God's Intervention? Intervening Power?

I've been hearing the term "deist". I guess I'm going to have to look that up as I have no idea what that is.

LearningToLetGo You bring up the concept of God being the architect of evil. I do not understand what
would bring someone to this conclusion in light of those who believe that God is ever present and aware of all events
in His creation at all times.
( as you phrase it ). Could you elaborate on your thoughts?

I know you did not tag me with your comment, but I am simply curious to understand what YOU personally believe about
this topic.

*note... If I'm off topic by asking this question then I trust that someone will intervene. HA. I know the topic is God's intervention
and NOT Did God create evil?
 
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I've been hearing the term "deist". I guess I'm going to have to look that up as I have no idea what that is.

LearningToLetGo You bring up the concept of God being the architect of evil. I do not understand what
would bring someone to this conclusion in light of those who believe that God is ever present and aware of all events
in His creation at all times.
( as you phrase it ). Could you elaborate on your thoughts?

I know you did not tag me with your comment, but I am simply curious to understand what YOU personally believe about
this topic.

*note... If I'm off topic by asking this question then I trust that someone will intervene. HA. I know the topic is God's intervention
and NOT Did God create evil?
deist

noun​

  1. One who believes in the existence of a personal God, but in few or none of the more special doctrines of the Christian religion; one who holds to some of the more general propositions of the Christian faith concerning the Deity, but denies revelation and the authority of the church.
  2. One who holds the opinion that there is a God, but no divine providence governing the affairs of men; one who holds that, God is not only distinct from the world, but also separated from it
 
forgiven61 Hello to you. Thank you for the definition. It has left me more confused than before however. HA.
I will have to do a bit of research. Point number 1 is rather complex.

* I will do my own research of the term "deist" to ensure that I do not derail this thread.
 
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forgiven61 Hello to you. Thank you for the definition. It has left me more confused than before however. HA.
I will have to do a bit of research. Point number 1 is rather complex.

* I will do my own research of the term "deist" to ensure that I do not derail this thread.
you cant derail a thread like this.. no matter the answer they still want prof
 
@LearningToLetGo You bring up the concept of God being the architect of evil. I do not understand what
would bring someone to this conclusion in light of those who believe that God is ever present and aware of all events
in His creation at all times.
( as you phrase it ). Could you elaborate on your thoughts?
Simply being aware of all events at all times is not the same as being in control of all events at all time.

For example: sitting passenger in a driving car, one is aware of all events on the road, but this is not the same as driving the vehicle.

Using this analogy, if god is actively driving creation at all times then he is implicitly responsible for all things, including evil. Returning back to the Deists point of view (the "clockwork" creation point of view), if God created the framework for the universe and set it in motion and is watching it unfold on its own -- perhaps periodically intervening here and there -- then he's not responsible for the creation of evil. In that case, evil is a side-effect of the gears of creation mindlessly grinding away and occasionally catching sentient beings such as us in the works.

We can ask whether a good and loving God would create a mindless machine and place us inside it. The thesis of the OP seems to be no, he would not. However, not everyone agrees so frankly we don't know the details. Personally, I think the reality is beyond human expression. Such questions are fun to ponder but that's about all.
 
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if god is actively driving creation at all times then he is implicitly responsible for all things, including evil.
Hello LearningToLetGo . Thank you for your answer. I looked up what the word Deist means.
I do not agree with any of the theory behind this belief, therefore I will not comment on a point
of view that comes from that mind-set.

I honestly do not know how to respond to what you have written as I do not want to disrespect ANYONE
or enter into a debate.

I think it is time for me to graciously bow out of this conversation. I have said much and have made my point.
 
You don't need to worry about that. I'm not positing a point of view, but rather listing the arguments as I see them.
and I am most sensitive to people's right to believe what they believe. I had never heard of the term Deist until
this week, and although I realize I cannot possibly acquire any kind of understanding by reading an article
that briefly defines the "meaning of"... my mind is framed in such a way where I am not able to partake in these
doctrinal "what if" type discussions. I got lost somewhere in this thread. It's all good. Bless you.
 
I suppose I am one of those who believe that "Intervention is a part of God's very nature based upon His grace and mercy."
It is how I live my life. I depend on the complete assurance that God will care for all my needs as well as the needs of all His children.
This does not "get me off the hook" so to speak with regards to praying and seeking a deeper relationship with God, however, I am
fully content with my total dependence upon HIM.

Like you, I have no doubts that the Lord is the only One upon whom we can possibly rely and trust. I so appreciate the challenging thoughts. It all helps me for better formulate descriptors and overall analysis for better wording on how to describe an understanding for the Lord's ways in how He deals with His creation and His people within this creation.

I believe I was divinely "plucked/extracted" from a situation that ( had I remained in ) would have caused absolute devastation for me.
I believe that God intervened in housing for me in the form of allowing me to return to my prior residence on the lake. My apartment that
I left for 8 months was FREE for me to return to. There is no way that should have happened but it did.
I believe that God intervened with my heart to help me accept a heart-breaking situation that would NORMALLY have caused me deep despair.
I believe that INTERVENTION is as FLUID and ALIVE as God Himself.. and I also believe that a majority of the time we don't even see or feel it.

All of this had me giving thanks unto the Lord for all His provisions in your life.

The topic of Godly protection from the enemy is something that happens moment to moment. The warfare that occurs over God's children is so fierce and violent, yet we as Christians are able to connect with God in such a way that we are given PERFECT PEACE.

This is another avenue for this discussion that I will address further down.

I suppose I could spend all day digging deeper and seeking MORE. If I look at my situation today, I would tell you that my spiritual health is the BEST it's ever been because of the recent sufferings I have had to undergo. My life ebbs and flows like the tide. Inclusive in this are the SEASONS that we all go through. God's intervention is ALWAYS and CONSTANTLY at work.

Amen. You're living the reality resulting from the promise for how ALL things work for good to those who love God and are called according to His promise.

I stated to you earlier that I don't ask God for many things. It's because I have learned to live contently with what I have and where I'm at. My prayers are mostly for others. As far as Intersession goes, I am not gifted with "standing in the gap" for things. I believe this is a gift and I don't think ALL have it.

When you pray for others, you're brandishing the greatest weapon available to any if us for standing in the gap.

What I do practice on a constant basis is WORSHIP. It's my life. I am constantly in AWE of GOD. I'm not just saying that because it sounds good. I am literally like a kid in a candy store. I am fully AWARE that God is MAGNIFICENT. This is something that seems to have been gifted to me after my healing in the summer of 2021. I call it a child-like wonder. I'm not sure what to call it... but I am filled with JOY to overflowing... and so my life is simply a SONG of LOVE to the GOOD SHEPHERD who rescued me from the fowler's snare. There is NO striving when one is in a position of gratitude and thanksgiving.

I've taught for years that the words Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well are words that so few ever understand these days. When He stated that the only worship acceptable before the Father in that day of which He spoke, He stated that it would be don in "spirit and in truth." Those are words pointing to a ways of life, not some ritualistic nonsense that still buzzes around inside the dead walls of buildings fashioned by the hands of men. Those words describe a way of life to be lived daily, moment to moment. That is the ONLY means by which our worship becomes something ALIVE, not predicated upon the shed blood of dead animals at a temple, or dead, ritualistic rhetoric, incantations and actions.

That relates directly to this topic, in that worship and praise (which are not the same thing) are what are reactionary in this world; in how we react to the things of God in our daily lives. Worship is a way of life that should never cease at any time in any given moment of our day. Living lives of worship is a part of what Paul addressed when he spoke of such things as the need for us to "pray without ceasing."

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

And again... the words have failed me.

I absolutely understand the invitation to dig deeper. I already shared with you that you have challenged me to do just that... however there is a peace that comes with that... It's like an invitation to go to a fancy dinner. WE dress up... and we anticipate something good. I believe knowledge is for the GOOD of us. However... when it turns into a TASK or CHORE... then it loses it's beauty and becomes simply an obligation.

Amen.

I have truly enjoyed our conversations... and your gift of music is WOW just WOW. I feel your deep urgency to share and challenge others, but I also feel that perhaps what YOU are called to study and do is not something that everyone else can handle to the same degree.

Given that music is God's creation, He does indeed receive from me the praise for the gits He gives to us.

When it comes to challenge to others for the deeper things of the Lord and His word, I like to reiterate that going to the depths for any one of us, regardless of gifting, intelligence or anything else, it all starts with the Lord leading each and every one of us to those depths. None of us gets there by ourselves.

When I say I accept your challenge to dig deeper... for me that simply means taking quiet time to BE STILL and KNOW that HE is GOD. That is my answer to EVERYTHING. I don't know what a normal Christian life SHOULD look like. I only know that my life was filled with deep sorrow and despair for DECADES upon DECADES and now... since my healing of depression ( summer of 2021 ) I am FILLED to overflowing with JOY.

Being still. Yes. That's the key. We don't hear from the Lord the deeper things when we hustling and bustling through life's many demands. That's why the Lord's instructions mean what they say when He clearly stated:

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I don't routinely seek to pray in the company of others, lusting to hear their prayers and how eloquently THEY pray, nor to impress them with the things I can come up with. No. When it comes to prayer, it's strictly between the Lord and myself, and in those moments He speaks to us in ways that are beyond words. Even though He knows what we are going to pray before we even utter a word, THAT is the essence of relationship when we intentionally go before Him, and pour out our hearts to Him. Public prayer...well, that's fine and dandy for others, but for me, I seek to do exactly what He commanded. It's not reactionary, it's not interventive, it's not even doing anything at all apart from focusing our minds and hearts upon He alone who has already caused ALL things to work for our good who love Him, both past and future.

You see, when He promised in His word that all things work for good to all who love Him, I'm not seeing that as a promise that He's going to apply Himself even more to having to do more and more reactionary intervention. In other words, when it comes to the Power of His Words, that Power is more real than this keyboard I'm using to enter these words. He spoke the universe and the stars into existence rather than grinding away in some heavenly machine that cranked out physical space, time and substance until the volume of the universe and the matter within it was at the level of His design. The Power behind His words is what commands all from before the beginning:

Luke 4:32, 36
32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. ...
36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word [is] this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.

2 Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Amen, and amen! He doesn't labor with sweat on His brow (so to speak). Yes, He works unto this very day, as Jesus indicated to the complaining Pharisees, but the idea that it was what we, in our fallen state, tend to think, no.

My prime motivation to all of this is to try and help others to see beyond the mere assumptions our little minds tend to fixate upon when reading the Bible, or receiving something from the Lord in prayer. The Hollywoodesque tendencies in our thinking to see even the Lord and His ways of dealing with mankind, that is one of many corrections I am trying to get across in all this. The enemy makes use of our assumptions, to apply them against us to the point that we no longer recognize the true Lord and God of our salvation. Satan operates on the basis of the subtle and mundane so as to not pique our senses to the point of alarm and defensiveness. Does that make sense?

I think there is something to be said about a soul who DELIGHTS in simplicity. That little black sheep that you see in my avatar. That is me... He rescued me... He loves me... He sings over me... He left the flock to come find me. He snatched me from the enemy and said SHE IS MINE. I don't know what more I can offer than my total surrender and praise. I believe this is what He desires from me.

You are so gifted MM. You have a deep deep desire to pull closer to God and that is indeed most pleasing to HIM.

It is to the Lord that all the glory and praise rests. Life would be not at all worth living if it were not for the Lord and the Power of His Words toward us. The promises He has made toward us are absolutely empowered in all of Heaven and creation, and nothing can negate what He has already designed into all our lives.

Thank you again for your response. It pushes us all to greater depths.

MM
 
...if God is actively part of every part and parcel of all events in his creation at all times, as it seemed you suggested earlier in this thread, then God is indeed the architect of evil since it exists at his explicit command. Of course, one could always claim that what we consider evil is not truly evil and we are mistaken, but tell that to those who suffer.

So we're in a bit of a bind.

Uh, oh. I did hesitate to bring up Deist thinking because I suspected it would elicit some posts along that line.

So, diving headfirst into this swim lane, I will point back before the very beginning. We are told that Christ was slain from the foundations of the world. That was done on the basis of the Lord's "foreknowledge." That doesn't imply that He created and orchestrated evil. The confining box of the scenario you are suggesting isn't consistent with the reality.

Recall when I stated that the Lord intentionally placed within the garden that one tree that was the focus of the enticements of the serpent. Evil is what happened, and it all happened within the creative design of the Lord. Yes, He knew Lucifer was going to become prideful. He did not induce that pride, but rather created him with the ability to go in that direction, and Lucifer did exactly what the Lord knew he would do.

The same was in that garden. Had the Lord intended for evil to not ever have a play in creation, that tree and that serpent would not have been there.

Most importantly in all this, however, is that the Lord took upon Himself the full responsibility for the evil that resulted all the way from the way that He created the angels, and the ultimate fall of man, and He did just that by providing a way of escape from the penalty of sin. Jesus stated to the earthly powers at that time that they could not even touch Him except that it was in the will of the Father.

So, anyone who would lay at the feet of the Lord the blame for the existence of evil, no. That would give to us a legal claim against the guilt of sin in the economy of God's perfect justice. With the perfect provision for the penalty of sin that came about by the choices within creatures of His creation, we are then held rightfully guilty for any and all sin we choose to not lay upon Christ for the payment of the penalty.

Does that make better sense?

So, the Lord's way of our escape from the penalty of our sins is not something that He has to show up and infuse into us daily. Our salvation is completed work from before the foundations of the world. Some believe He is re-sacrificed daily through magical incantations and rituals as a reactionary intervention, but that is not what He teaches us in His word. It was done from before the world ever was. The events leading up to the crucifixion were orchestrated from before the foundations of the world.

MM
 
Like you, I have no doubts that the Lord is the only One upon whom we can possibly rely and trust. I so appreciate the challenging thoughts. It all helps me for better formulate descriptors and overall analysis for better wording on how to describe an understanding for the Lord's ways in how He deals with His creation and His people within this creation.



All of this had me giving thanks unto the Lord for all His provisions in your life.



This is another avenue for this discussion that I will address further down.



Amen. You're living the reality resulting from the promise for how ALL things work for good to those who love God and are called according to His promise.



When you pray for others, you're brandishing the greatest weapon available to any if us for standing in the gap.



I've taught for years that the words Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well are words that so few ever understand these days. When He stated that the only worship acceptable before the Father in that day of which He spoke, He stated that it would be don in "spirit and in truth." Those are words pointing to a ways of life, not some ritualistic nonsense that still buzzes around inside the dead walls of buildings fashioned by the hands of men. Those words describe a way of life to be lived daily, moment to moment. That is the ONLY means by which our worship becomes something ALIVE, not predicated upon the shed blood of dead animals at a temple, or dead, ritualistic rhetoric, incantations and actions.

That relates directly to this topic, in that worship and praise (which are not the same thing) are what are reactionary in this world; in how we react to the things of God in our daily lives. Worship is a way of life that should never cease at any time in any given moment of our day. Living lives of worship is a part of what Paul addressed when he spoke of such things as the need for us to "pray without ceasing."

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.



Amen.



Given that music is God's creation, He does indeed receive from me the praise for the gits He gives to us.

When it comes to challenge to others for the deeper things of the Lord and His word, I like to reiterate that going to the depths for any one of us, regardless of gifting, intelligence or anything else, it all starts with the Lord leading each and every one of us to those depths. None of us gets there by ourselves.



Being still. Yes. That's the key. We don't hear from the Lord the deeper things when we hustling and bustling through life's many demands. That's why the Lord's instructions mean what they say when He clearly stated:

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I don't routinely seek to pray in the company of others, lusting to hear their prayers and how eloquently THEY pray, nor to impress them with the things I can come up with. No. When it comes to prayer, it's strictly between the Lord and myself, and in those moments He speaks to us in ways that are beyond words. Even though He knows what we are going to pray before we even utter a word, THAT is the essence of relationship when we intentionally go before Him, and pour out our hearts to Him. Public prayer...well, that's fine and dandy for others, but for me, I seek to do exactly what He commanded. It's not reactionary, it's not interventive, it's not even doing anything at all apart from focusing our minds and hearts upon He alone who has already caused ALL things to work for our good who love Him, both past and future.

You see, when He promised in His word that all things work for good to all who love Him, I'm not seeing that as a promise that He's going to apply Himself even more to having to do more and more reactionary intervention. In other words, when it comes to the Power of His Words, that Power is more real than this keyboard I'm using to enter these words. He spoke the universe and the stars into existence rather than grinding away in some heavenly machine that cranked out physical space, time and substance until the volume of the universe and the matter within it was at the level of His design. The Power behind His words is what commands all from before the beginning:

Luke 4:32, 36
32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. ...
36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word [is] this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.

2 Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Amen, and amen! He doesn't labor with sweat on His brow (so to speak). Yes, He works unto this very day, as Jesus indicated to the complaining Pharisees, but the idea that it was what we, in our fallen state, tend to think, no.

My prime motivation to all of this is to try and help others to see beyond the mere assumptions our little minds tend to fixate upon when reading the Bible, or receiving something from the Lord in prayer. The Hollywoodesque tendencies in our thinking to see even the Lord and His ways of dealing with mankind, that is one of many corrections I am trying to get across in all this. The enemy makes use of our assumptions, to apply them against us to the point that we no longer recognize the true Lord and God of our salvation. Satan operates on the basis of the subtle and mundane so as to not pique our senses to the point of alarm and defensiveness. Does that make sense?



It is to the Lord that all the glory and praise rests. Life would be not at all worth living if it were not for the Lord and the Power of His Words toward us. The promises He has made toward us are absolutely empowered in all of Heaven and creation, and nothing can negate what He has already designed into all our lives.

Thank you again for your response. It pushes us all to greater depths.

MM
Uh, oh. I did hesitate to bring up Deist thinking because I suspected it would elicit some posts along that line.

So, diving headfirst into this swim lane, I will point back before the very beginning. We are told that Christ was slain from the foundations of the world. That was done on the basis of the Lord's "foreknowledge." That doesn't imply that He created and orchestrated evil. The confining box of the scenario you are suggesting isn't consistent with the reality.

Recall when I stated that the Lord intentionally placed within the garden that one tree that was the focus of the enticements of the serpent. Evil is what happened, and it all happened within the creative design of the Lord. Yes, He knew Lucifer was going to become prideful. He did not induce that pride, but rather created him with the ability to go in that direction, and Lucifer did exactly what the Lord knew he would do.

The same was in that garden. Had the Lord intended for evil to not ever have a play in creation, that tree and that serpent would not have been there.

Most importantly in all this, however, is that the Lord took upon Himself the full responsibility for the evil that resulted all the way from the way that He created the angels, and the ultimate fall of man, and He did just that by providing a way of escape from the penalty of sin. Jesus stated to the earthly powers at that time that they could not even touch Him except that it was in the will of the Father.

So, anyone who would lay at the feet of the Lord the blame for the existence of evil, no. That would give to us a legal claim against the guilt of sin in the economy of God's perfect justice. With the perfect provision for the penalty of sin that came about by the choices within creatures of His creation, we are then held rightfully guilty for any and all sin we choose to not lay upon Christ for the payment of the penalty.

Does that make better sense?

So, the Lord's way of our escape from the penalty of our sins is not something that He has to show up and infuse into us daily. Our salvation is completed work from before the foundations of the world. Some believe He is re-sacrificed daily through magical incantations and rituals as a reactionary intervention, but that is not what He teaches us in His word. It was done from before the world ever was. The events leading up to the crucifixion were orchestrated from before the foundations of the world.

MM

Hello Musicmaster;

Thank you for outlining and responding to the other's posts. This has been a constructive and learning topic.

God bless you, brother.
 
Musicmaster Thank you for your heart-felt response to my earlier post. As I stated... I somehow got lost in the middle of it all.
My mind is unable to multi-task it seems. I feel that I have contributed as much as I am capable of and so as stated earlier, I am
going to graciously walk away. This has been a very deep and thought-provoking thread. I am so impressed with how people
communicate with such respect for each other. I hope this topic continues.
 
Recall when I stated that the Lord intentionally placed within the garden that one tree that was the focus of the enticements of the serpent. Evil is what happened, and it all happened within the creative design of the Lord. Yes, He knew Lucifer was going to become prideful. He did not induce that pride, but rather created him with the ability to go in that direction, and Lucifer did exactly what the Lord knew he would do.
Isn't this like saying I didn't break the vase, I just placed it in the middle of the preschool playground, knowing full well the children would break it?

So, anyone who would lay at the feet of the Lord the blame for the existence of evil, no. That would give to us a legal claim against the guilt of sin in the economy of God's perfect justice. With the perfect provision for the penalty of sin that came about by the choices within creatures of His creation, we are then held rightfully guilty for any and all sin we choose to not lay upon Christ for the payment of the penalty.

Does that make better sense?
I did say it was a conundrum. As I see it, we can't reason our way out of this predicament. Human logic simply does not work when imagining the reasoning of God.
 
Isn't this like saying I didn't break the vase, I just placed it in the middle of the preschool playground, knowing full well the children would break it?

Exactly. Yes.

I did say it was a conundrum. As I see it, we can't reason our way out of this predicament. Human logic simply does not work when imagining the reasoning of God.

Except that the Lord invites us to come before Him, and reason with Him. That's relationship.

MM
 
Musicmaster Thank you for your heart-felt response to my earlier post. As I stated... I somehow got lost in the middle of it all.
My mind is unable to multi-task it seems. I feel that I have contributed as much as I am capable of and so as stated earlier, I am
going to graciously walk away. This has been a very deep and thought-provoking thread. I am so impressed with how people
communicate with such respect for each other. I hope this topic continues.

Please don't give up on me yet. If there's something you don't understand, then please just ask. That's what we're all here for (ending with a preposition). :)

MM
 
STAFF COMMENT: We have noticed recently that extremely long posts are being offered by some members. One in particular in this thread is over 32 paragraphs long. We understand that details and explanations can run on and on...

HOWEVER, please keep in mind that there are members at CFS that may have vision issues and reading that much in any one post is nearly impossible for some persons.

Please CONDENSE posts into a reasonable length as a courtesy to ALL members here at CFS.



`
 
I am not going to make a separate thread to share a few thoughts. I am well aware that I am off topic here, however I believe kindness
is never off topic.

I would like to re-iterate that I am deeply moved by the people here at this forum. I have come here at a most painful time in my journey... and I have shared my heart openly and honestly. I have been received with such gentleness and sincere caring.

If I ever state that I need to walk away from a conversation, it is simply because I am either overwhelmed by the depth of discussion OR I don't have anything more to add.

It is so refreshing to see Christians communicating in a way that would invite other's thoughts to the platform. Thank you to ALL for welcoming me and allowing me to share my little thoughts.

Most tenderly, In Awe of Him
 
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