American 'christians' It Is Time To Test Yourselves...

[The Town Crier]

Funny how you switch topics when Your answer for the other things I brought up is I use fancy words and the translations are wrong.

what do I have to work with here?

If you can't even Accept what is in your own bible, Connecting the wrong Greek words and mixing parent child up, then what good will speaking about Jesus coming in the clouds do for you?

Are you saying you have more IQ when it comes to defending against the Church being caught up before Tribulation?

You actually want to try to defend that position against me? When the best you come up with is everyone is wrong?

I compared Apostasia for you in acts on how it's used.
I explained what type of noun it was and told you the VERB you would need to make the scripture say what you claim.
I Explained how that Wicked Group, is actually a person, and even most all the translations agree, I even showed you the scriptures after and connected it for you.
I explained how Greek Female nouns are used, and how to correctly use it to mean falling away from the truth.

And the best you come up with is it's wrong.............. No proof............. Just wrong along with all the translations. WRONG.



And the HIM is the one coming to deceive, not the one that got deceived............ amazing. Can't you read?

And you want to dodge all this and talk about Jesus and the pretty clouds................. You can't even stay focused. How hard is it to stay focused?

And you can't answer who you think is "FALLING AWAY" how hard is that? who knows, might be Big Bird for all we know.

Your not worth wasting any more time on. Go be with Jesus and the pretty clouds.

BTW when you said that I was wrong in what I said about apostasia and apostasion..and you asked how they could possibly be related to each other...Here is your quote

"And to show just how Well you grasp simple language concepts, your brought up the Word apostasion and connected it to Apostasia............. Which is also made up of Apo and histimi.

Apostasia is MADE UP OF THE SAME TWO WORDS + 1 apostasion is made up of............

How the heck can Apostasion have anything to do with Apostasia???

Your grasping of simple language is troubling. Two words that are derived from Parent words can not have a parent child relationship......... Anyone home?"

My response:

Apparently you think that Strongs is incapable of grasping it...What you failed to realize is that I didn't come up with that-it came straight from the Strongs. You said that I made a mistake in saying they are related, but you are actually saying that Strongs is wrong because that is where it came from... You might want to rethink that...and in case you missed it- look again at the description of 'apostasia':

G646

ἀποστασία

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


It clearly says-'defection from the truth'. Those are Strongs words not mine...

If you disagree with them...I cannot help that. Now-do you still believe that the 'apostasy' or falling away is actually the removal of the church? a simple yes or no?

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

BTW when you said that I was wrong in what I said about apostasia and apostasion..and you asked how they could possibly be related to each other...TC

The last post kicked me off before I could finish so I continued here..

Here is your quote

"And to show just how Well you grasp simple language concepts, your brought up the Word apostasion and connected it to Apostasia............. Which is also made up of Apo and histimi.

Apostasia is MADE UP OF THE SAME TWO WORDS + 1 apostasion is made up of............

How the heck can Apostasion have anything to do with Apostasia???

Your grasping of simple language is troubling. Two words that are derived from Parent words can not have a parent child relationship......... Anyone home?"

My response:

Apparently you think that Strongs is incapable of grasping it...What you failed to realize is that I didn't come up with that-it came straight from the Strongs. You said that I made a mistake in saying they are related, but you are actually saying that Strongs is wrong because that is where it came from...


Strongs connects the two together:

G646

ἀποστασία

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


G647

ἀποστάσιον

apostasion

ap-os-tas'-ee-on

Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.


Yes they are basically the same word, and the point is that it does not say anything about a 'physical departure' in either one of them (as from one location to another). Apostasy is a 'defection from truth' according to Strongs. If you disagree with them...I cannot help that.

In addition- let's look at your Strongs:

Strongs Word study actual.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
(2 Th 2:3

Now right there you prove my point- Strongs says departure from 'a previous standing'..What does Paul say-'take heed that you stand' lest you fall... You helped prove my point that it is talking about 'falling away' from that standing...the departure would be to depart from your standing in the Lord - it does not mean to be 'raptured off the earth! like you said- a 'departure from a previous standing'. which in the gospel case would be 'standing' fast in the Lord and 'stand' against the wiles of the Devil etc. There will be a departing from that towards the end...People will depart from or leave off - fall away from 'their standing' in the Lord. Your Strongs actually backs up exactly what I have been saying. Thank you- you helped me prove my point...

Now-do you really believe that the 'apostasy' or falling away is actually the removal of the church after reviewing that? A simple yes or no? Because if you say yes, then I can put the last nail in that coffin. What is it Yes or No? Is the 'falling away' the removal of the church according to you?

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

Funny how you switch topics when Your answer for the other things I brought up is I use fancy words and the translations are wrong.

what do I have to work with here?

If you can't even Accept what is in your own bible, Connecting the wrong Greek words and mixing parent child up, then what good will speaking about Jesus coming in the clouds do for you?

Are you saying you have more IQ when it comes to defending against the Church being caught up before Tribulation?

You actually want to try to defend that position against me? When the best you come up with is everyone is wrong?

I compared Apostasia for you in acts on how it's used.
I explained what type of noun it was and told you the VERB you would need to make the scripture say what you claim.
I Explained how that Wicked Group, is actually a person, and even most all the translations agree, I even showed you the scriptures after and connected it for you.
I explained how Greek Female nouns are used, and how to correctly use it to mean falling away from the truth.

And the best you come up with is it's wrong.............. No proof............. Just wrong along with all the translations. WRONG.



And the HIM is the one coming to deceive, not the one that got deceived............ amazing. Can't you read?

And you want to dodge all this and talk about Jesus and the pretty clouds................. You can't even stay focused. How hard is it to stay focused?

And you can't answer who you think is "FALLING AWAY" how hard is that? who knows, might be Big Bird for all we know.

Your not worth wasting any more time on. Go be with Jesus and the pretty clouds.

So far, I have put a gaping hole in your pre-trib theory, shown you that the falling away is not the removal of the church, shown you that the teachings of Paul on the wicked (from the falling away)- match Jesus teachings perfectly regarding the wheat and the tares, and used your own post regarding the 'apostasy' to show you are in contradiction to scripture. On top of that , you refuse to give me an answer to the only two questions I asked you- because you know that it will cause you to contradict scriptures even more. How about you just admit you have a couple things wrong... The PDF is not in error and you know it.

I even updated it with an easier to read layout and a few more nails in the pre-tribulation rapture coffin...Here is the link

http://www.thepowerofgraceministries.com/HowaNationFellFromGrace.pdf

TC

 

[Euphemia]

Don't be too sure of yourself. Looks like as good a place as any to reiterate post #67:

http://www.christianforumsite.com/t...e-to-test-yourselves.38445/page-4#post-332534

 

[The Town Crier]

Don't be too sure of yourself. Looks like as good a place as any to reiterate post #67:

http://www.christianforumsite.com/t...e-to-test-yourselves.38445/page-4#post-332534

I am sure of the consistency of scripture so though you make that claim lets take a closer look shall we?

Here is what you wrote:

"As to the PDF...

The wheat and tares judgment takes place during the initial stage of the Milliennial Reign of Christ. That happens on earth years after the Rapture of the Church, and has nothing to do with the Rapture! For you to mix things up and add 1 Thessalonians 4:17 concerning the catching away of the saints is out of context and is a major flaw in your presentation."

Lets take a look at your claim there...So show me where the wheat and tares judgment takes place years after the rapture. In fact - I ll ask you the same question Michael wont answer- Does Jesus come in the clouds more than once?

(keep in mind that Mark thirteen verses 24-26 are the Lord’s own words: )


Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of troubleand distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Th 4:17 hen we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He said that he would come back after the tribulation...Well- does he come back 'in the clouds' twice or just once? Are you going to go out on limb and contradict the words of Jesus?

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

Don't be too sure of yourself. Looks like as good a place as any to reiterate post #67:

http://www.christianforumsite.com/t...e-to-test-yourselves.38445/page-4#post-332534

And again-

Here is what you wrote:

"As to the PDF...

The wheat and tares judgment takes place during the initial stage of the Milliennial Reign of Christ. That happens on earth years after the Rapture of the Church, and has nothing to do with the Rapture! For you to mix things up and add 1 Thessalonians 4:17 concerning the catching away of the saints is out of context and is a major flaw in your presentation."


What does Jesus say about the tares...

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels,and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


The 'wheat and the tares' is the same group as 'the wicked and the just'. In both accounts the wicked and the tares are taken first and burned.

It is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about...But just to clarify- Does Jesus come in the clouds more than once?

TC

 

[Euphemia]

It appears when studying scripture that Jesus calls with a great shout and the Church goes to meet Him in the air. Then He and the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming later where He sets foot on the Earth---the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4

 

[The Town Crier]

It appears when studying scripture that Jesus calls with a great shout and the Church goes to meet Him in the air. Then He and the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming later where He sets foot on the Earth---the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4

So then Jesus comes back twice? That contradicts scripture friend...

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Where does it say that He comes on the clouds twice? I cannot find that anywhere in the Old or New Testament..Scripture says He will return after the tribulation and all eyes will see Him.

It also says that He will reign on Earth for a thousand Years...When He gets here it will be for Judgment day. He does not come on the clouds twice...When He comes back He will be staying awhile- like a thousand years...

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

It appears when studying scripture that Jesus calls with a great shout and the Church goes to meet Him in the air. Then He and the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming later where He sets foot on the Earth---the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4

Ask yourself a question...why does Apostle Paul say 'we who are alive and remain'...Because Jesus will return and destroy the wicked from among the just. The rapture is not going to happen the way you think it is...I think you better go read the whole PDF very carefully because it completely destroys the rapture theory. as well as a whole bunch of other false prophecies like the delayed 70th week of Daniel that the precious 'rapture theory' hangs upon...

TC

 

[Euphemia]

So then Jesus comes back twice? That contradicts scripture friend...

I knew you would get on that old bandwagon. No, Jesus doesn't RETURN twice. He calls for His Bride and then He comes with His Bride--WHERE ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM COMING. Get a clue.

 

[The Town Crier]

It appears when studying scripture that Jesus calls with a great shout and the Church goes to meet Him in the air. Then He and the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming later where He sets foot on the Earth---the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4

I want to apologize for a statement I made...
I said " It is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about". I am sorry for that. I should not have said that... The Lord calls us to be like Timothy and have patience. I repent of that behavior and would like to I am say sorry for it.

Having said that- you have that wrong friend..Jesus comes for the bride. Read the Parable of the wise and foolish virgins... They will be on earth and ready to go meet Him when He calls. Notice it doesnt say they are raptured...


TC

 

[Euphemia]

Ask yourself a question...why does Apostle Paul say 'we who are alive and remain'...Because Jesus will return and destroy the wicked from among the just. The rapture is not going to happen the way you think it is...I think you better go read the whole PDF very carefully because it completely destroys the rapture theory. as well as a whole bunch of other false prophecies like the delayed 70th week of Daniel that the precious 'rapture theory' hangs upon...

TC

The Rapture isn't going to happen the way you paint it. You cannot destroy what God's word clearly teaches, so your little PDF isn't worth too much to me.

 

[The Town Crier]

I knew you would get on that old bandwagon. No, Jesus doesn't RETURN twice. He calls for His Bride and then He comes with His Bride--WHERE ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM COMING. Get a clue.

How does He call for His bride and then come for her? And what scripture supports that theory?
TC

 

[The Town Crier]

The Rapture isn't going to happen the way you paint it. You cannot destroy what God's word clearly teaches, so your little PDF isn't worth too much to me.

Again- how many times does Jesus come back in the clouds? only once- after the tribulation...

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of troubleand distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Th 4:17 hen we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are going against the words of Jesus. He said He comes after the tribulation...The only way your theory works is if Jesus comes in the clouds twice which is found nowhere in scripture. Does the 'day of the Lord' happen twice?
TC

 

[Euphemia]

How does He call for His bride and then come for her? And what scripture supports that theory?
TC

What? You don't grasp how there will be a great shout announcing the Bridegroom, who whisks His waiting Bride away to the Wedding?

Just as the bridegroom would come for the bride in the middle of the night, with a shout and the sound of a shofar, so the Lord will come for us. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[Euphemia]

Again- how many times does Jesus come back in the clouds? only once- after the tribulation...

Jesus comes back to Earth only once with His Bride to take up His earthly throne and to rule with her for a thousand years.

You are going against the words of Jesus. He said He comes after the tribulation...The only way your theory works is if Jesus comes in the clouds twice which is found nowhere in scripture. Does the 'day of the Lord' happen twice?
TC

Yes, He comes after the Tribulation. I do not go against God's word. I don't have a theory. I have what God says.

 

[The Town Crier]

What? You don't grasp how there will be a great shout announcing the Bridegroom, who whisks His waiting Bride away to the Wedding?

Just as the bridegroom would come for the bride in the middle of the night, with a shout and the sound of a shofar, so the Lord will come for us. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

You misunderstood the question or I misunderstood what you were saying. It sounded like you wrew saying that Jesus called the 'bride up to Heaven and then later came for her...sorry? misunderstood you.

Back to the scriptures at hand. The day of the Lord only happens once. and it is after the tribulation. He only comes on the clouds one time chief...
TC

 

[Euphemia]

In all of scripture and throughout all of history and the in coming days, there have been and will be altogether MANY Days of the Lord.

 

[The Town Crier]

Jesus comes back to Earth only once with His Bride to tak up His earthly throne and to rule with her for a thousand years.




Yes, He comes after the Tribulation. I do not go against God's word. I don't have a theory. I have what God says.

Now we are kind of on the same page...He comes after the tribulation and rules on Earth with His bride for a thousand years...that lines up with scripture. Now since He cannot come on the clouds twice, that means when He comes on the clouds, we will not be with Him but waiting for Him to show up. 'For we know not the day nor the hour when the master cometh'...


TC

 

[Y'shua friend.]

It is important to understand that no where in Yeshua gospel did He or any of His Apostles ever teach: " Just ask Yeshua to come into your heart and you will be saved," or "Just believe that Yeshua died and was resurrected on the third day, and you will be saved." Lets look at what the gospel says: Luk 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Mar 6:12 " So they went out and preached that people should repent."

Act 26:20 " but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance."

2Co 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

As for works, Yeshua and His Apostles teach throughout to keep the ten commandments: Mat 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Yeshua is referring to Yah moral ten commandment laws.

1Jn 5:3 " For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mar 10:19 "You know the commandments: 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'DO NOT MURDER,' 'DO NOT STEAL,' 'DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,' 'Do not defraud,' 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER."

Now it is not uncommon to hear from the podium, "we are no longer under the law, but under Yah grace." This is a deceiving half truth, the only laws that were annulled were the Mosaic laws of various sacrificial offerings which became fulfilled on Calvary:
Heb 10:1 "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

Heb 7:11 "Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."

Where there is no law, there is no need of repentance, since without Yah law sin would not exist. (Rom 7:8-11). Shalom!