Annihilationism

[Mitspa]

With respect, you have not answered my questions.
Though the general trend of this thread may well be about the tenure of torment, I honestly believe the true source of, and the nature of 'afterlife' torture would be germane to the topic.
For example, is the lake of fire itself the tormentor?
Is there some 'big bruiser' of an angel poking everyone with a 'spiritual' cattle prod?
Personally I don't go with the later, I just say by way of example.

Well it appears you have spent some time reflecting on that issue? Im kinda simple about some things and am very convinced that some things are not explained for a reason in the scriptures, but should just be taken at face value. Its a "lake of fire" that God has established to punish Satan and those fallen and rebellious angels, and those men who follow him into this punishment. If you have some thoughts based upon the scriptures or just your own ideas? I would be glad to listen...

 

[calvin]

Yes I have spent a little time studying this aspect of things.
Let me pose another question. There are passages that suggest expulsion from the Lord's presence for ever and ever.
Does this mean that a condemned person will sit outside the camp for ever, or does it just mean that they will never be admitted to paradise?
Explanation: The Lord can destroy a soul in Hell, Gehenna, Hades,Tartarus whatever but the Lord could surely bring that soul back from oblivion if He chose to do so. For nothing is impossible for God.
It is possible that the Lord could utterly destroy a soul and leave it at that, never bringing it back That would be eternal banishment without conscious loss.
It is also possible that a damned soul could suffer that status of damnation consciously for ever and ever.
Either way it is eternal.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes I have spent a little time studying this aspect of things.
Let me pose another question. There are passages that suggest expulsion from the Lord's presence for ever and ever.
Does this mean that a condemned person will sit outside the camp for ever, or does it just mean that they will never be admitted to paradise?
Explanation: The Lord can destroy a soul in Hell, Gehenna, Hades,Tartarus whatever but the Lord could surely bring that soul back from oblivion if He chose to do so. For nothing is impossible for God.
It is possible that the Lord could utterly destroy a soul and leave it at that, never bringing it back That would be eternal banishment without conscious loss.
It is also possible that a damned soul could suffer that status of damnation consciously for ever and ever.

Do you have a certain scripture? so that I might see if there is a context to help understand what you are asking?

 

[calvin]

You need to study the whole of the relevant scriptures. Looking at just one passage is the best generator of false doctrine I can think of just now.
We need to include a study on Jesus' take on death...hint look at what he had to say about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Mitspa]

You need to study the whole of the relevant scriptures. Looking at just one passage is the best generator of false doctrine I can think of just now.
We need to include a study on Jesus' take on death...hint look at what he had to say about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I know what I need, I need to look at each scripture in context. The best way to create false doctrine is to just make scripture mean what you want it to mean according to what you are trying to prove. So do you have a scripture that relates to the point you where trying to make and that YOU ASK ME to explain. How can I explain a truth of scripture if I don't know what scripture you are asking me about?

 

[MichaelH]

I think you need Hades to be hell because otherwise the parable of Lazarus and the rich man doesn't support your position.

Post your Scripture then, Michael!

Post my verses about Gehenna? Your seriously joking right? I mean... Ha... ha.. right? I gave you 3 already.

Also asking me to post scripture? As if I might not have any? What does that even mean when you don't read the ones I already posted?

Can you go back and remember what I said Gehenna was?

Am I wasting time here?

However, I have a map of hell............. yep................ Ken's hell. Amazing how someone could map Gehenna like that, but they did. The wonders of technology, right?

A Map of hell as things were in place back in the day.



Gehenna being excavated to find cool stuff. No people screaming in pain, Ken must have been right, they all burned up.



As you can see............ Ken's Hell does not really look hot enough to consume a Human spirit............ Bad sunburn maybe......

Sometimes it seems like your on the ball, at others I get very concerned.

GOT QUESTIONS?

 

[dgsinclair]

Anyway, there are still some verses that give me some trouble (mainly in Revelation) but I think that I am a pretty firm believer in annihilationism/ conditionalism now.

Listen to podcasts 4 and 7 over at rethinkinghell.com, they discuss the relevant passages in depth.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Father in the name of Jesus, may your light shine in the darkness here. May your truth spring forth as a fountain of living waters. May understanding be opened and may the true believer cling to your will. May your Holy Spirit pour forth fruit and may discernment be alive in all words. I pray that you watch over your people so that they know the truth. In the name of Jesus I pray.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Listen to podcasts 4 and 7 over at rethinkinghell.com, they discuss the relevant passages in depth.

Coolio. I added rethinkinghell to my RSS feed because I just figured out how RSS feeds work. I'll check them out tomorrow!

I haven't read Revelation many times. (just three) and since it's not brought up that often I don't really get a chance to read it often. The few times I have read it though makes me feel like it would be hard to take anything literally out of it.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Father in the name of Jesus, may your light shine in the darkness here. May your truth spring forth as a fountain of living waters. May understanding be opened and may the true believer cling to your will. May your Holy Spirit pour forth fruit and may discernment be alive in all words. I pray that you watch over your people so that they know the truth. In the name of Jesus I pray.

What darkness? The people insulting others is what I'm assuming you're talking about.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

With respect, you have not answered my questions.
Though the general trend of this thread may well be about the tenure of torment, I honestly believe the true source of, and the nature of 'afterlife' torture would be germane to the topic.
For example, is the lake of fire itself the tormentor?
Is there some 'big bruiser' of an angel poking everyone with a 'spiritual' cattle prod?
Personally I don't go with the later, I just say by way of example.

I still have to backtrack, however, the tormentor is self. Made in God's image people spiritually create evil when not in faith. When unsaved this evil is still upon them and they themselves in their own grief (lack of faith), own sorrow (lack of faith), own hatred (lack of faith), own etc., etc. etc. (because without God all is evil manifestation) keeping the person in bondage.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

What darkness? The people insulting others is what I'm assuming you're talking about.

No, I confidently say that there is deception here. I came home and God asked me to write the prayer.

 

[Huntingteckel]

I still have to backtrack, however, the tormentor is self. Made in God's image people spiritually create evil when not in faith. When unsaved this evil is still upon them and they themselves in their own grief (lack of faith), own sorrow (lack of faith), own hatred (lack of faith), own etc., etc. etc. (because without God all is evil manifestation) keeping the person in bondage.

Are you saying that nonbelievers are incapable of doing good?

No, I confidently say that there is deception here. I came home and God asked me to write the prayer.

Who do you think is being deceptive? I'm not berating you for the prayer or anything. I always appreciate prayer.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

I still have to backtrack, however, the tormentor is self. Made in God's image people spiritually create evil when not in faith. When unsaved this evil is still upon them and they themselves in their own grief (lack of faith), own sorrow (lack of faith), own hatred (lack of faith), own etc., etc. etc. (because without God all is evil manifestation) keeping the person in bondage.

In fact, the lack of faith is what keeps everlasting torment, everlasting. Hope of escape of end of suffering is not since there is no hope. God does not even need to perpetuate anything this is what sin does.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Are you saying that nonbelievers are incapable of doing good?

Who do you think is being deceptive? I'm not berating you for the prayer or anything. I always appreciate prayer.

There is the world's view of good and God's view of good.

"No one is good--except God alone" (Mark 10:18). The goodness is not the act the goodness is the spiritual in the act. Someone can give great amount of food to the poor (and even if not any secret motive other than to help others which is obvious evil in the spiritual, the act is not good because the spiritual in the act is not of faith and it is faith in the only source of goodness that makes the act good).

Now I haven't even finished the second page of this thread, and this thread is my first hearing of annihilationism, yet God told me to pray because this belief is deception.

Every sin is destruction, every sin is death. It is man made. Not God made.

 

[Huntingteckel]

There is the world's view of good and God's view of good.

"No one is good--except God alone" (Mark 10:18). The goodness is not the act the goodness is the spiritual in the act. Someone can give great amount of food to the poor (and even if not any secret motive other than to help others which is obvious evil in the spiritual, the act is not good because the spiritual in the act is not of faith and it is faith in the only source of goodness that makes the act good).

Now I haven't even finished the second page of this thread, and this thread is my first hearing of annihilationism, yet God told me to pray because this belief is deception.

Every sin is destruction, every sin is death. It is man made. Not God made.

Just because the church teaches something doesn't make it right. If you haven't researched it I suggest you do that before deciding it's a lie from Satan.

*edit*
So, if an atheist gives to the poor it doesn't count as a good act but if a Christian gives to the poor it is a good act?

 

[dgsinclair]

wow, your more confused than Ken. Now the question is, do I waste my time with you. First if you believe Jesus told a parable who Jesus quoted Abraham, then you accuse Jesus of Slander and claiming someone said something they did not. Unlike all other parables, Jesus gave a place and name.

Calm yourself Francis. Look in just about any Bible and you will see Luke 16:19-31 (rich man and Lazarus) with the heading of 'The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.' Most evangelical scholars (not liberal) agree on this, and yes, if that is true, Jesus put words into Abraham's mouth. You are right, if this is a parable, it is unique, and its status as a parable is hotly debated.

But you are straining at gnats here, and did not answer my point. Since the man was in Hades, and his brothers were still alive, even if you take this story as literal (I'll allow you to still be considered a serious student of the word and take exception to the majority on this), it can not be applied in support of any doctrine of post resurrection judgement, and certainly it says nothing about the duration of hell.

There is ZERO scripture that say Sodom was burned with Eternal fire............ NONE!!!

I am glad you are familiar with the relevant passage in Jude. However, good commentators disagree. Many translations indicate that sodom itself was burned w eternal fire, but I'll grant you that the fire from heaven which consumed them may have been only a type of the eternal fire to come. I don't buy your somewhat less mainstream argument that the fire is only reserved for the angels, but even if I grant that, your conclusion regarding what eternal fire is or does is suspect.

If the fire that destroyed and consumed Sodom is a type of the eternal fire to come, why would you assume that fire would not consume its targets? Because you assume that eternal fire means that it WON'T ever fully consume its target, but must burn eternally into the future. I just don't see that as the most likely understanding of what eternal means here. Just like 'eternal redemption' means 'accomplished for all eternity,' not 'eternal redeeming,' it is more likely that eternal fire permanently destroys.

Your discussion of buildings is a bizarre straw man, take your meds dude. I've taken mine

I am sorry, I don't have the time to debate with a novice. What i posted here was more than good enough.

Dude, learn how to engage with less insults, more graciousness toward others (ESPECIALLY your 'inferiors'), and don't be so dogmatic, as if your view of the passages is correct, and all who disagree are apostate, liberal, deceived, ignorant, or deceivers sent to kill the flock. I too hate to repeat myself to 'novices,' but here we are having a discussion. I hope my points were good enough for a discussion.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Calm yourself Francis. Look in just about any Bible and you will see Luke 16:19-31 (rich man and Lazarus) with the heading of 'The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.' Most evangelical scholars (not liberal) agree on this, and yes, if that is true, Jesus put words into Abraham's mouth. You are right, if this is a parable, it is unique, and its status as a parable is hotly debated.

But you are straining at gnats here, and did not answer my point. Since the man was in Hades, and his brothers were still alive, even if you take this story as literal (I'll allow you to still be considered a serious student of the word and take exception to the majority on this), it can not be applied in support of any doctrine of post resurrection judgement, and certainly it says nothing about the duration of hell.



I am glad you are familiar with the relevant passage in Jude. However, good commentators disagree. Many translations indicate that sodom itself was burned w eternal fire, but I'll grant you that the fire from heaven which consumed them may have been only a type of the eternal fire to come. I don't buy your somewhat less mainstream argument that the fire is only reserved for the angels, but even if I grant that, your conclusion regarding what eternal fire is or does is suspect.

If the fire that destroyed and consumed Sodom is a type of the eternal fire to come, why would you assume that fire would not consume its targets? Because you assume that eternal fire means that it WON'T ever fully consume its target, but must burn eternally into the future. I just don't see that as the most likely understanding of what eternal means here. Just like 'eternal redemption' means 'accomplished for all eternity,' not 'eternal redeeming,' it is more likely that eternal fire permanently destroys.

Your discussion of buildings is a bizarre straw man, take your meds dude. I've taken mine



Dude, learn how to engage with less insults, more graciousness toward others (ESPECIALLY your 'inferiors'), and don't be so dogmatic, as if your view of the passages is correct, and all who disagree are apostate, liberal, deceived, ignorant, or deceivers sent to kill the flock. I too hate to repeat myself to 'novices,' but here we are having a discussion. I hope my points were good enough for a discussion.

LOL
Dude, my wife is asleep so give a warning before you make a post that causes me to burst out in laughter.

 

[dgsinclair]

The Word used for a human body, but was never used for our spirit man....

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.(Apollumi)

According to your definition of Apollumi (Destroy) How can Jesus save those that are lost Apollumi?

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Your destroyed Word can also be used for someone that is lost and needs the Lord ken............ How about that?

It seems you've made Kens point here. If the word can be used in more than one way, why must it always mean either destroy or ruin? Context and usage. Read this article to see why we don't buy your logic. http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/10/the-meaning-of-apollumi-in-the-synoptic-gospels/

Jesus never mentioned the spirit of man, did he Ken? You have to go into the land of Make believe to say the spirit can be destroyed. Your teaching something you can't back up. We just don't Assume things when teaching God's word, it's dangerous.

Michael, like you, I am a tripartite man devotee. However, we must be careful of the many mistranslations of the word soul in older translations, and use of the original words in Greek and Hebrew. Even psuche is used many different ways in context, sometimes referring to a part of man, sometimes to the whole man, etc. in this instance, it may refer to both soul and spirit, or merely to the non corporeal part. I am not trying to weasel out of your argument that soul and spirit are non-synonymous (I agree), but the bible's use of soul is not consistent, and pinning it down here may not lead where you think it must.

I guess you are saying that god will torment and ruin the souls of the unregenerate, but keep their spirits intact? That is one possible interpretation worth further consideration.

For an informative, and sometimes infuriating discussion of soul in the bible, check out Joel Green's lecture, he's essentially a mono partite guy. Really interesting contribution he makes, though I disagree on at least half . One main point is that the use of the English word 'soul' in translations has plummeted over the years as translators have realized it's many uses in the original languages, requiring other more specific english words.

Also Ken, Explain Revelation on how the smoke of their torment is Eis Aion, Aion if they are actually destroyed.

Revelation is not literal, it is symbolic. The symbols mean something. The verbiage used above is copied from Isaiah in which THE EXACT SAME IMAGE is used to REPRESENT the total, permanent destruction of Edom. The following comes directly from the Explore section of rethinkinghell.com

If it were not for this passage and one other in Revelation, what is now the traditional view of hell may never have developed. The angel promises that beast-worshippers will be tormented with fire and the smoke thereof goes up forever, which seems to suggest that their torment goes on forever. He also says they will have no rest day or night, suggesting that their restlessness will never come to an end. The challenge to conditionalism seems obvious.​

But equally obvious should be the fact that the vision given to John consists of highly symbolic and apocalyptic imagery, so it must be interpreted carefully. The imagery of restlessness and smoke rising perpetually from torment may not actually communicate eternal torment, any more than a seven-headed, ten-horned beast (Rev 13:1) ridden by a prostitute with the name of a city on her head (Rev 17:3-6) communicates a future reality like something pictured in a horror movie.​

So then what does the imagery in this portion of John’s vision communicate? The harlot Mystery Babylon is seen tormented as well (Rev 18:7,10,15) and smoke from her torment also rises forever (Rev 19:3). But with respect to the city the harlot represents the interpreting angel says, “Babylon the great city [will] be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more” (Rev 18:21), borrowing language from Ezekiel 26:20-21, a prophecy concerning the destruction of the city of Tyre fulfilled long ago: “you will not be inhabited . . . you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again.”​

So this imagery of smoke rising forever from torment, when interpreted in the light of the Old Testament source it is quoting from, communicates permanent destruction that leaves lifeless remains. This should serve as no surprise to students of the Old Testament; the imagery comes straight from Isaiah 34:8-10 which describes the fires which long ago destroyed the city of Edom and have since dissipated: “Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever.” Edom is not literally burning to this day, smoke is not still rising from its remains.​

The imagery of smoke rising forever communicates the permanency of Edom’s destruction and that of Mystery Babylon. Therefore, the smoke rising from the torment of the beast-worshippers amounts to imagery communicating their permanent destruction as well.​

I am about done trying to help you, and your going to wish you would have listened.

I withhold my snarky comment here.

 

[dgsinclair]

Do you guys know each other?

So now we turn to that old trick of pointing to others faults to cover ones own? Better be careful some of the mods here might not agree with your new tactics...

I know only ken, he let me know this thread was here, so I came to see what was up. No conspiracy here. Not yet. I could call in the troops