Zechariah 12:10

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Katy-follower, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. As I understand it, Zech 12:10 is one of the preconditions of Christ's second coming.

    There will be no second coming until Israel's plea and confession that they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. He will not return until they look to the one they pierced, and cry out for Him to return, mourning for Him. Through much tribulation we're told the remnant/12 tribes will do this.

    Matthew 23:37-39: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "

    Hosea 5:15: "I will go and return to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

    Some christians have told me that Zech 12:10 has been fulfilled already. I can see that part of it has, because we know Christ was crucified and pierced, but Israel are still blinded. Other Christians tell me that the Jews will literally see Him first and will then mourn, and they draw reference to when all shall see Him coming in the clouds. But this can't be before Israel are saved, because Christ will not return until those 2 things I mentioned.

    Before there can be a cleansing of Israel's sins, and before there can be a Second Coming, Israel must first look to the one they have pierced and mourn for Him as a person that mourns for their only son. As I quoted in Matthew, before Jesus will come back, Israel must plead for Him to return, with the words "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (the confession first and then the plea for His return). They don't see Him until these two things happen.

    Just like the Jewish leaders once led all to reject Jesus, the Messiah, the leaders will some day lead many Jews to the acceptance of Jesus.

    Hosea 6:1-3: Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth"

    From what I have studied, it will be in the last 3 days of the tribulation. Jesus returns at the request of the Jews. Scripture says this will happen in the future.

    It's my belief that the gentile church is not here when this happens because God's focus is on Israel and it's at their request that Christ will return.

    What are your thoughts on this?
  2. Basically, there are those of us who are post-tribbers and would disagree. These types of discussions involving the timing of the Rapture are generally frowned upon because it is fruitless. Each side is pretty well grounded in their respective beliefs and I know of very few converts from one side to the other.
    If you had left out the pre-trib bit you might've had a pretty good thread going in which we all could've participated.
  3. Too late to edit it now :eek:

    My aim wasn't to focus in on the rapture or sway a person on their beliefs. I only added that Christ's second coming is based on preconditions pertaining to Israel and not the gentile church. Just my beliefs, but this wasn't really to discuss that.

    Just wanted to get thoughts on this scripture, because there is one group believing that Zech 12:10 was fulfilled when Christ died, that all mourned from His death... and there is another group that believes the remnant will see Him return in the clouds and then mourn, whereas I believe He returns after they are saved.. after the preconditions mentioned, that the mourning is before.

    Anyone got any thoughts on what they agree with and how your view relates to scripture?

    I find discussions like this to be a great way to learn, as they encourage study.

    We should be like the Bereans :)
  4. Personally, I don't see any merit in claiming to be a pre tribulation or a post tribulation believer.
    If we want to study the word of God, we need to have an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us. A closed mind lets in no light.
    If the Spirit illuminates a scripture, we need to be willing to display a teachable spirit. When we align ourselves with any particular camp. we are no longer teachable.......that is elementary.
    Welcome Katy Follower... by the way.
    Rusty and Katy-follower say Amen and like this.
  5. I think some have misunderstood the actual purpose of this thread :(
  6. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I never study scripture with the goal of defending/supporting my particular view on things. To do so would lead to so many errors and we know that anyone can twist scripture to fit with what they choose, as all the false religions out there are doing it. I read scripture for the truths that are revealed.

    I thought this would make an interesting discussion, is all...
  7. I am on your side Katy.

    I have always been one who allows the Scripture to say what they mean not what I want them to say.

    Zech. 12:10 says.............
    "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

    Rev. 1:7
    "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

    Scripture say........"House of David" which can only mean the Jews.
    "The inhabitants of Jerusalem can only mean the Jews.
    "They look upon the one whom they pierced can only mean the Lord Jesus Christ.

    As I said.........the Bible speaks for itself and it does so clearly.

    The key once again is the fact that the Jews are back in the Land and the date was May 14, 1948. That is a literal fact and it is the one that allows for everything to come to fullfillment in God's prophetic Word.

    It means that God is not finished with Israel and the tribulation of 7 years yet to come is future and God will deal with Israel.

    Drs. Scofield, Ironside, Gill, Spuregon and Pentacost believe that chapters 12-14 form one continueous prophecy. The context and theme of which is the Return of the Lord and the establishment of the Kingdom.
    Katy-follower likes this.
  8. So under the guise of a "bible study" we go straight into pre-trib indoctrination?
  9. Dan......that is always going to come through just as the post millinnial and mid tribulation will.

    It is simply a fact that can not be dismissed or talked around when dicussing the end times.

    BUT...........it can be done with humility and civilness as you always do.
    Katy-follower likes this.
  10. Ugh Major. You just killed me with kindness. OK... lol. Igive...I give...I'll leave this thread to you guys so you can talk this thing out. Peace brothers.
  11. I am LOL! I love you man and your spirit is clean and proper and you speak clearly. God bless you !
  12. Would love your thoughts though. As Major said... allowing the Scripture to say what they mean and not what we want them to say. We all have different views with eschatology, which is expected, but we should be able to discuss scripture regardless of these differences :)
  13. So would you agree that this is the same event, but that the House of David will mourn before His return when they realize what they've done... but when He appears in the clouds all the world that sees Him will mourn. Both speak of mourning and His second coming, but scripture says the Jews mourn before His return. I imagine all would mourn when he returns though :)

    This would be the remnant? The 12 tribes? I believe Jesus is the only way, so the only way for the Jews to be saved is through Him. Scripture seems to point to a time when they will look to Him and realize what they've done :)

    The fig tree? I need to read some more about this. I think that when the Jews return to Israel this will also be another sign. I imagine the tribes (who we don't know where they are) will be among those that return.

    What of the 2 witnesses? Will they be from 2 of the tribes, do you think? So many have different thoughts on this, as Elijah never died and was present at the transfiguration.
  14. Thanks for encouraging me to go read more about Elijah. Will study this area soon :)
  15. Yes Katy, we are in agreement.

    As for the two witnesses, they will be Jews who will preach the gospel for 3 1/2 years from the temple and will be killed at the mid point.

    I do not believe that they will be Elijah and Enoch because they did not die.

    I see no logical reason why God would Rapture them and then send them bak to die.

    "...And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And it is he who will go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Luke 1:16-17
    Notice the words.............."In the spirit and power of Elijah".

    These 2 men will IMO have the ability do stop the rain and call down fire from heaven just as did Elijah.

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