Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean?

[Musicmaster]

Real attention grabber, huh?

I've heard a couple of different explanations to what it means to be "grafted in." Some fixate on being grafted into Israel. Others talk about having been grafted into Christ.

Well, let's see what the Bible says. First and foremost is this from the words of Jesus Himself:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Then we see this, which many interpret as Gentiles having been grafted into Israel as the "tree":

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Hmm. when I read this, I don't see that the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, but rather AMONG the fellow branches. Why?

Well, what did Jesus say? Look back at the first verse quoted here from John 15. It is Christ who is the vine. When people take the latter and run off into the wild yonder of thinking that Gentiles possess the inferiority of being grafted into any of the branches, that simply doesn't work, neither in horticulture nor in spiritual realities.

If you would like further study on this, then here is a great teaching on this topic:

MM

 

[forgiven61]

I don't see that the Gentiles were grafted into Israel,

we are grafted into Jesus Israel has been set aside for the time being. Jesus is the true vine. they mystery is all israel saved

 

[Major]

Real attention grabber, huh?

I've heard a couple of different explanations to what it means to be "grafted in." Some fixate on being grafted into Israel. Others talk about having been grafted into Christ.

Well, let's see what the Bible says. First and foremost is this from the words of Jesus Himself:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Then we see this, which many interpret as Gentiles having been grafted into Israel as the "tree":

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Hmm. when I read this, I don't see that the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, but rather AMONG the fellow branches. Why?

Well, what did Jesus say? Look back at the first verse quoted here from John 15. It is Christ who is the vine. When people take the latter and run off into the wild yonder of thinking that Gentiles possess the inferiority of being grafted into any of the branches, that simply doesn't work, neither in horticulture nor in spiritual realities.

If you would like further study on this, then here is a great teaching on this topic:

MM

When Paul used the olive tree metaphor in Rom. 11 we understand he is following a tradition of linking Israel with the olive tree.

Therefore, the olive tree indicates Israel, and the “wild shoot” represents the Gentiles.

Now, every plant has a "root" and the root of Israel is Jesus.

 

[Musicmaster]

The problem with the claim that Gentiles were grafted into Israel is that when the natural branches are trimmed off and cast aside, that would include the Gentiles as well, which makes no sense. The Gentiles are wild branches among the natural ones. Israel does not nourish the other branches. The Root nourishes all the branches, Jew and Gentile.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

The problem with the claim that Gentiles were grafted into Israel is that when the natural branches are trimmed off and cast aside, that would include the Gentiles as well, which makes no sense. The Gentiles are wild branches among the natural ones. Israel does not nourish the other branches. The Root nourishes all the branches, Jew and Gentile.

MM

i know i am ignored but once again the vine = the true Christ we Gentiles are grafted into Christ Israel is still rejecting Jesus

 

[Musicmaster]

When Paul used the olive tree metaphor in Rom. 11 we understand he is following a tradition of linking Israel with the olive tree.

Therefore, the olive tree indicates Israel, and the “wild shoot” represents the Gentiles.

Now, every plant has a "root" and the root of Israel is Jesus.

Additionally, the Gentiles were referred to as originating from a wild olive tree rather than a cultivated, natural one, but the wild branches of which were grafted into the root, or the vine as Jesus stated, which He stated as being Himself.

MM

 

[Major]

Additionally, the Gentiles were referred to as originating from a wild olive tree rather than a cultivated, natural one, but the wild branches of which were grafted into the root, or the vine as Jesus stated, which He stated as being Himself.

MM

Yes sir!

 

[Prim90]

When considering that the early church began with being entirely Jewish but quickly expanded into a multicultural faith. Than it makes no sense as some have proposed and claim from the past few centuries that two seperate compartments of faith remain within in Gods plan .One composing of the Jewish faith Israel. And one composing of the gentle faith the church

 

[Prim90]

So upon thinking more deeper scrutiny of the scriptures the Jewish ones were the first to become Christians. So the question must truely be asked are Jewish ones in.no need of redemption until the Lord returns because God has a different plan for them for past 2000 years not involving the church ? I think Musicmaster summed it up very well in that Christ is the true vine and Jew and gentile alike be the branches. Believing Israel became the church and the Church and church became the Israel of God As the Apostle does clearly write in Galatians 6:16 in reference to the church being the Israel of God

 

[forgiven61]

the only part of israel in the Vine is those that are Christians possibly the remnant. when it says all israel shall be saved this has be a God thing . not all od israel is the true israel ..but one thing for sure how it happens is By Grace

 

[Prim90]

the only part of israel in the Vine is those that are Christians possibly the remnant. when it says all israel shall be saved this has be a God thing . not all od israel is the true israel ..but one thing for sure how it happens is By Grace

I’m sure that all Old Testament believers were sealed under the same promise of redemption of a coming saviour. As to the remnants of the twelve tribes of Israel. Only God knows who they be and they seem to play a prophetic part part at the end of all things . I think Zechariah does prophesy ( And they shall look upon whom they have pierced ) And be saved. But yes there be many who claim to be Jews and are not. Perhaps the infiltration happened under the Hasmoneans , Pharisees, Sadducees and now what are known as Rabbi’s.

 

[forgiven61]

I’m sure that all Old Testament believers were sealed under the same promise of redemption of a coming saviour. As to the remnants of the twelve tribes of Israel. Only God knows who they be and they seem to play a prophetic part part at the end of all things . I think Zechariah does prophesy ( And they shall look upon whom they have pierced ) And be saved. But yes there be many who claim to be Jews and are not. Perhaps the infiltration happened under the Hasmoneans , Pharisees, Sadducees and now what are known as Rabbi’s.

esau had a root of bitterness so i dont think all in o.t was saved.. that is just me. i am looking at this side of the cross grace. the nation Israel is rejecting Jesus much like the rest of the world . i understand the grafting in.. the one part i ponder is 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:6-7

King James Version

​

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 

[Prim90]

esau had a root of bitterness so i dont think all in o.t was saved.. that is just me. i am looking at this side of the cross grace. the nation Israel is rejecting Jesus much like the rest of the world . i understand the grafting in.. the one part i ponder is 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:6-7​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Forgiven I’m sure that would be true certainly not all of Israel was saved as with other nations. We only have to look through the Jewish ones ancient histories. . As to God loving Jacob and hating Esau. Yes in the sense that he wanted Jacob as his choice. You could also say of Ishmael and Isaac. God wanted Isaac as his chosen one and not Ishmael. A personal preference of Gods choice. We only have to look upon Jacob in Genesis 33:1-18 .,With Jacob in fear of his life after finally being confronted by Esau after many years had passed concerning Esau’s lost blessing as the first born . Instead Esau embraced Jacob with brotherly love the bitter memories of the past were forgiven. Esau was was also blessed for a time by God we do find in Genesis 36 of Esau becoming the father of the Edomite kingdom, As also with Ishmael from Abraham becoming the father of many Arab nations. Again it was always a matter of personal choice with God and not so much hatred and personal vendetta. . God simply wanted and chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob as his personal choice.

 

[Musicmaster]

When considering that the early church began with being entirely Jewish but quickly expanded into a multicultural faith. Than it makes no sense as some have proposed and claim from the past few centuries that two seperate compartments of faith remain within in Gods plan .One composing of the Jewish faith Israel. And one composing of the gentle faith the church

I'm not sure who you are claiming that idea originated, but there are Jews and Gentiles alike in the Church, and there is still a "chosen people" consisting of Jews only who will be the central focus of the Lord in the Millennial Kingdom to come. The 144,000 of specifically and separated men among the twelve tribes who will serve in a special way in the Tribulation.

So, yes, there is an amalgam and there is distinctiveness in the expressions of what the Lord will accomplish in these ends times.

MM

 

[Prim90]

I'm not sure who you are claiming that idea originated, but there are Jews and Gentiles alike in the Church, and there is still a "chosen people" consisting of Jews only who will be the central focus of the Lord in the Millennial Kingdom to come. The 144,000 of specifically and separated men among the twelve tribes who will serve in a special way in the Tribulation.

So, yes, there is an amalgam and there is distinctiveness in the expressions of what the Lord will accomplish in these ends times.

MM

MM what I am claiming is that the birth of the church was a purely Jewish affair to begin with . We do read in Matthew 10:5-6 that when Jesus first sent out the 12 apostles. We do read that Christ said (. Go not into the way of the Gentiles, but rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ) it was basically that way throughout the ministry of Christ with a few noted exceptions such as the Samaritan woman and the Roman legionnaire. We find this in many passages of scripture such as Romans 1:16 ( the gospel went to the Jew first and than also to the Greek ) And finally to the climax of Pentecost and the birth of the Church. In Acts chapter 2 we do read that’s Jews from every nation did hear in their own language the wonderful work that God had done and many did believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Often in their thousands. The transition from Judaism to Christianity had now begun . Yes the gentiles were not long coming forth in embracing the Christian faith themselves but unto the Jew it was first given. MM my point is it this if the Jews who first embraced the Christian faith in their thousands which eventually became the universal church of Jew and Gentile alike as one body in Christ. Are we now to accept Judaism as a genuine faith that right up until this very day continues to reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as many have done for the past 2000 yrs. Are we to accept that Judaism remains as a seperate compartment in no need of Christian redemption. ? MM as to the 144000 it is a interesting view point I be looking deeper into that now. I shall I reply to that later. Prim

 

[Prim90]

I'm not sure who you are claiming that idea originated, but there are Jews and Gentiles alike in the Church, and there is still a "chosen people" consisting of Jews only who will be the central focus of the Lord in the Millennial Kingdom to come. The 144,000 of specifically and separated men among the twelve tribes who will serve in a special way in the Tribulation.

So, yes, there is an amalgam and there is distinctiveness in the expressions of what the Lord will accomplish in these ends times.

MM

MM you say the distinctiveness of the 144000 being solely Jewish is certainly correct for they are taken from the 12 tribes of Israel. Rev 7:14 When your referring to seperated men your referring to Rev 14: 4 of them all being virgins. It’s possible. But here’s another take. All believers are viewed spiritually as being chaste virgins and having been presented to Christ as such. 2nd Corinthians 11:2 ( For i am jealous over you with a Godly jealousy: For I espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chate VIRGIN to Christ..MM it’s very possible that the 144000 are to be looked upon in that light . In Rev14:5 they are also seen without fault before God as we all are . In Ephesians 1:4 we are all seen without blame before him in love. In Revelations 7:4 it duly noted that the 12 tribes were still known physically by the early church. Though scattered they were known in those days. Many were now Christians. It was such converts that James writes about in James 1:1 ( James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ , to the Twelve Tribes which be scattered abroad ) Paul does also speak of them in Acts 26:7 ( Unto which promise our Twelve Tribes instantly serving God day and night, hope to come for hopes sake , King Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews) Paul could not write that if he knew not where they were.. so when considering a time period there be options and just not only the futuristic one of being near the end of the world. At least they knew of their locations . We haven’t a clue of where the 12 twelve tribes be today or if then still exit . Only God would fully know today .And finallly MM in my research today. Me did discover this oddity in Rev 14:3-4 for more context, more near the end of v 4. This 144000 Jews are mentioned as being redeemed as the First Fruits unto God.. if the 144000 be futuristic as we zoom up to our present day. Of which some 2000 yrs have come and gone since the writings of St Johns Revelation . THE 144000 WOUD CERTAINLY NOT BE THE FIRST FRUITS THEY WOULD BE THE LAST FRUITS if nearing the end of the world. MM the 144000 could well be referring to the early church which was predominantly Jewish in nature and maybe not a futuristic event at all . Anyway food for thought there be a number traditional interpretation out there to evaluate.. i which you the happy day ahead . PRIM

 

[Musicmaster]

MM my point is it this if the Jews who first embraced the Christian faith in their thousands which eventually became the universal church of Jew and Gentile alike as one body in Christ. Are we now to accept Judaism as a genuine faith that right up until this very day continues to reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as many have done for the past 2000 yrs. Are we to accept that Judaism remains as a seperate compartment in no need of Christian redemption. ? MM as to the 144000 it is a interesting view point I be looking deeper into that now. I shall I reply to that later. Prim

Salvation is of the Jews, and our rejection of Messiah as an ethnic people became a blessing to Gentiles.

When reading Revelation, I became aware of the 24 elders, who are very much attuned to the twelve gates and the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. They represent the Jews of ancient times up to the time of Christ on the cross, and Jews and Gentiles alike after the cross who comprise the Church up to the point of the beginning of the Tribulation. Those who come to faith after the beginning of the Tribulation do not have crowns as to all who were in Christ before the Tribulation.

So, if we dare study the various representations of what it means to talk about who is Israel, seeking to understand what it means for Jews and Gentiles to be grafted in, reading Paul's lengthy dissertation about the subject, we become aware of the fact that what it means to be Israel, in relation to being in Christ, isn't the same thing as becoming a descendent of the man renamed Israel. Does that make sense?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul had a passion for the ethnic people descended from Israel, the man, but because of their rejection, they are not of Israel just because they are physically descended from Israel. That's the point he is making in Romans 9. The grafting in has a meaning that is multifaceted. Gentiles become partakers of the blessings that flowed down from Abraham, just as they are partakers of the inheritance of Christ, just as are the ethnic Jews. Gentiles, through Christ, became grafted in among the natural branches, even though they still remain identified as wild branches after the grafting in. There remains a distinction.

And yet, we are also told this, to the confusion of many:

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, in salvation, there are no distinctions, but in that New Jerusalem, there is no representation of the Gentiles in the construction and naming upon that city.

So, in summary, in one sense, there are no distinctions, and in other perspectives, the distinctives remain forever. The many deliverances the Lord performed for ancient Israel throughout her history were not for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lord's own Name. That theme is repeated many times throughout the prophets, for Israel continuously rebelled, time after time, committing idolatry, adultery, and profaning the name of the Lord in her actions, constantly betraying the obedience to the Law they promised that they would obey.

How wonderful it is that there was a change in priesthood, and therefore a change in the Law.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

I'm not sure who you are claiming that idea originated, but there are Jews and Gentiles alike in the Church, and there is still a "chosen people" consisting of Jews only who will be the central focus of the Lord in the Millennial Kingdom to come. The 144,000 of specifically and separated men among the twelve tribes who will serve in a special way in the Tribulation.

So, yes, there is an amalgam and there is distinctiveness in the expressions of what the Lord will accomplish in these ends times.

MM

MM what I am claiming is that the birth of the church was a purely Jewish affair to begin with . We do read in Matthew 10:5-6 that when Jesus first sent out the 12 apostles. We do read that Christ said (. Go not into the way of the Gentiles, but rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ) it was basically that way throughout the ministry of Christ with a few noted exceptions such as the Samaritan woman and the Roman legionnaire. We find this in many passages of scripture such as Romans 1:16 ( the gospel went to the Jew first and than also to the Greek ) And finally to the climax of Pentecost and the birth of the Church. In Acts chapter 2 we do read that’s Jews from every nation did hear in their own language the wonderful work that God had done and many did believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Often in their thousands. The transition from Judaism to Christianity had now begun . Yes the gentiles were not long coming forth in embracing the Christian faith themselves but unto the Jew it was first given. View attachment 10386MM my point is it this if the Jews who first embraced the Christian faith in their thousands which eventually became the universal church of Jew and Gentile alike as one body in Christ. Are we now to accept Judaism as a genuine faith that right up until this very day continues to reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as many have done for the past 2000 yrs. Are we to accept that Judaism remains as a seperate compartment in no need of Christian redemption. ? MM as to the 144000 it is a interesting view point I be looking deeper into that now. I shall I reply to that later. Prim

MM you say the distinctiveness of the 144000 being solely Jewish is certainly correct for they are taken from the 12 tribes of Israel. Rev 7:14 View attachment 10387 When your referring to seperated men your referring to Rev 14: 4 of them all being virgins. It’s possible. But here’s another take. All believers are viewed spiritually as being chaste virgins and having been presented to Christ as such. 2nd Corinthians 11:2 ( For i am jealous over you with a Godly jealousy: For I espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chate VIRGIN to Christ..MM it’s very possible that the 144000 are to be looked upon in that light . In Rev14:5 they are also seen without fault before God as we all are . In Ephesians 1:4 we are all seen without blame before him in love. View attachment 10387 In Revelations 7:4 it duly noted that the 12 tribes were still known physically by the early church. Though scattered they were known in those days. Many were now Christians. It was such converts that James writes about in James 1:1 ( James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ , to the Twelve Tribes which be scattered abroad ) Paul does also speak of them in Acts 26:7 ( Unto which promise our Twelve Tribes instantly serving God day and night, hope to come for hopes sake , King Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews) Paul could not write that if he knew not where they were.. so when considering a time period there be options and just not only the futuristic one of being near the end of the world. At least they knew of their locations . We haven’t a clue of where the 12 twelve tribes be today or if then still exit . Only God would fully know today View attachment 10387.And finallly MM in my research today. Me did discover this oddity in Rev 14:3-4 for more context, more near the end of v 4. This 144000 Jews are mentioned as being redeemed as the First Fruits unto God.. if the 144000 be futuristic as we zoom up to our present day. Of which some 2000 yrs have come and gone since the writings of St Johns Revelation . THE 144000 WOUD CERTAINLY NOT BE THE FIRST FRUITS THEY WOULD BE THE LAST FRUITS if nearing the end of the world. MM the 144000 could well be referring to the early church which was predominantly Jewish in nature and maybe not a futuristic event at all . Anyway food for thought there be a number traditional interpretation out there to evaluate.. i which you the happy day ahead . PRIM

Salvation is of the Jews, and our rejection of Messiah as an ethnic people became a blessing to Gentiles.

When reading Revelation, I became aware of the 24 elders, who are very much attuned to the twelve gates and the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. They represent the Jews of ancient times up to the time of Christ on the cross, and Jews and Gentiles alike after the cross who comprise the Church up to the point of the beginning of the Tribulation. Those who come to faith after the beginning of the Tribulation do not have crowns as to all who were in Christ before the Tribulation.

So, if we dare study the various representations of what it means to talk about who is Israel, seeking to understand what it means for Jews and Gentiles to be grafted in, reading Paul's lengthy dissertation about the subject, we become aware of the fact that what it means to be Israel, in relation to being in Christ, isn't the same thing as becoming a descendent of the man renamed Israel. Does that make sense?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul had a passion for the ethnic people descended from Israel, the man, but because of their rejection, they are not of Israel just because they are physically descended from Israel. That's the point he is making in Romans 9. The grafting in has a meaning that is multifaceted. Gentiles become partakers of the blessings that flowed down from Abraham, just as they are partakers of the inheritance of Christ, just as are the ethnic Jews. Gentiles, through Christ, became grafted in among the natural branches, even though they still remain identified as wild branches after the grafting in. There remains a distinction.

And yet, we are also told this, to the confusion of many:

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, in salvation, there are no distinctions, but in that New Jerusalem, there is no representation of the Gentiles in the construction and naming upon that city.

So, in summary, in one sense, there are no distinctions, and in other perspectives, the distinctives remain forever. The many deliverances the Lord performed for ancient Israel throughout her history were not for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lord's own Name. That theme is repeated many times throughout the prophets, for Israel continuously rebelled, time after time, committing idolatry, adultery, and profaning the name of the Lord in her actions, constantly betraying the obedience to the Law they promised that they would obey.

How wonderful it is that there was a change in priesthood, and therefore a change in the Law.

MM

Hello Prim90 and Musicmaster;

I have been following Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean? and came across your posts# 14, 15, 16 and 17.

As I'm reading your posts I don't feel you are answering each other's posts, instead, you both continue to offer long explanations of grafting between Jews and Gentiles. How does the 144,000 tie in specifically to this discussion?

I have a question for sake of staying on topic, I'm not a Jew, so in these times, am I identified as a Gentile? How does this impact my proclamation as a Christian?

I have my observant side but I'm also participating in the fellowship as a constructive reader.

Prim90, why do your posts have large pink blocks? What does that mean, sister?

MM, after stating the many points in your topic, is there a summation?

God bless you both and thank you for sharing.

Bob

 

[Major]

Salvation is of the Jews, and our rejection of Messiah as an ethnic people became a blessing to Gentiles.

When reading Revelation, I became aware of the 24 elders, who are very much attuned to the twelve gates and the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. They represent the Jews of ancient times up to the time of Christ on the cross, and Jews and Gentiles alike after the cross who comprise the Church up to the point of the beginning of the Tribulation. Those who come to faith after the beginning of the Tribulation do not have crowns as to all who were in Christ before the Tribulation.

So, if we dare study the various representations of what it means to talk about who is Israel, seeking to understand what it means for Jews and Gentiles to be grafted in, reading Paul's lengthy dissertation about the subject, we become aware of the fact that what it means to be Israel, in relation to being in Christ, isn't the same thing as becoming a descendent of the man renamed Israel. Does that make sense?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul had a passion for the ethnic people descended from Israel, the man, but because of their rejection, they are not of Israel just because they are physically descended from Israel. That's the point he is making in Romans 9. The grafting in has a meaning that is multifaceted. Gentiles become partakers of the blessings that flowed down from Abraham, just as they are partakers of the inheritance of Christ, just as are the ethnic Jews. Gentiles, through Christ, became grafted in among the natural branches, even though they still remain identified as wild branches after the grafting in. There remains a distinction.

And yet, we are also told this, to the confusion of many:

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, in salvation, there are no distinctions, but in that New Jerusalem, there is no representation of the Gentiles in the construction and naming upon that city.

So, in summary, in one sense, there are no distinctions, and in other perspectives, the distinctives remain forever. The many deliverances the Lord performed for ancient Israel throughout her history were not for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lord's own Name. That theme is repeated many times throughout the prophets, for Israel continuously rebelled, time after time, committing idolatry, adultery, and profaning the name of the Lord in her actions, constantly betraying the obedience to the Law they promised that they would obey.

How wonderful it is that there was a change in priesthood, and therefore a change in the Law.

MM

I am not sure that I know of anyone who is more qualified to have this discussion than YOU MM!

Thank you for your Biblical and Christian input!!!

So then, Yes.........Jesus came to seek and save the house of Israel! The blessing of HIs rejection by those He came to save is that now we, Gentiles can be saved!!!

So, God took what was bad and made it good.

Romans 8:28.........
"ALL things work for good for them who are called by God"!

 

[Major]

Hello Prim90 and Musicmaster;

I have been following Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean? and came across your posts# 14, 15, 16 and 17.

As I'm reading your posts I don't feel you are answering each other's post, instead, you both continue to offer long explanations of grafting between Jews and Gentiles. How does the 144,000 tie in specifically to this discussion?

I have a question for sake of staying on topic, I'm not a Jew, so in these times, am I identified as a Gentile? How does this impact my proclamation as a Christian?

I have my observant side but I'm also participating in the fellowship as a constructive reader.

Prim90, why do your posts have large pink blocks? What does that mean, sister?

MM, after stating the many points in your topic, is there a summation?

God bless you both and thank you for sharing.

Bob

The 144 K will be Jewish, virgin men. They will be saved right after the Rapture by the preaching of Two Jewish Rabies in Jerusalem.

This is important to grasp because at that time there will be NO Church on the earth.

It has been prophesied in the Bible that Israel would repent and turn to Christ in Zech. 12:10 and Romans 11:25-27, and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” as seen in Rev. 14:4 of that redeemed Israel.

By “Israel” Paul means ethnic Israelites (Jews). For Paul the world was divided into two types of people: Israel and everybody else (Gentiles). And according to Paul, Israel comprises the people God set apart for himself, made promises to, established covenants with, and entrusted with his law (Rom. 9:1–5). They are Abraham’s descendants—not every last one, but those freely chosen by God’s mercy, like Isaac and Jacob (Rom. 9:6–13), and Paul (Rom. 11:1).

That does NOT mean that every person in Israel will be saved!!!!

Eventually all Israel–both Jewish remnant and hardened majority–will be saved (though see Paul’s clarifying remarks in Romans 9:6, when he basically says, “Yes, yes…. You’ve got the math right. Just remember, it won’t include every member of that hardened majority.”

The Church is the intended Bride of Christ and the 144 K and all who are saved after the Rapture are not part of the Church.

The coming great Revival in the last 7 years will primarily be Jews and those who have never heard the gospel.

Contextually, 2 Thess. 2: 10-12 is speaking of the coming A/C and it seems to confirm this when we read.............
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

In other words, IF a man has read the gospel and not made a choice for Jesus Christ today, he will not then be able to do so after the Rapture! He will believe the lie of Satan.

Somewhere, someplace there is that ONE person who God has ordained to be saved and when that happens......It is over and we who are believers go home!