically connected.

As for telling me to do my own research, that's really condescending of you to say. I have in fact done quite a lot of my own research. I just strongly disagree with your, um, hermeneutical methods. As I said: if the scriptures are so malleable and so symbolic that you can make them mean pretty much anything, then further discussion is pointless.

Very well.

 

[ATP]

I have no idea where you get this from. Mal 4:3 does not even mention the Valley of Hinnom, no, not even in such a poor paraphrase as the niv

Sorry about that. I was referring to Jer 31:39-40 that speaks of the Valley of Hinnom. Both passages refer to the ashes in which we will trample on in the distant future.

 

[calvin]

OK, however do you really think we have been saved to go stamping over an ash heap ? A bit messy don't you think?

 

[ATP]

OK, however do you really think we have been saved to go stamping over an ash heap ? A bit messy don't you think?

Lol. Yeah that would be messy, yes the New Earth will be much more than that. We will spend eternity with God, doesn't get much better. But before we trample over the ashes of the wicked, we will first go out and look on the dead bodies. Pretty messy huh. Yucky.

Isa 66:24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Isa 66:24 - http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/isaiah58-66-lbw-nh.htm
This verse describes a terrible scene. It refers to the deep narrow valley called Hinnom. This valley is near to *Jerusalem, on the south side. (The *New Testament uses the *Greek word Gehenna for the *Hebrew word Hinnom – see Matthew 10:28). In the Hinnom Valley, two wicked kings of Israel burned their sons as a *sacrifice to false gods (Ahaz, see 2 Chronicles 28:3; Manasseh, see 2 Chronicles 33:6). And other people copied this wicked behaviour (see Jeremiah 7:32; 19:5-6; 32:35).

· Later, the inhabitants of *Jerusalem threw their rubbish into the Hinnom Valley. What worms did not eat, fire destroyed. The fire never went out. Soon, what happened became powerful picture language to describe Hell. Jesus uses this verse, to mean ‘to *destroy totally’ (see Mark 9:48). Isaiah 66:24 is describing those people who refuse to serve God. They refuse to obey God’s instructions. But God is the origin of life. So these people have removed themselves from the God who gave them life. The verse describes their punishment as the extreme opposite of life. They have brought about their own terrible punishment. And that punishment is death that lasts for all time. (See Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10.)