Doctrine of Children?

[bobinfaith]

However, for those who cannot go through such a process because of their limited mental faculties, or their age, the character of God suggests that He would make provision for them. As a result, while we recognize that saved people have an understanding of sin, repentance, redemption through Christ, and eternal life, we also recognize that those of limited mental capacity—such as infants and individuals who are mentally disabled—may be saved by grace without such understanding.

There are somethings that we just will never know till we get to heaven. I have found it best to leave those things in the closest lest they drive you bonckers!

Hello Major;

Thank you, brother. I feel you answered my question to your previous post. We're on the same page and will leave it at that.

I thinks it's great you and your wife can let go and move on. I was making a point in this topic. Unfortunately, many believers cannot get past struggles and hold it inside. I'm still listening to others that need to release their past sufferings. By the grace of God in time many have accepted the things they couldn't control or change, have gone forward with new things and have a sense of peace.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Via dolarossa]

Only One verse that may speak to the issue indirectly is Romans 1:20.......
“Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

Thankyou.
This is exactly what I am teaching my 5 year old granddaughter this week.. I ask her to look at how trees grow and what comes from them. And how we enjoy what comes from them. And then explain to her that is what God wants from us in order to be like him. To leave a legacy of good fruit for others so they will be better off! It’s simple enough for a child to understand and today she thinks God is living inside her which I was pleased to hear.

 

[Major]

Hello Major;

Thank you, brother. I feel you answered my question to your previous post. We're on the same page and will leave it at that.

I thinks it's great you and your wife can let go and move on. I was making a point in this topic. Unfortunately, many believers cannot get past struggles and hold it inside. I'm still listening to others that need to release their past sufferings. By the grace of God in time many have accepted the things they couldn't control or change, have gone forward with new things and have a sense of peace.

God bless you, brother.

YEs sir. Unfortunately, I have seen this take people to the depths of depression and then their lives. Very sad!

We have been blessed because we believed that those children are safe with God.

 

[Major]

This is a very good point. Is there a line you won't cross when serving God, and if there is a line are you truly God's? I think back to Abram who was willing to slaughter his own son at God's command. Perhaps this deserves its own thread...

I think that it does!

I will be glad to join in.

I am glad I am not Abraham!!! But then, I have not seen and experienced what He did.

 

[Major]

There is a glaring difference between what I'm proposing, and what you call hyper-Calvinism.

I stated, as a possibility, that the babies who, in life, would have rejected Christ, is a matter of foreknowledge that we cannot comprehend nor experience in this life, which is antithetical to the extremes of Calvinism. They do not acknowledge the foreknowledge of God...at least, not in the sense as I have proposed it.

MM

Maybe I did not understand.

John Calvin wrote.........
""We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death."

 

[Musicmaster]

Maybe I did not understand.

John Calvin wrote.........
""We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death."

Having read Institutes, I gleaned from his writing that he did not at all believe what the "hyper-Calvinists" demand to be his original thinking. Those who say that he did believe that are generally those who have never studied his works.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

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With our sins blotted out, we will be judged on the life we live.
.

Yes. Our rewards will be based upon that.

MM

 

[Major]

.
By the way, both those scriptures require action from us in disobedience to God's law.

Babies! I don't think so. Later on, yes.
.

NO Robin they do not!

You have not been taught that but what matters in life is what the Scriptures actually. You said the very same thin on another thread!

The Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God in John 3:3.

The Scriptures are clear as we seen in Romans 5:12........
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people”.

Every single human being was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. Romans 5:18.......
“One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people”.

We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.

Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. in Proverbs 22:15.....
“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child”.

David says in Psalms 51:3.......
“Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” .

Then in Psalms 58:3.....
“Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies”.

Before we were saved Ephesians 2:3 says that ......“we were by nature deserving of wrath”.
Note that we deserved God’s wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.

We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh:
Romans 8:8......
"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God”.

We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life according to Ephesians 2:1. We lack any inherent spiritual good.

Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adam’s family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into God’s family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that “to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent . . . but born of God” in John 1:12-13.

Now we all know that you are of the Charismatic Pentacostal faith. Allow me to me clear!!!!! You are welcome to follow your denomination teaching or you can follow the Word of God. I will not argue with anyone over this.

 

[Major]

We know that.

RED. A sinner AFTER disobeying God.
.

No Robin.

It seems to me that You do not understand the Scriptures or maybe you have not done the actual study of them.
Too often, we rely soley on our denominational teachers to teach us, but if their teaching is flawed, so then will be your understanding.

Take the time to read and then study, consider some Bible commentaries that are not Pentacostal Holiness and see what they say.

Romans 5:12.........
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Is there any thing there that says.......AFTER disobeying God????

Can you post ONE Scripture that says........."We are sinners AFTER we disobey God"!
Proverbs 22:15 says....... “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.”
Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”

I encourage you to read the work by Jonathan Edwards, in his classic "The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended,".
There he remarks that on this verse: ....
“The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”

Thus, it can not be argued that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1–3:.............
"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Is that exactly and accurately stated by God??????

Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ.......
“you were dead in your trespasses . . . in which you formerly walked”.

Obviously and clearly God is telling you and all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners from birth!

 

[Major]

Having read Institutes, I gleaned from his writing that he did not at all believe what the "hyper-Calvinists" demand to be his original thinking. Those who say that he did believe that are generally those who have never studied his works.

MM

MM........we can not argue his literal words..........." except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death."

It is what it is. Now we can making observations and hab=ve opinion and I respect all of that, but what is said is said.

 

[Major]

.
With our sins blotted out, we will be judged on the life we live.
.

In Psalm 14:2–3 we read: .........
“The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: “they have all turned aside . . . there is no one who does good.”

Job 15:14 similarly declares that sinfulness is a property of humanity:.........
“What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?”
Verses 15–16 then speak of the human race as a whole in shocking terms expressing our general corruption:.........
“Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!”

Jeremiah 17:9 says that .........
“the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?”

This Scripture without a doubt validate original sin — wickedness is a property of the human heart.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: “. . . the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives.” Again, the human heart is sinful, and therefore all humans are sinful.

These texts clearly say, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born corrupt — which means we are born with original sin and that is exactly what the Scripture in fact do say!!!!!

One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions.
All of those people are sinful, but this doesn’t mean that infants are. That seems to be where you are coming from.

This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed.
First, the texts do not restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall.

Second, as the book from Jonathan Edwards pointed out, “. . . this would not alter the case. . . . For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature.”

In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.

 

[Major]

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To be a sinner, we need to have sinned. Please tell me which of the Ten Commandments a baby has broken.
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NO Robin.

By your question it is obviouse that you have totally rejected the Scriptures presented to you that says we are born in sin!
I have to ask you.....on what basis do you reject the Word of God?

Your question is a "Straw man" question.

FYI........... A straw man argument is a type of red herring, an argument meant to cause confusion, one that is deliberately misleading and irrelevant to the actual issue at hand. A red herring is a diversionary tactic that is used to distract one away from the actual issue being debated, and the straw man is one method of doing this.

However, just to satisfy you...........

"Thou shalt not steal".

Sit two babies face to face with a rattle between them and each one will try to take what they want from the other one!
Is that stealing?
Is that coveting?

Yes, I do know that they do not know what they are doing but that is not the point!

 

[Major]

.
With our sins blotted out, we will be judged on the life we live.
.

My dear friend Robin. Please allow me to say to you, What bad deeds have believers committed that have not been taken away by Christ? None. And what good deeds will unbelievers be judged for? None. Their deeds are as filthy rags = Isaiah 64:6.

There is actually NO Future judgment for believers!!!!

2 Corinthians 5 says that believers will be recompensed for their good deeds which means REWARDS!

A believer doesn’t need to worry about being judged by God. In fact, Scripture is clear that if we fear judgment, we have not been perfected in God’s love. Fear has to do with imagining judgment and punishment (1 John 4:18). But the simple solution is to trust in God’s perfect love that casts away all fear. When Christ returns for a believer, it will be “without reference” to your sins (Hebrews 9:28). In fact, for the believer, the Day of Judgment will be a day of celebrating that Jesus took away all of our sins and made us righteous forever. There will be no cause for any tears or sorrow at all (Revelation 21:4).

 

[BibleLover]

NO Robin they do not!

You have not been taught that but what matters in life is what the Scriptures actually. You said the very same thin on another thread!

The Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God in John 3:3.

The Scriptures are clear as we seen in Romans 5:12........
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people”.

Every single human being was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. Romans 5:18.......
“One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people”.

We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.

Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. in Proverbs 22:15.....
“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child”.

David says in Psalms 51:3.......
“Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” .

Then in Psalms 58:3.....
“Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies”.

Before we were saved Ephesians 2:3 says that ......“we were by nature deserving of wrath”.
Note that we deserved God’s wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.

We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh:
Romans 8:8......
"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God”.

We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life according to Ephesians 2:1. We lack any inherent spiritual good.

Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adam’s family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into God’s family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that “to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent . . . but born of God” in John 1:12-13.

Now we all know that you are of the Charismatic Pentacostal faith. Allow me to me clear!!!!! You are welcome to follow your denomination teaching or you can follow the Word of God. I will not argue with anyone

Most pentecostal groups are hyper Arminian. Their continued salvation is based on their deeds. They lose their salvation every time they sin until they pray a repentance prayer. According to them, until they repent of the current sin, they are not in a state of grace but of condemnation. For example, if a saved pentecostal looked lustfully at someone (a sin according to the Sermon on the Mount) and then immediately died in an accident, that person would go to hell because of unrepented sin.

 

[Major]

Most pentecostal groups are hyper Arminian. Their continued salvation is based on their deeds. They lose their salvation every time they sin until they pray a repentance prayer. According to them, until they repent of the current sin, they are not in a state of grace but of condemnation. For example, if a saved pentecostal looked lustfully at someone (a sin according to the Sermon on the Mount) and then immediately died in an accident, that person would go to hell because of unrepented sin.

You are correct.

How would you like to live like that???

 

[Musicmaster]

MM........we can not argue his literal words..........." except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death."

It is what it is. Now we can making observations and hab=ve opinion and I respect all of that, but what is said is said.

Like any analysis of the Bible, something taken from its context and excluded from a systematic analysis is prone to misrepresentation in the extreme. I'm just trying to be a voice of caution to not condemn Calvin's writing that does not align with the accusation made. That's my only aim in this.

MM

 

[Major]

Like any analysis of the Bible, something taken from its context and excluded from a systematic analysis is prone to misrepresentation in the extreme. I'm just trying to be a voice of caution to not condemn Calvin's writing that does not align with the accusation made. That's my only aim in this.

MM

Listen brother.........I agree 100%. My only point was that it was said. No more, no less.

 

[Major]

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Judgement day?
.

There is NO judgment day for born again believers! Our judgment and sins were placed onto Jesus and He paid for all of them on the cross.

 

[Musicmaster]

Listen brother.........I agree 100%. My only point was that it was said. No more, no less.

Oh, but for the sake of conversation and clarity, there was more. Calvin stated emphatically that he did not at all believe that God intentionally created anyone for the purpose of populating Hell, and yet there are many out there who believe contrary to what Calvin actually said. I just want this to be clear to everyone else, even though you get it. Calvin, like so many of us, will always have someone who comes along and takes our statements out of their context, and at the exclusion of what we have written in other posts and threads, or even books we may have written.

MM

 

[Major]

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Once saved, always saved. Except for the backslider.
.

OSAS is not something we can discuss.

Can YOU post a Scripture from the New Test. on backsliding for the Christian???

The New Testament directly answers the issue of a genuine believer who sins. 1 John 1:8-9 teaches, ........
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

First, we admit that even as believers we often sin. Second, we confess our sins and experience forgiveness and cleansing.
NO where however is there any mention that we are not saved!!!

However, I think that I can safely say that The Christian, however, has availed himself of the perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ and needs no further sacrifice for his sin. God himself has obtained our salvation for us and because we are saved by Him, a true Christian cannot fall away so as not to return.

What about a person who denies Christ? The Bible tells us that if a person denies Christ, he never truly knew Christ to begin with.
A person who rejects Christ and turns his back on faith is demonstrating that he never belonged to Christ. Those who belong to Christ remain with Christ. Those who renounce their faith never had it to begin with.