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Conditions For Salvation

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Intojoy, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.

    One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation. Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.

    This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.

    First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.

    If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in. We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work. The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
    Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.
    bobbin, KingJ and Major says Amen and like this.
  2. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
    Major likes this.
  3. I think this topic of Sola Fide has left me butting heads with most of the good folks in here. I have to confess I disagree with this doctrine. This isn't to say that I don't believe we are saved by our faith in Christ, who He is, and what He has done...but I don't believe we are justified by faith alone. (James 2:24, James 2:26, Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-17).

    Though of course I believe we are saved by Grace alone. I certainly wouldn't disagree with that.
  4. Has it ever crossed your mind my brother that you just may be wrong on this?????

    I know for a fact that my brothers called me ugly and I rejected their claim completely and then one day, one of them held down and made me look into a mirror. OOPsss. They were right all along!!!

    I for am not going to butt heads with you over this. I believe the Scripture is very clear and you believe the opposite. We are still best friends and I will be over at 7 for supper!!!!!
    KingJ likes this.
  5. Oh good -- I'm making my famous Sherry Wine Seared Chicken! We've always got a place for you at the table!

    Indeed, it has occurred to me that I could be wrong. This was my first thought when I began questioning my old position on Sola Fide (which you know I used to support this doctrine). It turned out that I was wrong. We are not justified by faith alone. I tried very hard to argue against this Bible verse countering it with these verses:

    -Romans 5:1
    -Romans 4:5
    -John 3:16
    -Ephesians 2:8-9
    -Romans 3:28 (Martin Luther even had to add the word 'alone' to his early translation and removed the book of James. He then put it back in, but addressed it as an "epistle of straw" meaning dung--BS--rubbish).
    -John 3:18

    I believe in all of these verses because I believe in all verses. Although not one of these say that only by faith we are justified. The following verses differ from the Sola Fide doctrine:

    -James 2:24 (the only place where you see 'Faith' and 'Alone' together in the Bible).
    -James 2:26
    -Titus 1:16
    -Matthew 7:21
    -Matthew 19:16-17
    -Romans 2:13
    -James 2:20
    -Hebrews 12:14

    One argument I've heard is that James wrote about a different faith than Paul. Paul wrote about a "saving" or "justifying" faith, where as James wrote more about an "intellectual" or "sanctifying" faith. I even considered this. I had to look into this and read the Bible even more.

    1) The Bible never said addresses that they are talking about two different faiths.
    2) If they were talking about two different faiths, why did James use the word "justify"?
    3) They were talking about the same faith as they each quoted the same exact Old Testament passage about Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6.

    I was hoping that I had been right all along that we are saved by faith alone, but if the Bible doesn't teach this and instead teaches that we are not saved by faith alone, then how do I stand a chance to argue against the scriptures?

    I had to claim defeat. I was wrong. Faith alone would have been so much easier, too. But alas, we are not saved by faith alone because the Bible doesn't contradict itself and it says it very clearly.

    (PS, please bring a side dish).
  6. Too many enjoy playing with words.

    We are saved by faith (which is trust, not belief, Satan believes).
    Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is empty faith.

    So, what are we left with? You need faith AND works.
    Either alone will not save you.
    LysanderShapiro likes this.
  7. Well, I see the old Reformation disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is still alive and well....
  8. "Words, words, words! I am so sick of words!"
    ~Eliza Doolittle
  9. I think two principles can help here.
    1.) More obscure verses must be interpreted in the light of the more numerous verses on the topic.
    2.) Passages aimed at those living under the Mosaic Dispensation must be distinguished from those aimed at believers under the New Covenant. The Old and New Covenants are different.
    Major likes this.
  10. I couldn't agree more.
    Major likes this.
  11. Well at least that's a beginning....maybe more common ground can be found as this discussion continues!
    Major likes this.
  12. I sure hope so. :)
    Major likes this.
  13. Now, using these principles, we can look at some of these verses that you mentioned, Lysander.

    Hebrews 12:14. (And note that Hebrews is aimed at Hebrew people, ie., the nation of Israel, not necessarily the predominantly Gentile Church.) Yes, no man will see God without holiness. So how do we get it? The perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed to us by faith. Romans 4:5-7

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    Romans 2:13. Yes, if anyone could keep the law, they would indeed be justified. But Paul goes on to show that NO ONE has kept it. None are righteous. Romans 3:10
    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.

    In fact, the commandments of the law bring guilt, not righteousness. vv. 19,20:

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Matthew 19:16, 17. Spoken to a Jew under the law of Moses. Christ had not died yet, so the Old Covenant was still in place. This cannot be doctrinally applied to believers under the New Covenant. Hebrews 9:17
    For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Matthew 7:21. God's will for us in this age is that we believe on His son. I John 3:23:
    And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ.

    As I have been pointing out on the other thread, James is writing to the twelve tribes, ie., Israel. The passages in James must be understood in the light of the overwhelming majority of Pauline statements which tell us that salvation under the New covenant is by faith. Paul is writing to Gentile Churches under the New Covenant. That is where doctrine for the church age is found.
    Major likes this.
  14. I remember you pointing out in the other thread (and very eloquently I might add) regarding James's illustration of faith and Paul's illustration. Nonetheless, both have referenced the same faith of justification using Abraham's as an illustration (the same passage).

    Regarding the case for the righteous, this doesn't mean Luke 1:5-6 are now invalid when it says that Elizabeth and Zechariah were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. This is one example where the scriptures express two who are considered righteous by God in regards to the Lord's commandments.

    There seems to be even further translational difference. For instance, you references Matthew 7:21 since it mentions how God's will is for us to believe in His Son. 1 John 3:23 is another verse I could have referenced that I thought countered the idea of faith and works. However, this verse also doesn't say that faith is exclusively what is needed for salvation. In fact, there isn't a single verse that suggests that only faith is necessary for justification--though there are many that explain that faith is necessary for justification. No one is arguing against that.

    Yes, James' epistle was written prior to the death of Christ, but much of the teachings of the New Covenant were introduced before his death (like Mark 12:31 or Luke 22:20 ).

    If 1) The Bible is infallibly true, 2) We have verses that express that faith is necessary for salvation, 3) the new teachings from Christ were being introduced (even before his crucifixion), and 4) one of these teachings is further that man is not justified by faith alone, that faith without works is dead...

    Then I have to conclude that faith is indeed EXTREMELY necessary for justification, but to say faith alone is all you need is wrong because faith without works is dead.
  15. Lets do this.....think of a friend or associate you have who is not a Christian. You have shared the gospel with him, read the Bible to him and he never made a profession of faith.

    Then one day out of the blue, he calls you and asks you to come and talk with him. You do just that and low and behold he tells you that he wants to be saved and become a Christian. GLORY, Praise the Lord and pass the peanut butter!!!

    Then as you are looking at him he has a heart attack and dies right in front of you.

    Now think about this. I do not make this stuff up. This is reality. I can not tell you how many times this very thing has happened to me. Not only on the battlefield but in hospitals and nursing homes. This man has believed by FAITH but has done no works whatsoever to justify his faith, NOTHING. Is he saved and going to heaven in your opinion?
    What will you tell his wife and children????

    Remember, Glomung said in comment #6 and you agreed that........"
    "So, what are we left with? You need faith AND works. Either alone will not save you."
    KingJ likes this.
  16. You guys can butt heads, ...I want the recipe, aaannnnddd ya'll can come over to my house for dinner!
    (I'm just putting the final touches on a Santa Maria Style BBQ Grill I'm building, gonna do Roadside Chicken tomorrow afternoon, so you on the West Coast will have to be at LAX by 7:30 PM (west coat time) tonight to catch the Air Tahiti Nui flight to be here tomorrow. :D

    Also, don't forget the thief on the cross.

    Dear younger brother, everything we know we (and that includes you and me) are taught by revelation from the Holy Spirit, so the Truth, and only the Truth, that you know today is only because He has taught you, but, but, He is a Gentleman and will not force you to change your will, so if there is something you/me/anyone are/is holding on to He won't force us to let it go, so may I humbly suggest you humble yourself in His presence, take some time to be alone with Him, read the verses you have quoted without any agenda or preconceived ideas from other men and let Him reveal to you what He meant when He inspired them to be written, and most important don't give up until He answers you, that could be in minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years or even decades, why so long you might ask, to test you if you are really sincere in KNOWING the TRUTH, ...even if it means you/me/we are wrong.

    If you will do this He will teach you things you could never of imagined.



    p.s. please don't forget the recipe, thanks
  17. I hope to take up my other thread again, and comment more concerning James. I haven't had time to finish that because I have been busy at work and have been preaching a lot lately and simply haven't had time.

    Regarding the righteousness of Elizabeth and Zechariah, that is a perfect illustration of righteousness under the Mosaic law of the Old Covenant. Old Testament saints of that dispensation observed God's laws as best they could and offered up animal sacrifices for their shortcomings. God reckoned them 'righteous' under the terms of that Dispensation. However, in the end, that was not good enough. They still transgressed the laws, and as Paul said, the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins. So, these saints ended up in Abraham's bosom because their righteousness under the law could not get them into heaven until Jesus dealt with their sins at Calvary. Remember what God said about Job?

    There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:1

    Job was called perfect and upright. Surely this was a righteous OT saint. But was this righteousness enough? No. When Job was faced with that perfect righteousness of God, the prefect and upright man responded: 'Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee?' Job 40:4

    Paul specifically excludes works from having anything at all to do with salvation in this dispensation. Works and grace in this age are mutually exclusive.

    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

    My problem with a Roman Catholic understanding of salvation is that it has never moved out from under the Old Covenant. It involves men trying to observe God's commandments, and having a weekly sacrifice to make up for their sins. I believe, based on scripture, that Christ made one sacrifice once and for all to take away my sins. I am justified by his resurrection, and stand before before God wrapped in the perfect, imputed righteousness of Christ. Where is there any need on my part to do anything in earning it?
    Major likes this.
  18. I can't imagine saying anything other than the truth.

    This person who accepted Christ and shortly after died, like the thief on the cross, had repented. The man died, wanting to follow Jesus and so he died with what is known as "baptism of desire."

  19. Thanks, Gene. We should pray for each other that we continue to humble ourselves before God more and more, and that we see the truth clearer.

    God bless you :D


    Marinate chicken breast in sherry wine overnight.
    Season both sides of chicken breast with pepper, lemon thyme, garlic salt, adobo, and pepper flags.
    Sear chicken with canola oil (don't flip until they are crusted).
    When done, squeeze lemon juice on them.

    That's it. It's easy.
    Major likes this.
  20. Don't worry, I will read everything when I get the time (I don't want to overlook what you took the time to write).

    I do want to highlight something very, VERY important...

    Like the Catholic Church, I believe that we are saved by GRACE alone. We're not dissecting Grace and works because we both agree that grace is a free gift. But if one doesn't have faith, he hasn't accepted grace. The question at hand is whether FAITH without works is dead or not.

    I hope this makes sense. I apologize for not getting too deep into this right now, but I'll read this carefully and give a more thoughtful response.

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