Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?

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tezriLi said:
SO disagree. Since you somewhat challenged me in your post #138 above, possibly the main problem Arminians have is that they believe they have full control of their thoughts and actions. As to the Arminianism I was IN, we were little gods unto ourselves, totally in control of both achieving our salvation (by our choice) and in losing it (by our choice). We decided. ("I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, No turning back, No turning back.")

And I see your post just posted. G-d can't do whatever He wants? He is not omnipotent?
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You are stuck like all Calvinists on the notion that Omniscience + Creator + sovereign = no free will = God is impartial.

The correct equation is to take those facts /verses and add the other facts / verses...as all of scriptures definitions of God are.....facts. We then arrive at the correct conclusion of God....

Omniscience + Creator + omnipotent + sovereign + Cross (the time God limited His power 100% and made Himself an object for us to torture) + God is good + God is just + God is impartial / no respecter of persons = free will = limited omniscience / God limits it for us.

Conclusion: Calvinism is a half truth. Not an evil one. But still not one that prompts the unsaved to get saved imho.
 
I wrote, "SO disagree. Since you somewhat challenged me in your post #138 above, possibly the main problem Arminians have is that they believe they have full control of their thoughts and actions. As to the Arminianism I was IN, we were little gods unto ourselves, totally in control of both achieving our salvation (by our choice) and in losing it (by our choice). We decided. ("I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, No turning back, No turning back.")

"And I see your post just posted. G-d can't do whatever He wants? He is not omnipotent?"

KingJ said:
You are stuck like all Calvinists on the notion that Omniscience + Creator + sovereign = no free will = God is impartial.

The correct equation is to take those facts /verses and add the other facts / verses...as all of scriptures definitions of God are.....facts. We then arrive at the correct conclusion of God....

Omniscience + Creator + omnipotent + sovereign + Cross (the time God limited His power 100% and made Himself an object for us to torture) + God is good + God is just + God is impartial / no respecter of persons = free will = limited omniscience / God limits it for us.

Conclusion: Calvinism is a half truth. Not an evil one. But still not one that prompts the unsaved to get saved imho.
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:)

You changed the subject I used to omniscience in order to try to prove your point against what I had written. I wrote omnipotence. I have no idea why you would do that. :)

Arminians and Reformed use the Very same Scriptures to prove their points.

I have written on this site (In this thread? I really don't know.) that Arminians ought to spend years as convinced Reformed, and Reformed ought to spend years as convinced Arminians. Then, they would be able to discuss this subject.

In the Arminianism I was in, they determined all Reformed to be hell-bound. Glad to see that you at least afforded us "a half truth!" . . . Seriously!!
 
God would that none should perish.
If Calvinist Predestination is true, then God most certainly did wish that many, in fact most, would perish, thuis making the first statement a blatant lie.
Predestination makes God a murderer, because He then would be creating beings who have no option, no choice, but to suffer for all eternity, and that is EVIL.
 
tezriLi said:
I wrote, "SO disagree. Since you somewhat challenged me in your post #138 above, possibly the main problem Arminians have is that they believe they have full control of their thoughts and actions. As to the Arminianism I was IN, we were little gods unto ourselves, totally in control of both achieving our salvation (by our choice) and in losing it (by our choice). We decided. ("I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, No turning back, No turning back.")

"And I see your post just posted. G-d can't do whatever He wants? He is not omnipotent?"


:)

You changed the subject I used to omniscience in order to try to prove your point against what I had written. I wrote omnipotence. I have no idea why you would do that. :)

Arminians and Reformed use the Very same Scriptures to prove their points.

I have written on this site (In this thread? I really don't know.) that Arminians ought to spend years as convinced Reformed, and Reformed ought to spend years as convinced Arminians. Then, they would be able to discuss this subject.

In the Arminianism I was in, they determined all Reformed to be hell-bound. Glad to see that you at least afforded us "a half truth!" . . . Seriously!!
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Far from hell-bound! In a similar bracket to OSAS ....that bracket being that you are so close to God that you can't imagine being without Him. You feel secure and safe with Him. Which is great! God is great! and does keep us! But it so important that we not be selfish with Him. He loves those going to hell as much as you. He wants them all to be with Him.

Maybe after a couple more ''months'' as a reformed you will go back to Arminian ;).
 
KingJ said:
Far from hell-bound! In a similar bracket to OSAS ....that bracket being that you are so close to God that you can't imagine being without Him. You feel secure and safe with Him. Which is great! God is great! and does keep us! But it so important that we not be selfish with Him. He loves those going to hell as much as you. He wants them all to be with Him.

Maybe after a couple more ''months'' as a reformed you will go back to Arminian ;).
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:) Very unlikely, but that was good!) I've been Reformed since @ 1997, before I was booted out of the Arminian church. How long is that . . . 16 years?

Initially, I was convinced of the Reformed doctrine because the Arminian people were so sinful, yet they did not admit it. There they were, riddled with sin, unconvinced of it, and therefore, it remained unforgiven. Unforgiven, they kept repeating the same sins over and over, adding to those sins other sins. I watched this horror grow and grow, until I called out to G-d for a reason, for insight. According to their own doctrine, they were hell-bound, yet they kept on preaching, kept on teaching, kept on believing they were a holy people. My cry was, "G-d! They say that others who do the same things are going to hell! Please don't let this be!" Then I learned that others of the Arminian belief were the same. That was shocking. I thought it was only in that church.

Hidden sin. At least Reformed persons admit they are sinners. At least they ask for forgiveness.
 
tezriLi said:
Hidden sin. At least Reformed persons admit they are sinners. At least they ask for forgiveness.
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I would think the opposite. Why ask if you believe you are chosen?

tezriLi said:
:) Very unlikely, but that was good!) I've been Reformed since @ 1997, before I was booted out of the Arminian church. How long is that . . . 16 years?
Initially, I was convinced of the Reformed doctrine because the Arminian people were so sinful, yet they did not admit it. There they were, riddled with sin, unconvinced of it, and therefore, it remained unforgiven. Unforgiven, they kept repeating the same sins over and over, adding to those sins other sins. I watched this horror grow and grow, until I called out to G-d for a reason, for insight. According to their own doctrine, they were hell-bound, yet they kept on preaching, kept on teaching, kept on believing they were a holy people. My cry was, "G-d! They say that others who do the same things are going to hell! Please don't let this be!" Then I learned that others of the Arminian belief were the same. That was shocking. I thought it was only in that church.
Hidden sin. At least Reformed persons admit they are sinners. At least they ask for forgiveness.
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The light attracts the bugs ;).
 
↑I had written: "Hidden sin. At least Reformed persons admit they are sinners. At least they ask for forgiveness."
KingJ said:
I would think the opposite. Why ask if you believe you are chosen?
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That is part of the problem with Arminians, Reformed, and in general, most Christians: they just think. They imagine. They suppose. They come up with what "makes sense" to them, rather than asking the questions of those most likely to know the answers.

Had you asked someone of the Reformed persuasion, you would have learned that the majority of true Reformed believers are very conscious of their imperfection and seek G-d continuously to "walk in the light," not just keep "slip-slidin' away."

KingJ said:
The light attracts the bugs ;).
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Now, King. Was that nice? :oops:
 
tezriLi said:
Now, King. Was that nice? :oops:
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I didn't mean it in contrast to your church. I am sure there are bugs there too. We can't judge doctrine by the floozies that attend a church though. Besides, I would ''expect'' more bugs to believe in OSAS then Arminian. Arminian requires them to deal with their sin and repent sincerely or hell, as you said. Ie, It is pure coincidence.
tezriLi said:
Oh. And omnipotence . . . ?
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What about it?
 
It changes nothing. Add omnipotence to my equation in post 142 and the result is the same.

Omnipotence = unlimited power. What are you doing when you say God ''cannot'' give free will? Sounds to me like limiting Him. It is actually ironic :). Our human brains are so limited and we don't even grasp that. That's why we use scripture to define God and not our opinion.
 
KingJ said:
It changes nothing. Add omnipotence to my equation in post 142 and the result is the same.

Omnipotence = unlimited power. What are you doing when you say God ''cannot'' give free will? Sounds to me like limiting Him. It is actually ironic :). Our human brains are so limited and we don't even grasp that. That's why we use scripture to define God and not our opinion. We must look to see where the evidence is pointing!
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Did I write that, or did you suppose I did?

(I need to "hit the sack" before I have to get up for work. (The ZZZZZZzzzzs are starting to wrap around my head.)
 
Which part? Good night!

Dream of how good God is! Think on what Peter grasped in Acts 10:34 ...How God chooses not to show partiality...to anyone! Because He is greater then our idea of 'great'.
 
tezriLi said:
May I please caution against using common dictionaries to define biblical words? :)
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See that's the problem "free will" is not in the scriptures... it's a choice. The phrase "free will" is made up to excise God out of any decision process when in reality it's a choice and only if the choice is given.

John 7:16-18 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Even then, it's a choice in the Greek:

- Original: θέλημα
- Transliteration: Thelema
- Phonetic: thel'-ay-mah
- Definition:
1. what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a. of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b. of what God wishes to be done by us
1. commands, precepts​
2. will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
- Origin: from the prolonged form of G2309
- TDNT entry: 03:52,3
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Neuter

So this brings up the matter of choice:

John 8:43 (KJV)
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (KJV)
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

No one can be drawn to God without being called.

Matthew 22:14 (KJV)
For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Notice not ALL are called... but it is the will of God that all be saved. That's an enigma eh? :D

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How can one act on something they know nothing about. If I told you you could fly by whatever means and you did it and you flew then you'd know how. Until you learn how will you know? Marcus Robertson is a blind virtuoso and he used to play with only 8 fingers because no one ever told him he could use his thumbs! Why do you think the scriptures are filled with stories and examples? So we can learn "that" is possible. But too many pick and choose and lose out because of dogma, tradition and pride.

That's scripture.
 
Just a thought: When God told Abraham about the coming destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, Abraham began to "negotiate" ....I believe it came down to 10 righteous men - if there were 10 righteous men living in the condemned cities - they would not be destroyed. (I assume the 10 could be women as well :)). Are we our brother's keeper - is it possible the true faith of the few could save us all? We are told to love our fellow human beings, believer or not. It's the only half way convincing argument I have for a pre- trib rapture - that like Lot - the evil is too wide spread. And I think Lot was taken out, only because of God's love for Abraham - not because he was righteous. But doesn't that mean we didn't pray hard enough for our brothers/sisers to see the truth?
 
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