An honest question to cessationists

[Major]

It is widely accepted that in physics, if you design an experiment to test whether light behaves like a wave of something, wave-like behavior is observed. But if you design an experiment to test whether light is composed of particles (photons), behavior specific to particles will be observed. If you design an experiment to confirm one model while disproving the other, either ambiguous results are produced or assumptions used in the setup are shown to be problematic.

As I stated prior, I do not belong in a Pentecostal church. I follow the leading of the Spirit as He makes His will known to me. That does not require that I denounce the teachings of those churches. I do believe that these issues are unnecessarily divisive.

My confidence in the Christ and the Bible is not threatened by those that come to Him from differing views. My rightness (if I may use that term) is not dependent on the wrongness of other views.

A Christian needs to have an understanding of the Holiness of the personal God, and our inability to live up to His requirements.
A Christian needs to understand that the Holy God became flesh and personally bore the penalty for our sin.
A Christian is one who has personally accepted Christ's payment for his personal sin.

There are a lot of things that are good to also do and to know. It is good to commit to following God's leading and to strive to live a life pleasing to Him. It is good to know the theology behind the simple truths above. It is good to fellowship with other Christians and learn from them and help them learn. It is good to spend time in prayer. It is good to study and meditate on His word.

None of those good things are necessary for salvation. None of those things need to be identical to what other Christians do or think.

There are false teachers and false doctrine, but to deny that the Holy Spirit is working though other churches does not promote His kingdom.

None of this should be taken to imply that these are unimportant. A Christian should know why his church teaches what it does. A Christian should also be aware of alternative views and the Biblical teaching from their point of view, but these should be approached in a spirit of understanding rather than trying to turn some other church into a copy of yours, or to impede their witness.

I truly believe that this family squabbling among our brothers causes great harm, both to unbelievers, and to the less mature believers.

Absolutly correct. Very well said.

 

[Major]

One thing I feel I need to say about all of this "opinion" talk is this: not all of what people say in here is opinion, some of it is fact and truth. Someone not seeing or understanding a truth does not make it any less true. Now, this is true for all truth thought of as opinion. If there a two opposing opinions on a black and white subject then one of them HAS to be truth and the other error. Truth is not relative.

I agree totally and that is the reason why Scripture MUST be posted as a basis for truth so as to limit ones opinion or denominational teaching.

Psalm 119:160.........
The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Daniel 10:21 ...........
But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

John 17:17............
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth

 

[Mykuhl]

Are you referring to the tongues as evidence issue or the that which is perfect issue?

I am referring to the sign gifts being in use today/having ceased issue.

 

[Major]

I'd like to ask the cessationalists here to explain what their favourite scripture they base their belief on means when it says:

1. "For now we see in a mirror, dimly but then face to face..."

and

2. " ...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

1.
Seems to me that Paul is referring to the incident in Numbers 12:8.........
"With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

On another occasion Paul says the writings were an enigma compared to the revelations contained in the gospel and that is found in 2 Corth. 3:12-13.

2.
The gifts we have been talking about, and they are said by Paul in his own words to be "Temporary and will cease". It seems to me that he knew and understood that complete maturity will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus either at death or the Rapture. It is at that time we will achieve complete maturity and perfect knowledge.

It means that the gifts are fragmentary and only a means to an end. His advice is to keep our eyes on the goal and not on the means towards achieving that end.

 

[Mykuhl]

I agree totally and that is the reason why Scripture MUST be posted as a basis for truth so as to limit ones opinion or denominational teaching.

Psalm 119:160.........
The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Daniel 10:21 ...........
But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

John 17:17............
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth

Major,

May I ask why you interpret the scriptures that you referenced to mean that the sign gifts have ceased as that the "perfect thing" talked about is the bible?

I realize that you have stated reasons why you believe this in scripture but I why do you view it in this manner while others(such as myself) view those scriptures differently? You mentioned that it doesn't derive from a denominational bias. But it has to come from somewhere if you hold your current view so strongly.

 

[aha]

1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

if we use that verse as to support of "cease" of "tounges" , i think we need to take the 2 as well "prophecies" and "knowledge"....

surely, we know in part....

 

[Mykuhl]

2.
The gifts we have been talking about, and they are said by Paul in his own words to be "Temporary and will cease". It seems to me that he knew and understood that complete maturity will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus either at death or the Rapture. It is at that time we will achieve complete maturity and perfect knowledge.

It means that the gifts are fragmentary and only a means to an end. His advice is to keep our eyes on the goal and not on the means towards achieving that end.

See, this precisely we are saying that the sign gifts still are and need to be in operation today. Because complete maturity for us will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus at death or the rapture. That it why I said earlier that Paul was saying that these sign gifts will end when that time comes and not before. That is why I believe that the "perfect thing" mentioned is love...perfect love.

 

[eric m williams]

...Agreed. It is NOT plainly stated. Neither is the Rapture. IN fact my dear brother, the existence of God is never explained is it...

The fact that it is not plainly stated is the issue. You are making a concrete statement without concrete backing. As to the rapture, (based on some of your other comments, I'm guessing you follow the pre-trib ideology?) that is another issue entirely.

... IN fact my dear brother, the existence of God is never explained is it...

Directly, not so much, but scripture plainly states that creation is evidence.

... Now I encourage YOU to do the work and instead of surging the web to find a site that you agree with, do the real work of Bible study and not what someone else says.

I have spent a good deal of time in discussion with those trained and literate (as is possible) in the original languages. Some of whom I have agreed with and some not, and I've been shown where I was wrong more than once. I learned very early on in my walk with Jesus that much of what is taught is wrong.
It is also the reason that I make such a point of seeing where the doctrine a person professes as biblical actually is stated in the bible.

Your implication that I only look at things which support what I say is wrong, dismissive, and rather demeaning. I suggest refraining from such comments in other discussions. They tend to lead others toward simply tuning you out as it suggest that they only disagree because they haven't looked themselves.

..."I dare to say that the only things which can be perfect are God Himself and anything directly created by Him."

How then do you explain Adam and Eve? Did they not SIN !!! Were they perfect? YES but did they stay that way????...

To expand on what I stated (and this occurred to me afterward). One the will of man comes into play, then perfection is lost.
When correction is needed, then the thing corrected is by definition not perfect.

 

[aha]

1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

if we use that verse as to support of "cease" of "tounges" , i think we need to take the 2 as well "prophecies" and "knowledge"....

surely, we know in part....

We are all speakers here, we can relate to Paul as a speaker…

When as speaker: when we emphasize on something: we set instances or examples: 3 instances was mentioned: Prophecies, Tongues, Knowledge….. will cease…

That is: a SET….

If we take out one of the set, to support a position, without taking out the remaining 2, hmmm…. that can be a fallacy ….imo....

We are currently without ceasing yet, know in part…

 

[Euphemia]

1.
Seems to me that Paul is referring to the incident in Numbers 12:8.........
"With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

On another occasion Paul says the writings were an enigma compared to the revelations contained in the gospel and that is found in 2 Corth. 3:12-13.

2.
The gifts we have been talking about, and they are said by Paul in his own words to be "Temporary and will cease". It seems to me that he knew and understood that complete maturity will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus either at death or the Rapture. It is at that time we will achieve complete maturity and perfect knowledge.

It means that the gifts are fragmentary and only a means to an end. His advice is to keep our eyes on the goal and not on the means towards achieving that end.

Actually the entire verse points to the perfect yet to come where we will behold Jesus face to face and will know just as we are known...all in perfect keeping with our relationship with Jesus...which is speaking about the perfect yet to come, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. It is not speaking of the bible.

 

[Lanolin]

Prophecies..can fail in that years pass before we ever see them come to fruition...cos its on Gods timing.
Tongues cease when we stop talking...
Knowledge vanishes away cos we forget things.

But charity (love) never fails. Look at how when theres an earthquake and people dying and buried under rubble, we would run to help others. Or...someone abandons a child..someone who picks this child up and gives it love, and cares for it, will not fail.

In a spiritual emergency, what would you have, someone prophesy, speak in tongues or try and educate you? No, sometimes all we need is a hug from God.

 

[Euphemia]

Prophecies..can fail in that years pass before we ever see them come to fruition...cos its on Gods timing.
Tongues cease when we stop talking...
Knowledge vanishes away cos we forget things.

But charity (love) never fails. Look at how when theres an earthquake and people dying and buried under rubble, we would run to help others. Or...someone abandons a child..someone who picks this child up and gives it love, and cares for it, will not fail.

In a spiritual emergency, what would you have, someone prophesy, speak in tongues or try and educate you? No, sometimes all we need is a hug from God.

Prophecy never fails, if it is from God. Some prophecies made over 2500 years ago are still valid and coming to pass. Tongues never fail because the Church of Jesus Christ is till availing herself of it, and the gift of knowledge continues, and that has nothing to do with your cerebral collection of information, either. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation everywhere and always.

 

[CCW95A]

I understand completely what you are saying and I understand why. However, can you now explain how the grammatical Greek can be changed in order to make the "Perfect" a person instead of a "thing".

The Greek word translated as "perfect" is the word teleion. in the passage of 1 Corinthians that we are discussing. It means something that is complete, perfect, whole, full-grown, ripe, mature, or adult. The word can be used in the nominative or accusative form, it refers to a single thing, and can refer to something that is either masculine or neuter. The fact that it is "that which is perfect" and not "he who is perfect" indicates that we are referring to a thing (neuter) and not a person.!!!!

How can we change that to make it mean the Lord Jesus Christ or even His 2nd Coming????

Something to consider is that the same word is used in James 1:25.........
"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

Interestingly, despite contentions elsewhere, this particular word is not used in connection with Christ, though it is used to describe mature Christians in I Corinthians 2:6; Ephesians 4:13; James 1:4.

"Perfect" is not a "thing" , it can only be a person, and just to make sure we do not get it wrong he uses the analogy of a person going from a child to a full grown man.

tel'-i-os "Perfect" (Strong's Concordance)
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

1Co 13:10.. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11.. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

"Perfect" is not a "thing" , it can only be a person, and just to make sure we do not get it wrong he uses the analogy of a person going from a child to a full grown man.

tel'-i-os "Perfect" (Strong's Concordance)
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Since God is perfect no man shal ever be perfect but we can be perfected unto His image and ways.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

if we use that verse as to support of "cease" of "tounges" , i think we need to take the 2 as well "prophecies" and "knowledge"....

surely, we know in part....

Yes there will come a time when it will all vanish but the word of God will always be. This is not the time these things will be gone. As long as there is life in our beings and this entire thing has not been finished yet there will be tongues and everything else.
God Bless
Jim

 

[CCW95A]

Since God is perfect no man shal ever be perfect but we can be perfected unto His image and ways.

Brother, see that word "mature" in this scripture, it is the exact same word used in that which is "perfect" is come.

Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature (perfect) think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.

If this was not possible then the five fold ministry is useless, as that is exactly what their job is to do.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Major]

"Perfect" is not a "thing" , it can only be a person, and just to make sure we do not get it wrong he uses the analogy of a person going from a child to a full grown man.

tel'-i-os "Perfect" (Strong's Concordance)
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

1Co 13:10.. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11.. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

You used the wrong Greek word!!!! You posted the word TEL'-I-OS.

The word used by Paul is actually Teleion !!!

Again, 3 times now I have said that the Greek phrase so translated in most translations is teleion--neuter in gender, not masculine. In this context (in 1 Cor. 13:8-10) it is set over against, or contrasted with, ek merous, which most translations correctly translate "in part."

Teleion is the neuter form of teleios, which the Greek lexicons tell us means complete as opposed to incomplete, mature as opposed to immature, final (form), whole, perfect, full as opposed to partly full. How in the world can anyone think that can apply to Christ or His 2nd coming is way beyond my understanding. If you want to do that, fine with me. I am not arguing the case just presenting grammatical evidence.

Arndt & Gringrich give as the first definition, "complete, bring to an end, finish, accomplish" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1957], p. 816). Just what word or words best translate it in a given place is determined largely by the context. This is important to keep in mind.

Many people read the common translation of to teleion ("that which is perfect") and fixate on this word PERFECT. Immediately they ask themselves, "Who or what is perfect? (usually thinking "WHO is perfect" more than "WHAT is perfect?"). And they think of "perfect" in the sense of absolutely flawless, or totally without sin, perfect as Jesus or God are perfect, perfect as Heaven is perfect. That is not the case here no matter how much we try to make it that.

Now, considered apart from the context that thinking might be okay. But we have to consider 1 Cor. 13:10 in the light of two things:
1) the context, and
2) the common or core meaning of to teleion.

Considered in that light "the teleion" of 1 Cor. 13:10 does not refer to Christ, the second coming of Christ, or Heaven.

 

[CCW95A]

You used the wrong Greek word!!!! You posted the word TEL'-I-OS.

The word used by Paul is actually Teleion !!!

Again, 3 times now I have said that the Greek phrase so translated in most translations is teleion--neuter in gender, not masculine. In this context (in 1 Cor. 13:8-10) it is set over against, or contrasted with, ek merous, which most translations correctly translate "in part."

Teleion is the neuter form of teleios, which the Greek lexicons tell us means complete as opposed to incomplete, mature as opposed to immature, final (form), whole, perfect, full as opposed to partly full. How in the world can anyone think that can apply to Christ or His 2nd coming is way beyond my understanding. If you want to do that, fine with me. I am not arguing the case just presenting grammatical evidence.

Arndt & Gringrich give as the first definition, "complete, bring to an end, finish, accomplish" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1957], p. 816). Just what word or words best translate it in a given place is determined largely by the context. This is important to keep in mind.

Many people read the common translation of to teleion ("that which is perfect") and fixate on this word PERFECT. Immediately they ask themselves, "Who or what is perfect? (usually thinking "WHO is perfect" more than "WHAT is perfect?"). And they think of "perfect" in the sense of absolutely flawless, or totally without sin, perfect as Jesus or God are perfect, perfect as Heaven is perfect. That is not the case here no matter how much we try to make it that.

Now, considered apart from the context that thinking might be okay. But we have to consider 1 Cor. 13:10 in the light of two things:
1) the context, and
2) the common or core meaning of to teleion.

Considered in that light "the teleion" of 1 Cor. 13:10 does not refer to Christ, the second coming of Christ, or Heaven.

Is this not the right word? My Bible gives me this #number. Is your Bible different from mine?

G5046

τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

 

[Major]

Major,

May I ask why you interpret the scriptures that you referenced to mean that the sign gifts have ceased as that the "perfect thing" talked about is the bible?

I realize that you have stated reasons why you believe this in scripture but I why do you view it in this manner while others(such as myself) view those scriptures differently? You mentioned that it doesn't derive from a denominational bias. But it has to come from somewhere if you hold your current view so strongly.

It comes my friend from the literal interpretation of those Scriptures. They are what they say they are and no more and no less.

The numbers mean nothing to me. If this whole site agreed with you and the others it simply would not matter to me.

I can not se how the words "WILL cease" and "will fail" can be ignored and rejected.

The only question then is WHEN will that happen? Allow me show you what happens.

OK. Lets say that it is Jesus. That is one of the arguments posted. He is perfect and has come. So then that answers the question.
BUT when you understand the meaning of the actual literal words by Paul they do not fit Christ.s incarnation. He is NOT MATURE. He is God!!! He is NOT set over against, or contrasted with, ek merous, which most translations correctly translate "in part." Christ is certainly not IN PART as the meaning says.

So what do we do???? We change it again. The perfect then must be the Church. The Church is the PERFECT!!!
BUT wait, does the church look perfect to you???? It is made up of sinners and some go right on committing sin while a member of the church. How then can that be called perfection????? Perfection being like heaven of course, without flaws.

So what do we do????? We change it again!!! We make the PERFECT the 2nd Coming of Christ. Do you see what is going on??? Go back and read the comments on just this thread and you will see that these explinations have all be tendered. WHY??????? Because the actual literal words and meaning are rejected.

BUT again, we know that the 2nd Coming of Christ is not the PERFECT because Revelation 20 tells us that there will be a rebellion at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ. That rules out the PERFECT being the 2nd Coming because ALL sin will not be eradicated until Satan is placed into the lake of fire.

Now what do YOU think is going to be the explination of the PERFECT after people read what I just posted??????

Change it to another event? Maybe the next explination will be that the PERFECT is the Lake of Fire.

 

[Euphemia]

Paul used "teleios", referring to being of full age, mature, complete, and when one reads the entire passage, one knows that it is about the Kingdom of Christ coming, and the Person of Christ, which is the completion of the Church age, and the one referred to when it is said, "we see...then face to face" and, "shall I know even as I am known", which can only refer to the Person of Jesus Christ. One doesn't encounter a bible face to face, nor is known by the bible.