Hell not eternal / Study

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Who says?

Good afternoon.

Well, I would say that Jesus says. We see that in Rev 20:10-15 NIV the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, the same place or location of where the wicked also go after death, which is Gehenna Matt 10:28 NIV. The scripture of (Jer 31:38-40 NIV) speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

The term "lake of fire" is used symbolically to describe a very very large pile of dead bodies inside the valley, where the bodies will be burned. At that point the place that is the "lake of fire" is literal, but the name is symbolic. For example, the word "lake" simply describes "a valley" of dead bodies being burned. The beginning of verse 40 describes the lake of fire, "The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown".

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

- ATP
 
Good afternoon.

Well, I would say that Jesus says. We see that in Rev 20:10-15 NIV the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, the same place or location of where the wicked also go after death, which is Gehenna Matt 10:28 NIV. The scripture of (Jer 31:38-40 NIV) speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

The term "lake of fire" is used symbolically to describe a very very large pile of dead bodies inside the valley, where the bodies will be burned. At that point the place that is the "lake of fire" is literal, but the name is symbolic. For example, the word "lake" simply describes "a valley" of dead bodies being burned. The beginning of verse 40 describes the lake of fire, "The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown".

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

- ATP
You might want to check your Greek because the word "lake" means pond or lake. Furthermore, it also contains brimstone. Hell and death are also thrown in. Hell is pretty big, bigger than the valley of Hinnom. You've got it backwards, Gehenna is the symbolism for a place of torment, a metaphor. Just like saying "as big as Mt. Everest" to mean very big. Jesus was giving them examples they could comprehend. Why is this such a big deal. Focus on Jesus and none of this will matter, then spread the word about Jesus.
 
You might want to check your Greek because the word "lake" means pond or lake.

Well of course it does because the word lake is being used to describe the valley of dead bodies. For example, I could say 6 million Jews were thrown into a pit. Or I could say 6 million Jews were thrown into a mass grave. The pit is describing the mass grave, just like the "lake of fire" is describing the Valley of Hinnom.

Furthermore, it also contains brimstone. Hell and death are also thrown in. Hell is pretty big, bigger than the valley of Hinnom.

So, brimstone is part of God's wrath. He even made it rain brimstone, remember? (Gen 19:24 NIV) . He's also going to rain down brimstone during the (Ezekiel 38-39 KJV) war in the distant future. Also, how would you know it's bigger than the valley. The dimensions of hell aren't given to us, unlike the dimensions of the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:9-27 NIV. You could easily fit bodies on top of bodies in the valley. I don't see that as a problem. They even burned bodies in the valley in the time of Moloch. http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/images/02themas/hinnom.jpg

You've got it backwards, Gehenna is the symbolism for a place of torment, a metaphor. Just like saying "as big as Mt. Everest" to mean very big. Jesus was giving them examples they could comprehend.

No, Gehenna is not symbolism or a metaphor. Gehenna (Ancient Greek) is the Valley of Hinnom (Hebrew) located in Jerusalem, a physical place. http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/images/02themas/hinnom.jpg

Why is this such a big deal. Focus on Jesus and none of this will matter, then spread the word about Jesus.

It's a big deal because the majority of Christians believe hell is eternal. They follow tradition or what they've been conditioned to believe. God leaving nonbelievers to burn for eternity is a fictional story only inside the imagination of the Christian. Jesus was simply using the Valley of Hinnom to describe hell and what it would look like. But one day the bodies will turn to ashes, the fire will be no more, the earth will be renewed and the valley will be made holy to the Lord. In that instance, it's impossible for hell to be eternal.
 
Well of course it does because the word lake is being used to describe the valley of dead bodies. For example, I could say 6 million Jews were thrown into a pit. Or I could say 6 million Jews were thrown into a mass grave. The pit is describing the mass grave, just like the "lake of fire" is describing the Valley of Hinnom.



So, brimstone is part of God's wrath. He even made it rain brimstone, remember? (Gen 19:24 NIV) . He's also going to rain down brimstone during the (Ezekiel 38-39 KJV) war in the distant future. Also, how would you know it's bigger than the valley. The dimensions of hell aren't given to us, unlike the dimensions of the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:9-27 NIV. You could easily fit bodies on top of bodies in the valley. I don't see that as a problem. They even burned bodies in the valley in the time of Moloch. http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/images/02themas/hinnom.jpg



No, Gehenna is not symbolism or a metaphor. Gehenna (Ancient Greek) is the Valley of Hinnom (Hebrew) located in Jerusalem, a physical place. http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/images/02themas/hinnom.jpg



It's a big deal because the majority of Christians believe hell is eternal. They follow tradition or what they've been conditioned to believe. God leaving nonbelievers to burn for eternity is a fictional story only inside the imagination of the Christian. Jesus was simply using the Valley of Hinnom to describe hell and what it would look like. But one day the bodies will turn to ashes, the fire will be no more, the earth will be renewed and the valley will be made holy to the Lord. In that instance, it's impossible for hell to be eternal.
It is eternal... it says so. You can't deny that. If everyone gets into heaven after trillions of years, why did Jesus die? His death is just an express ticket to heaven?! Come on now. Believe the word of God and stop making things up.
 
It is eternal... it says so. You can't deny that. If everyone gets into heaven after trillions of years, why did Jesus die? His death is just an express ticket to heaven?! Come on now. Believe the word of God and stop making things up.

Eternal, everlasting and forever and ever are English translations. English translations are mistranslations. Making things up? Huh.
 
Eternal, everlasting and forever and ever are English translations. English translations are mistranslations. Making things up? Huh.
Then I guess "eternal life" isn't eternal either... sounds like atheist belief - we just cease to be at death. And "eternal God" (Deu 33:27) is just the "eastern" God.

But then that's hogwash. Eternal is Greek is:

- Original: αιώνιος
- Transliteration: Aionios
- Phonetic: ahee-o'-nee-os
- Definition:
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

Which comes from :

- Original: αιών
- Transliteration: Aion
- Phonetic: ahee-ohn'
- Definition:
1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

which is the same word as:

- Original: αεί
- Transliteration: Aei
- Phonetic: ah-eye'
- Definition:
1. perpetually, incessantly
2. invariably, at any and every time: when according to the circumstances something is or ought to be done again


Care to revise your statement now? I doubt it... bye.
 
Eternal, everlasting and forever and ever are English translations. English translations are mistranslations. Making things up? Huh.
You're making things up as much as anyone else. The Greek word Jesus used in equating the duration of both punishment and life, in one sentence, cannot be given two different meanings just because of an a priori insistence that punishment cannot be endless. And you ignore figures of speech and context. What Greek word would you demand be used in scripture to denote eternity?
 
Then I guess "eternal life" isn't eternal either... sounds like atheist belief - we just cease to be at death. And "eternal God" (Deu 33:27) is just the "eastern" God.

Incorrect. Eternal life is forever..Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36 NIV

Matt 25:46 NIV / Aionios - Greek doesn't really have a word to describe that so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion". The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal. Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.

Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” television has to be the same size as a “small” radio because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word.

Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)

You're making things up as much as anyone else. The Greek word Jesus used in equating the duration of both punishment and life, in one sentence, cannot be given two different meanings just because of an a priori insistence that punishment cannot be endless. And you ignore figures of speech and context. What Greek word would you demand be used in scripture to denote eternity?

Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.

Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)
 
Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” television has to be the same size as a “small” radio
...
Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.
I've pointed out before that Jesus is certainly not comparing televisions and radios, or houses and watches, or anything else but life and punishment. I've also pointed out that it is a fallacy called "special pleading" to make the same word "aionios" change meaning depending on whether it describes life or punishment. There is nothing in the context or semantic range to choose a different meaning except to satisfy the desired conclusion that punishment cannot be eternal, which itself is a fallacy called "begging the question".

Jesus simply said "aionion life... aionion punishment", without any qualifying statements.
 
I've pointed out before that Jesus is certainly not comparing televisions and radios, or houses and watches, or anything else but life and punishment. I've also pointed out that it is a fallacy called "special pleading" to make the same word "aionios" change meaning depending on whether it describes life or punishment. There is nothing in the context or semantic range to choose a different meaning except to satisfy the desired conclusion that punishment cannot be eternal, which itself is a fallacy called "begging the question".

Jesus simply said "aionion life... aionion punishment", without any qualifying statements.

The lake of fire will be on earth Relentless, and the valley will be made holy to the Lord and the old earth will be renewed. The burning pile of dead bodies will not burn forever.

For the Devil to be tortured eternally, he would have to be kept alive forever. However, the Bible says that he will be brought to nothing, or put out of existence.—Hebrews 2:14 NIV
 
The lake of fire will be on earth Relentless, and the valley will be made holy to the Lord and the old earth will be renewed. The burning pile of dead bodies will not burn forever.

For the Devil to be tortured eternally, he would have to be kept alive forever. However, the Bible says that he will be brought to nothing, or put out of existence.—Hebrews 2:14 NIV
There is nothing in scripture to place the Lake of Fire on the earth. The Bible states clearly that Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet will be in conscious torment forever:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
There is nothing in scripture to place the Lake of Fire on the earth. The Bible states clearly that Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet will be in conscious torment forever:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Forever and ever is an English term. It is translated ages of the ages. How can the devil be tormented forever if he represents death Heb 2:14 NIV.

Lastly, we see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

- ATP
 
Forever and ever is an English term. It is translated ages of the ages. How can the devil be tormented forever if he represents death Heb 2:14 NIV.
It says the devil holds the power of death, not that the devil is or represents death. And please stop going on about the English meaning, since I've cited the Greek word aionion and I and others have shown you that "eternal" is part of its semantic range.

Lastly, we see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..
I've already posted a link to my thoughts on Universalism and won't endlessly repeat or copy/paste them here. Do you at least concede that the devil, Beast, and False Prophet will be in conscious eternal torment?
 
It says the devil holds the power of death, not that the devil is or represents death. And please stop going on about the English meaning, since I've cited the Greek word aionion and I and others have shown you that "eternal" is part of its semantic range.

The devil doesn't represent death? Hmmm.....

I've already posted a link to my thoughts on Universalism and won't endlessly repeat or copy/paste them here. Do you at least concede that the devil, Beast, and False Prophet will be in conscious eternal torment?

What do the words destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet mean to you.
 
Here's a question I'd like you to answer:

If people, or at least the devil, are to be tormented only for a while and then annihilated, what's the point of the torment?
 
Here's a question I'd like you to answer:

If people, or at least the devil, are to be tormented only for a while and then annihilated, what's the point of the torment?

That's like asking why Jesus would judge someone but annihilate them right away or burn them forever. Jesus is the one in control. (Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.) God is a consuming fire. The wicked will be consumed. They are judged according to what they have done in the body. (Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.)

What does "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" mean to you?

It means the wicked will be torturing themselves by not accepting Christ as Savior. Forever and ever is translated ages of the ages. http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
 
That's like asking why Jesus would judge someone but annihilate them right away or burn them forever. Jesus is the one in control. (Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.) God is a consuming fire. The wicked will be consumed. They are judged according to what they have done in the body. (Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.)
That's exactly my point: If people and/or the devil will be annihilated anyway, there's no point in making them suffer first, since they won't remember it anyway, and those who no longer exist aren't going to learn any lessons. Of course Jesus is in control, but that has exactly nothing to do with answering the question. If the wicked are consumed, meaning (according to you) that they will be annihilated, then there was no point in having them suffer for any length of time.

Also, consider this: the righteous dead go to the Bema Seat, but the unrighteous dead go to the Great White Throne judgment. So the division between righteous and wicked is made before the judgments even begin. And as you noted, judgment is according to our works. So the two judgments are on the basis of having already determined where we will spend eternity, and then all that remains is to determine the degree of our blessing or suffering according to our works. So again, there is no point in making the wicked suffer for a limited time and then annihilating them. There would be no point in weighing their works, since they will cease to exist and won't remember anything. The whole judgment is thus a farce, if your viewpoint is correct.


It means the wicked will be torturing themselves by not accepting Christ as Savior. Forever and ever is translated ages of the ages. http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
No, you made that up. Or somebody did. You have still not faced the fact that scripture explicitly states the eternal conscious suffering of the devil, beast, and false prophet, in the presence of the Lamb.
 
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