Doctrine of Children?

[Musicmaster]

...Is it in the character of God to condemn mentally ill, insane or babies to eternal death because they were not able to make a choice knowledgably? YES........I do understand Predestination and the Doctrine of Depravity I also believe in the love of God.

It's the last item in your post that I wanted to comment upon:

The discussion about mentally ill people...yes. They are indeed special, and I agree with you that God, who is indeed loving in the perfect sense, will judge each one on the basis of His perfect justice, given that He knows them in far deeper ways than any of us can possibly imagine. I had not considered them as candidates for a great reset into the Millennium, and being born whole of mind and body, to then reach that decision point.

Hmm. That is food for thought.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

Over a period of months now, I've been contemplating the absolute nature of what is said about salvation...in that one MUST be born again in order to enter into Heaven. There are loopholes, no bypasses, no end arounds, no tunneling under the wall and no flying over it. Christ Jesus is the ONLY means to salvation, and there is no other...at least, that's what the Bible teaches and most of us here believe. So, when we find ourselves faced with another seemingly contradictory doctrine that is not stated in scripture anywhere that I can find, and we realize we're faced with utter silence on the issue, and we still pit the emotional doctrine against the absolute doctrine, the emotional doctrine seems to win on all counts! Why is that?

Hello Musicmaster;

After reading Doctrine of Children? and our conversations we have had, you always have a serious concern over the fate of non-believers and believers. For that I always thank God for your ministry, brother.

You remind me of Jesse who was entrusted to raise in Godly care for his 8 sons. You have been blessed with 4 sons. My Dad raised 4 sons (beside 3 daughters.)

In your opening thread is a fundamental teaching that all Christians should believe, apply and evangelize especially in the doctrine of children. Doctrine is what we believe, what we do and how we do it reference 1 Corinthians 15.

Good doctrine is to unite us, not divide us. I feel this a concern that you're writing about as well as others in this topic.

We can't get past the fundamental teaching of salvation when we're overcome with squabbling and attempting to "major in minor issues." In my own personal spiritual growth my minor issues and semantics were hindrances and began to cloud my salvation based on my logic, reason and rationale. None of this trumps God's Ways so when He helps me "get a grip," I can always just ask Him.

Many years later God has disciplined, grown and matured me turning my attention how I see children and all, today. Am I still mindful of God's teaching in Deuteronomy 6:5-9?

MM, you may also be teaching not only the doctrine of children but all ages who are still trying to figure out Christ and cannot handle meat right now, but a slow progression of milk. I say this because I am also very concerned about the gospel, doctrine and salvation being fed to all peoples, reference 1 Thessalonians 2:17 - 3:13

I was called a Boomer the other day by a Millennial and GenZ. I joked with them that if they can keep their ears open to the fundamental teachings of the Gospel then they can call me anything they want. I'm a Boomer for Christ. lol!

I've learned that Paul has an incredible passion for missions. I see that in you as well, MM. When Hazel and I go to a gathering of believers, we're joining sinners. We desire to be with God's people. We desire to be with new believers, not to lecture or scold, but to love them more into Christ. We desire to encourage a child or new believer in their maturity, but also admonish them when needed. Most of all, we desire to increase in overflowing love toward all.

God bless you, brother, and thank you for allowing me to share.

 

[Major]

It's the last item in your post that I wanted to comment upon:

The discussion about mentally ill people...yes. They are indeed special, and I agree with you that God, who is indeed loving in the perfect sense, will judge each one on the basis of His perfect justice, given that He knows them in far deeper ways than any of us can possibly imagine. I had not considered them as candidates for a great reset into the Millennium, and being born whole of mind and body, to then reach that decision point.

Hmm. That is food for thought.

MM

I am not sure I am understanding your position of "great reset" in the Millennium.

"Re-set" of exactly what????

I am saying that some humans will survive the Tribulation. In Mathhew 25:31-46 we see the Goat and Sheep Judgment .
The goats symbolized unbelievers who will “go away into eternal punishment” or hell in 41-46 and the sheep symbolized as believers in Christ who will enter the millennium. Those who enter the millennial kingdom will enter with mortal bodies.

Everyone who enters the kingdom will be believers. Those believers who are living in the kingdom with immortal bodies will never die. Those believers who enter the millennial kingdom with mortal bodies may have babies and can die at some future time during the millennial kingdom. Those who are born in the kingdom will be sinners at birth since they are still descendants of Adam because of Romans 5:12-14, 16-19. This means that they must believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be forgiven their sins, escape hell and go to heaven.

 

[Musicmaster]

I am not sure I am understanding your position of "great reset" in the Millennium.

"Re-set" of exactly what????

He was being imaginative, and it seemed to fit. You know...reset...starting over in order to arrive at the point in life that was taken from them.

Bob, had some good points too. This topic isn't about division, but rather exploring and reasoning, with the aim being to help solidify sound doctrine that is actually spelled out in the Bible. More on this later...

Everyone who enters the kingdom will be believers. Those believers who are living in the kingdom with immortal bodies will never die. Those believers who enter the millennial kingdom with mortal bodies may have babies and can die at some future time during the millennial kingdom. Those who are born in the kingdom will be sinners at birth since they are still descendants of Adam because of Romans 5:12-14, 16-19. This means that they must believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be forgiven their sins, escape hell and go to heaven.

I totally agree with you. We're on the same page here.

What's interesting about the Millennium is that most of humanity in that kingdom will, as Christ pointed out in Matthew 7, will perish by their own choice, and what is said in Revelation 20, where even most of them will be wiped out on the basis of their rebellion and desire for violence against the King.

Building upon what's interesting is that those people of those nations, even though they grew up and lived within a pristine environment with Satan locked away and no longer an influence, fallen, human nature still rises up in rebellion. The condition of the human heart is such that even without Satan, man is still depraved, with most of the population choosing the side of death and evil!

Whether babies and children go through some sort of reset and are brought into that kingdom through birth or direct placement in order to make that choice, or not, all of this drives home the world's desperate need for Christ, and His Redemptive power in life. This drives home the solidity and trustworthiness of sound doctrine...because no matter what anyone believes, there's sound doctrine that is true and absolute regardless of belief or inclinations or desires.

This, dear friend, which is something I'm sure we can both agree, points to Truth...Truth is a Person, not a collection of right and proper beliefs. His doctrines of truth, they are as eternal as He, not everlasting as we, His creations, but eternal.

So, everyone, please do not see these reasonings about babies and children as a blind to the real thrust of what I've put forth here. The word, as I have said before, is falling deeper and deeper into the abyss of falsehoods and lies, avarice like never seen before, and their love waxing cold, just as prophecy foretold. I pray that our deliverance is soon coming...Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly.

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Building upon what's interesting is that those people of those nations, even though they grew up and lived within a pristine environment with Satan locked away and no longer an influence, fallen, human nature still rises up in rebellion. The condition of the human heart is such that even without Satan, man is still depraved, with most of the population choosing the side of death and evil!

A significant factor is that most people not only don't see themselves as evil but won't even entertain the idea. As Paul so eloquently put it, it's not our will but the power of sin within us that compels us to do the very thing we hate.

I struggled with that for many years and only very recently came to see it as true. It's a bitter pill to swallow but until we do there is no hope for us.

 

[Musicmaster]

A significant factor is that most people not only don't see themselves as evil but won't even entertain the idea. As Paul so eloquently put it, it's not our will but the power of sin within us that compels us to do the very thing we hate.

I struggled with that for many years and only very recently came to see it as true. It's a bitter pill to swallow but until we do there is no hope for us.

LTLG, bless you, my friend. We live in a messed up world that's teaching kids in public schools that people are basically good, and...oh...that is SO far from the truth, as you have pointed out!

Thanks for sharing, and for bringing home another facet of this complex puzzle we call "humanity."

MM

 

[Major]

A significant factor is that most people not only don't see themselves as evil but won't even entertain the idea. As Paul so eloquently put it, it's not our will but the power of sin within us that compels us to do the very thing we hate.

I struggled with that for many years and only very recently came to see it as true. It's a bitter pill to swallow but until we do there is no hope for us.

You are correct and that is why it is so difficult to lead them to Christ. The thought of.......I am basically good, why do I need Jesus is their mantra.

 

[Major]

He was being imaginative, and it seemed to fit. You know...reset...starting over in order to arrive at the point in life that was taken from them.

Bob, had some good points too. This topic isn't about division, but rather exploring and reasoning, with the aim being to help solidify sound doctrine that is actually spelled out in the Bible. More on this later...



I totally agree with you. We're on the same page here.

What's interesting about the Millennium is that most of humanity in that kingdom will, as Christ pointed out in Matthew 7, will perish by their own choice, and what is said in Revelation 20, where even most of them will be wiped out on the basis of their rebellion and desire for violence against the King.

Building upon what's interesting is that those people of those nations, even though they grew up and lived within a pristine environment with Satan locked away and no longer an influence, fallen, human nature still rises up in rebellion. The condition of the human heart is such that even without Satan, man is still depraved, with most of the population choosing the side of death and evil!

Whether babies and children go through some sort of reset and are brought into that kingdom through birth or direct placement in order to make that choice, or not, all of this drives home the world's desperate need for Christ, and His Redemptive power in life. This drives home the solidity and trustworthiness of sound doctrine...because no matter what anyone believes, there's sound doctrine that is true and absolute regardless of belief or inclinations or desires.

This, dear friend, which is something I'm sure we can both agree, points to Truth...Truth is a Person, not a collection of right and proper beliefs. His doctrines of truth, they are as eternal as He, not everlasting as we, His creations, but eternal.

So, everyone, please do not see these reasonings about babies and children as a blind to the real thrust of what I've put forth here. The word, as I have said before, is falling deeper and deeper into the abyss of falsehoods and lies, avarice like never seen before, and their love waxing cold, just as prophecy foretold. I pray that our deliverance is soon coming...Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly.

MM

I have no arguments with you in any way........never have.

I only question this idea you said...........
"Whether babies and children go through some sort of reset and are brought into that kingdom through birth or direct placement in order to make that choice, or not, all of this drives home the world's desperate need for Christ, and His Redemptive power in life. "

I just do not find that idea Biblical. When a bay/child dies, it is dead. It immediately goes to heaven. It seems to me that you are saying that God would send that baby back to humanity in a "reset" of some kind or a "re-do/make over".

MM, to "ME", that speaks more of reincarnation and the Bible never suggests that anywhere I know of.

Now, President Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church of Jesus Christ, Mormons reported: ........
“Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’

 

[Musicmaster]

I have no arguments with you in any way........never have.

I only question this idea you said...........
"Whether babies and children go through some sort of reset and are brought into that kingdom through birth or direct placement in order to make that choice, or not, all of this drives home the world's desperate need for Christ, and His Redemptive power in life. "

I just do not find that idea Biblical. When a bay/child dies, it is dead. It immediately goes to heaven. It seems to me that you are saying that God would send that baby back to humanity in a "reset" of some kind or a "re-do/make over".

MM, to "ME", that speaks more of reincarnation and the Bible never suggests that anywhere I know of.

Now, President Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church of Jesus Christ, Mormons reported: ........
“Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’

Good points, Major.

What I will point out is that reincarnation is not at all akin to what I was thinking. Reincarnation is a purely pagan concept of rebirth after rebirth after rebirth, all based upon previous life performance, which is not at all in the ballpark of what I'm talking about. I'm not being adamant about the idea that they will be reborn necessarily, but could be simply placed into families by way of deliverance. (shrug) I don't know for sure, and never meant to convey that thought.

I prefer to think that I have effectively put this one to rest, because there are many doctrinal realities within scripture that can also be compared to some pagan systems of thought and practice in order to muddy the waters of solid biblical teaching. The reason I say this is because introducing something that is such a radical departure from my original thought does just that, it's akin to poisoning the well. Now, Major, I understand that reincarnation is a natural tendency for comparison, but others have also made that connection in this thread, and it seems to not be going away, which only points to my own failure are effectively dispatching it. I'm not blaming you personally.

For the sake of reiteration, I will again say that I'm not pushing this concept on the basis of any absolute stated within scripture. I'm simply building it upon the solid teachings within scripture to see if they uphold it, or drop it flat on the ground as utterly implausible. That is why I am seeking discussion to explore the thoughts of others.

You see, to my thinking, the only attraction this has for me is the concept of God's perfect justice; where ALL are tested for the choice that they will make, whether for or against Christ. Babies and children from whom that choice was stolen through death, the effects that death had in stealing from those little ones their opportunity to choose, MAY be restored to them in the end age we call the Millennium to make sure no goats get into heaven by way of having side-stepped the very words of Christ, which I see as being all-inclusive, with absolutely no exclusions mentioned by the Lord Himself, and yet that many assume into the mix as being biblical.

So, if I may, what you appear to be positing here is that babies and very young children are transplanted into Heaven in spite of the words of Christ where He declared that one MUST BE BGORN AGAIN to enter into Heaven. Where does scripture say that babies and young children get around that? That is my question.

MM

 

[Major]

Good points, Major.

What I will point out is that reincarnation is not at all akin to what I was thinking. Reincarnation is a purely pagan concept of rebirth after rebirth after rebirth, all based upon previous life performance, which is not at all in the ballpark of what I'm talking about. I'm not being adamant about the idea that they will be reborn necessarily, but could be simply placed into families by way of deliverance. (shrug) I don't know for sure, and never meant to convey that thought.

I prefer to think that I have effectively put this one to rest, because there are many doctrinal realities within scripture that can also be compared to some pagan systems of thought and practice in order to muddy the waters of solid biblical teaching. The reason I say this is because introducing something that is such a radical departure from my original thought does just that, it's akin to poisoning the well. Now, Major, I understand that reincarnation is a natural tendency for comparison, but others have also made that connection in this thread, and it seems to not be going away, which only points to my own failure are effectively dispatching it. I'm not blaming you personally.

For the sake of reiteration, I will again say that I'm not pushing this concept on the basis of any absolute stated within scripture. I'm simply building it upon the solid teachings within scripture to see if they uphold it, or drop it flat on the ground as utterly implausible. That is why I am seeking discussion to explore the thoughts of others.

You see, to my thinking, the only attraction this has for me is the concept of God's perfect justice; where ALL are tested for the choice that they will make, whether for or against Christ. Babies and children from whom that choice was stolen through death, the effects that death had in stealing from those little ones their opportunity to choose, MAY be restored to them in the end age we call the Millennium to make sure no goats get into heaven by way of having side-stepped the very words of Christ, which I see as being all-inclusive, with absolutely no exclusions mentioned by the Lord Himself, and yet that many assume into the mix as being biblical.

So, if I may, what you appear to be positing here is that babies and very young children are transplanted into Heaven in spite of the words of Christ where He declared that one MUST BE BGORN AGAIN to enter into Heaven. Where does scripture say that babies and young children get around that? That is my question.

MM

The Bible does NOT say that there is a way around, "You must be born again".

Neither does it suggest that babies and mentally ill have to make a choice for Christ!

What it does say is in Psalms 119:68............."Thou art good and doest good."

Now then, If we are all born under sin, and salvation is by faith in Christ, which infants do not have the mental capacity to exercise, then it might at first seem that no infants can be saved, OR that there must be some kind of "re-set" (which you said) to account for their inability to make the choice.

As far as the Scriptures go, surely If God saved John the Baptist and David in infancy, surely we are warranted in concluding that he has saved others in infancy that were not given the opportunity to grow up.

Personally, I think that the important thing here to consider s that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.

 

[Musicmaster]

The Bible does NOT say that there is a way around, "You must be born again".

Neither does it suggest that babies and mentally ill have to make a choice for Christ!

What it does say is in Psalms 119:68............."Thou art good and doest good."

Now then, If we are all born under sin, and salvation is by faith in Christ, which infants do not have the mental capacity to exercise, then it might at first seem that no infants can be saved, OR that there must be some kind of "re-set" (which you said) to account for their inability to make the choice.

As far as the Scriptures go, surely If God saved John the Baptist and David in infancy, surely we are warranted in concluding that he has saved others in infancy that were not given the opportunity to grow up.

Personally, I think that the important thing here to consider s that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.

Now THAT is what I'm after...more references that might indicate that babies and infants get around having to be born again for salvation. Let's look at that.

John 3:1-12, Ephesians 2:1-5, Romans 5:12-21, Ephesians 2:3 and Psalm 51:5 all point to the fact that infants are born in sin. I have also stated a belief that the sin is even in all infants before birth, from the time of conception once the father's DNA is introduced into the egg.

So, it's premature for anyone to assume the lack of salvation for infants and young children, AND to assume salvation on the basis of any other scriptures that fail to speak to this topic directly.

Why were John the Baptist and David singled out for mention of the Spirit being with them in the womb and beyond? Well, perhaps that can be chalked up as being a matter of God's plan for them in adulthood. We don't know either way, so that too tends to fail at being a solid foundation for believing that the same is true of all infants and children...meaning that both systems of thought are equally rooted in the silence of scripture on this topic.

So, given all this, we see that at least some babies, even in the womb, were enveloped by the Spirit upon whom the Lord had definite and specific plans for in life. Conversely, we also have no reason to assume that all infants are equally enveloped and therefore saved according to some special purpose the Lord has. That seems to have been reserved for a select few, of which I do not question the Sovereignty of the Lord.

What, then, can we conclude from the silence in either direction without all the emotional injections that so many others out there are prone to force into the white spaces between the words and sentences?

Well, that is what landed me into starting this thread...perhaps they WILL live in the Millennium to make that choice, where there will remain no excuse for the majority of all the babies and children who died before the point of accountability, and still land themselves in Hell rather than to be taken up into Heaven regardless of the choice they would have made otherwise.

That too is an unsettling possibility that I find hard to swallow so easily.

So, these are the three possibilities:

1) All babies and children who die before the point of accountability are saved,
2) All babies and children who die before the point of accountability will be given the opportunity to choose in the Millennium, or
3) Of all the babies and children who die before the point of accountability whom the Lord knows would have rejected Him, will not be saved, with only those He knows will have accepted Him being saved.

Are there other possibilities?

Generally speaking, it can then be asked if there would be a measure of injustice for those who never made it to that point of accountability, and yet are rejected on the basis of God's foreknowledge. What of that? Could they not stand up before the Lord and try to accuse Him for their not having been afforded that opportunity? Sounds absurd, but then, are we not all prone to assume what is absurd in some measure?

On the other hand, those who did make it, and chose Christ and lived the hardships, then watching those be counted among them who never even made it to that point and would have rejected Christ...

See where this all can go? I'm not trying to say that there will be jealousy in Heaven, but rather pointing out that we in this life have to consider these kinds of things in order to properly measure our own thoughts and reasoning against what is stated as solid and unquestionable doctrine.

The bottom line remains, and is beyond question for all:

John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Spirit being WITH someone, verses being born of the Spirit after calling upon the name of the Lord...there are no caveats in the context.

Therefore my gravitation toward point #2 above, within the economy of what I perceive as being God's perfect justice played out in every life.

For those who disagree, that's ok. This is not a topic that really affects us and our salvation. It should, however, spur us on to reaching as many people and children with the Gospel right now as is possible.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

So, if I may, what you appear to be positing here is that babies and very young children are transplanted into Heaven in spite of the words of Christ where He declared that one MUST BE BGORN AGAIN to enter into Heaven. Where does scripture say that babies and young children get around that? That is my question.

MM

The Bible does NOT say that there is a way around, "You must be born again". Personally, I think that the important thing here to consider s that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.

Hello MM and Major;

Peace be with both my brothers. In the case of children going to the Father before their time, I'm presuming you're talking about in the case babies die? What do they or we do?

In my experience our baby died while Hazel was 6 months pregnant. While in her womb we prayed on behalf of our pre-born baby. When he died that he be embraced by our Father with the hope that one day we will know and love our son while rejoicing in Heaven, as we knew and loved our son, for a short time on earth.

Today our son would have been 37 years old. Hazel and I thank God for the 6 months he was with us. But we have all the faith He is with our Father. We have peace about this and have moved on till the day we see him again in Heaven.

Musicmaster, what is your conclusion regarding the Doctrine of Children? Though we are all sinners, including little children, what do you believe God will do in the case one of His little ones dying before their time?

Major, we know in the Bible there is no "what to do blueprint" in the case our little ones die, enabling them all by themself to reconcile their sin against God. I believe God hears the prayers of giving grace to those we pray for, our little children, especially those who can't help themself.

This thing about Re-Set was used as an expression by MM's son, not as a systematic or literal Biblical term. I feel that 30 years from now MM's son may have a different definition all together.

God bless you both.
Bob

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello MM and Major;

Peace be with both my brothers. In the case of children going to the Father before their time, I'm presuming you're talking about in the case babies die? What do they or we do?

In my experience our baby died while Hazel was 6 months pregnant. While in her womb we prayed on behalf of our pre-born baby. When he died that he be embraced by our Father with the hope that one day we will know and love our son while rejoicing in Heaven, as we knew and loved our son, for a short time on earth.

Today our son would have been 37 years old. Hazel and I thank God for the 6 months he was with us. But we have all the faith He is with our Father. We have peace about this and have moved on till the day we see him again in Heaven.

Musicmaster, what is your conclusion regarding the Doctrine of Children? Though we are all sinners, including little children, what do you believe God will do in the case one of His little ones dying before their time?

Major, we know in the Bible there is no "what to do blueprint" in the case our little ones die, enabling them all by themself to reconcile their sin against God. I believe God hears the prayers of giving grace to those we pray for, our little children, especially those who can't help themself.

This thing about Re-Set was used as an expression by MM's son, not as a systematic or literal Biblical term. I feel that 30 years from now MM's son may have a different definition all together.

God bless you both.
Bob

Greetings, Bob, and blessings to you and Hazel both.

My basic conclusion is in Post 31 above, where I state the direction I have "gravitated" toward.

Interestingly, in this life, we have predispositions in our emotions and feelings toward those who are our own, whom we call "family" and "children." That's wonderful and I do not disparage that at all, for that is how the Lord made us to live in this juncture in our lives.

In eternity, many will be there in the absence of those who were their children in this life, and many will have those in their midst who were their children in this life. Most assume that familial ties will be as strong there as they are here, but my understanding from scripture is that, in eternity, we will all have a much stronger bond to one another than what we have here within the bond of what see as family; a bond that will not be outweighed by what was familial in this life here, for in eternity, our bond will be as a singular body structure, under the Headship of Christ, which is something that we can only etherealize here since the substance of its reality is not yet experienced in a more realistic and meaningful state that we WILL experience firsthand in eternity.

Does that make sense?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Bob, I will also say that, if what I am positing here in this thread turns out to be true, I also firmly believe that the prayers we apply toward our children who passed on before that point, those prayers are effective when set before the Lord by the righteous:

James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

MM

 

[Major]

Now THAT is what I'm after...more references that might indicate that babies and infants get around having to be born again for salvation. Let's look at that.

John 3:1-12, Ephesians 2:1-5, Romans 5:12-21, Ephesians 2:3 and Psalm 51:5 all point to the fact that infants are born in sin. I have also stated a belief that the sin is even in all infants before birth, from the time of conception once the father's DNA is introduced into the egg.

So, it's premature for anyone to assume the lack of salvation for infants and young children, AND to assume salvation on the basis of any other scriptures that fail to speak to this topic directly.

Why were John the Baptist and David singled out for mention of the Spirit being with them in the womb and beyond? Well, perhaps that can be chalked up as being a matter of God's plan for them in adulthood. We don't know either way, so that too tends to fail at being a solid foundation for believing that the same is true of all infants and children...meaning that both systems of thought are equally rooted in the silence of scripture on this topic.

So, given all this, we see that at least some babies, even in the womb, were enveloped by the Spirit upon whom the Lord had definite and specific plans for in life. Conversely, we also have no reason to assume that all infants are equally enveloped and therefore saved according to some special purpose the Lord has. That seems to have been reserved for a select few, of which I do not question the Sovereignty of the Lord.

What, then, can we conclude from the silence in either direction without all the emotional injections that so many others out there are prone to force into the white spaces between the words and sentences?

Well, that is what landed me into starting this thread...perhaps they WILL live in the Millennium to make that choice, where there will remain no excuse for the majority of all the babies and children who died before the point of accountability, and still land themselves in Hell rather than to be taken up into Heaven regardless of the choice they would have made otherwise.

That too is an unsettling possibility that I find hard to swallow so easily.

So, these are the three possibilities:

1) All babies and children who die before the point of accountability are saved,
2) All babies and children who die before the point of accountability will be given the opportunity to choose in the Millennium, or
3) Of all the babies and children who die before the point of accountability whom the Lord knows would have rejected Him, will not be saved, with only those He knows will have accepted Him being saved.

Are there other possibilities?

Generally speaking, it can then be asked if there would be a measure of injustice for those who never made it to that point of accountability, and yet are rejected on the basis of God's foreknowledge. What of that? Could they not stand up before the Lord and try to accuse Him for their not having been afforded that opportunity? Sounds absurd, but then, are we not all prone to assume what is absurd in some measure?

On the other hand, those who did make it, and chose Christ and lived the hardships, then watching those be counted among them who never even made it to that point and would have rejected Christ...

See where this all can go? I'm not trying to say that there will be jealousy in Heaven, but rather pointing out that we in this life have to consider these kinds of things in order to properly measure our own thoughts and reasoning against what is stated as solid and unquestionable doctrine.

The bottom line remains, and is beyond question for all:

John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Spirit being WITH someone, verses being born of the Spirit after calling upon the name of the Lord...there are no caveats in the context.

Therefore my gravitation toward point #2 above, within the economy of what I perceive as being God's perfect justice played out in every life.

For those who disagree, that's ok. This is not a topic that really affects us and our salvation. It should, however, spur us on to reaching as many people and children with the Gospel right now as is possible.

MM

Go with #1!

Why?

#2 does not work for many reasons.
For this to happen there would have to be reincarnation.
Or for this to happen, the baby would have to be born physically again.
Or for this to happen, the baby would show up at the age he died originally. How would that be explained?
How would a human, who dies as an infant than be given a 2nd chance in the Millenium????

Doesn't the idea of a 2nd chance after death fly in the face of Hebrews 9:27...."born once to die and then the judgement".

#3. NO! That is hyper Calvinism.

 

[Major]

Hello MM and Major;

Peace be with both my brothers. In the case of children going to the Father before their time, I'm presuming you're talking about in the case babies die? What do they or we do?

In my experience our baby died while Hazel was 6 months pregnant. While in her womb we prayed on behalf of our pre-born baby. When he died that he be embraced by our Father with the hope that one day we will know and love our son while rejoicing in Heaven, as we knew and loved our son, for a short time on earth.

Today our son would have been 37 years old. Hazel and I thank God for the 6 months he was with us. But we have all the faith He is with our Father. We have peace about this and have moved on till the day we see him again in Heaven.

Musicmaster, what is your conclusion regarding the Doctrine of Children? Though we are all sinners, including little children, what do you believe God will do in the case one of His little ones dying before their time?

Major, we know in the Bible there is no "what to do blueprint" in the case our little ones die, enabling them all by themself to reconcile their sin against God. I believe God hears the prayers of giving grace to those we pray for, our little children, especially those who can't help themself.

This thing about Re-Set was used as an expression by MM's son, not as a systematic or literal Biblical term. I feel that 30 years from now MM's son may have a different definition all together.

God bless you both.
Bob

You know, most of us do not talk about our past problems. My wife and I have experienced what you described and then 10 years ago, my daughter went through exactly the same thing.

Now, if I thought that God would autocratically sentence an unborn or innocent child or a mentally person to eternal hell, I could never have served Him for all of these years.

I think that we all agree that Salvation is not a gift we give ourselves but a gift we receive from God. Prior to conversion to Christ, all people must go through a process of illumination regarding the ugliness of sin and the contrasting beauty of God's redemptive work in Jesus.

However, for those who cannot go through such a process because of their limited mental faculties, or their age, the character of God suggests that He would make provision for them. As a result, while we recognize that saved people have an understanding of sin, repentance, redemption through Christ, and eternal life, we also recognize that those of limited mental capacity—such as infants and individuals who are mentally disabled—may be saved by grace without such understanding.

There are somethings that we just will never know till we get to heaven. I have found it best to leave those things in the closest lest they drive you bonckers!

 

[Major]

I always thought it was deliberate sin, as with Adam and Eve, who were knowingly disobedient.

Had they not known, they would have been innocent.
.

Not so!

Is. 53:6.........
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way, and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Romans 3:23...........
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

We sin because we are sinners. Adams sin was imputed to all of humanity and now every single person born is born with a sin nature which never goes away.

But because of our sin, we are lost as seen in Isaiah 59:2. The gulf between us and God is impossible for us to bridge, and we cannot find our way back into His presence. Spiritually lost people are bound by their sin and condemned to hell which is told to us in Luke 12:5 by Jesus and Paul in Romans 6:23,.

But when the lost place their trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a bridge opens up before them. Because of God’s mercy and love, the lost can come home which Peter tells us in 1 Peter 2:25.

 

[Musicmaster]

I always thought it was deliberate sin, as with Adam and Eve, who were knowingly disobedient.

Had they not known, they would have been innocent.
.

There was a time that I held to that belief, until I came the realization that, as is the case for us all, sin is sin.

John 3:1-12, Ephesians 2:1-5, Romans 5:12-21, Ephesians 2:3 and Psalm 51:5 all point to the fact that infants are born in sin. I have also stated a belief that the sin is even in all infants before birth, from the time of conception once the father's DNA is introduced into the egg.

Upon reflection, thanks for the reminder of days gone by in my own path through the myriads of beliefs that I once held. It's been a bumpy ride, but well worthwhile. You see, in the various meanderings we go through, those are great exercises that can help us to recognize the truth from falsehoods. My trek through Mormonism, for example, taught me much.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

#3. NO! That is hyper Calvinism.

There is a glaring difference between what I'm proposing, and what you call hyper-Calvinism.

I stated, as a possibility, that the babies who, in life, would have rejected Christ, is a matter of foreknowledge that we cannot comprehend nor experience in this life, which is antithetical to the extremes of Calvinism. They do not acknowledge the foreknowledge of God...at least, not in the sense as I have proposed it.

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Now, if I thought that God would autocratically sentence an unborn or innocent child or a mentally person to eternal hell, I could never have served Him for all of these years.

This is a very good point. Is there a line you won't cross when serving God, and if there is a line are you truly God's? I think back to Abram who was willing to slaughter his own son at God's command. Perhaps this deserves its own thread...