I would have to say that Psalms are not just songs my dear but Prayers and cries from the heart unto God."sung psalms" do not HAVE to be accompanied by instruments, but they most often ARE. Psalms are not just songs to be sung, but music to be played. God has ordained it to be so!
It is obvious we do not need to be plagued with what certain sects do. We are free in Jesus Christ to worship God in any way the Spirit leads, even if it with spoons on our knees.
What is really dangerous is the closed up views of those like yourself who want to put God in a box. He will NOT stay there.
Worship through music
- Thread starter AndrewB93
- Start date
Yes, Jim---all included, but in keeping with this topic, it is important that Grant knows the accepted meaning of the word psalm:
ψαλμός
psalmos
psal-mos'
From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a psalm); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm.
Yes Euphemia one could look at it this way. I dont understand this it is important that grant see it this way thing....lol
However lets look at it biblicaly shall we.........
This reveals many different ways in which a believers over several centeries related to God.
You find, joy and sorrow and victory and defeat and repentance and praise and struggles and faith and doubt and so much more.
Psalms teaches us How God is concerned with His people and thier situations or problems and if we turn to Him He will be there to Help and deliver. To view Psalms as songs to be sung seems to belittle them.
Title of thread worship through Music............Not worship through Psalms.........Or have I totallyt missed it here ? lol
Blessings
Jim
It is a false belief that says that musical instruments employed to the glory of God in worship and praise is unbiblical and unnecessary. It is a legalistic "doctrine" of men.
Musical instruments mean nothing out side of the heart of those who bring them.
Example........the worship team is playing all the right songs and playing as good as they ever have but their minds are busy else where..........
Example........How many more songs are left to do and what time is it cause we gotta get moving here for me and Billie Sue are goen down to the lake to catch us a bunch of catfish and makes us some corn bread in the ol cast iron skillet and have us some saw mill gravy.
Their music is to no effect and will only bring human praise
Now then if their hearts were busy in aw of God and drawing into a deep praise and worship of God then YEA their music and instuments have now become A PART OF their worship but not the worship.
I dont believe any one is saying it is not biblical but rather NOT required. It is just like anything else we do before God - it is all about the heart and motives.
God Bless
Jim
That really isn't scriptural doctrine, at all. If even tongues, a spiritual gift, doesn't edify if there's no-one to interpret, how could the sound of a lifeless instrument edify?
Only the Spirit himself can do the work of edification - we have no natural input into that. We express what the Holy Spirit gives us by way of impressions, prophecy, teaching, interpretation. This is all directly, solely the work of the Spirit.
There's no scriptural connection between natural talents and edification, none whatsoever. If there was, I'm sure you could've directed me to it by now. This whole doctrine is purely an attempt to make something of the first man, the old man, Adam. Not letting him have any scope whatsoever allows a free reign for the second Man, the heavenly Man. If we're to be filled with the Holy Spirit, something has to be displaced first - everything I am, everything I pride myself in, all that I am in my own estimation. If we're in the good of the typical teaching of the sin-offering, then we wouldn't think of these things as having any value in the service of God, not for a moment. The earthen vessel in which the flesh of the sin-offering was boiled had to be broken (Leviticus 6:28) - a man must be utterly broken in his own estimation, and the estimation of all his talents and abilities, if he's to be acceptable as a worshipper before God. If we understand the bearing of the sin-offering (and all the offerings) then we understand something of the immense, incomparable work and Person of Christ. We come to know Him as the only acceptable offering, to which nothing could be added. Anything else is "strange fire" (Leviticus 10:1), the product of man's mind. That should be a word of caution to us, because it wasn't a stranger or a heathen that made this fatal error of offering strange fire, it was Nadab and Abihu, Aaron's sons. They should've known better. They knew what priestly service was before God. They knew what the acceptable offering was. Yet the mind of man still intruded. These things can, and do, come in among real believers - very many are attempting to offer "strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them." Nothing but spiritual gifts is mentioned in relation to the assembly, nothing else is commanded. Every time the children of Israel contravened God's commandments, the distance between Him and them increased. While our standing before God is fixed and unchangeable, in Christ, our state is something we have to be mindful of. We'll only be kept in a right state by total dependence on God, and obedience to His commandments.
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I should be clear that I haven't said that musical instruments employed in the praise of God is unbiblical. Musical instruments certainly were employed in praise, in a past dispensation.
I do maintain the musical instruments are unnecessary in Christian worship. To state positively that they are necessary would mean that the believer is incomplete and not fully equipped with what the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit have done and are doing. It would also mean that an unbeliever who cannot play an instrument is at a disadvantage before God, not only among believers, but compared to unbelievers, many of whom can play musical instruments very skillfully. Indeed, the father of those who handle the harp and pipe, Jubal (Genesis 4:21), was of the line of Cain - at a distance from God and cut out of Adam's genealogy. Lamech's sons were the inventors of agriculture, music and tool-working - all things which are useful and pleasurable to mankind, but all of which are connected with the earth and a scene which is shortly going to pass away.
Legalism is an attempt to please God by adhering to the law. This is not what I'm speaking about. On the contrary, the doctrine which insists on musical instruments brings the believer back under the law, subject the earthly ordinances. If we were consistent with that doctrine, we should bring back physical sacrifices, offerings and priestly garments, and be worshipping in a physical tabernacle.
What about if there is no music and the singing is terrible? This would interfere with our connection with God, for distractions around us hinders our worship.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Clearly songs are for edification also. All includes everything in that verse.
Also in chapter 14:
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Same verses in NLT:
13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.
15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand. 16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks very well, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.
Here we see that just like praying, singing is also for others' edification.
Now for musical instruments, Paul gives reasons to do certain things to help them be open to the message of the Gospel. He does this to help them identify with him and be on common ground, not seeing him as a foreigner.
1 Corinthians 9:
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
To those of us raised with the influence of musical instruments, even Rock n Roll, bite my tongue...... , the use of instruments, even loud ones like drums, bring people who identify with this music to a place where the Gospel can reach them and touch them deep within their soul, softening the heart allowing for change.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Clearly songs are for edification also. All includes everything in that verse.
Also in chapter 14:
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Same verses in NLT:
13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.
15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand. 16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks very well, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.
Here we see that just like praying, singing is also for others' edification.
Now for musical instruments, Paul gives reasons to do certain things to help them be open to the message of the Gospel. He does this to help them identify with him and be on common ground, not seeing him as a foreigner.
1 Corinthians 9:
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
To those of us raised with the influence of musical instruments, even Rock n Roll, bite my tongue...... , the use of instruments, even loud ones like drums, bring people who identify with this music to a place where the Gospel can reach them and touch them deep within their soul, softening the heart allowing for change.
I revisited Colossians 3:
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved (group of believers, the Church), put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another (each 'one another' means as a group, else it would be just 'others'); even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body (the Church); and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another (where else would you teach and admonish in wisdom but the assembly of the Church?) in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts (plural) to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Songs are for worship and edification and music is not excluded anywhere in scripture for this purpose. In fact, Paul uses examples of instruments to draw an analogy to using unknown tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
I included surrounding verses to show context. He makes the point that instruments need to be played as in a melody to be recognized. The distinction of the sounds is what makes known the song, otherwise it is just a bunch of noise. You won't know to go to battle without the proper tune or sounds played. From this verse 9 we can glean that the music should be easily understood just like the words you speak should be.
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved (group of believers, the Church), put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another (each 'one another' means as a group, else it would be just 'others'); even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body (the Church); and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another (where else would you teach and admonish in wisdom but the assembly of the Church?) in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts (plural) to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Songs are for worship and edification and music is not excluded anywhere in scripture for this purpose. In fact, Paul uses examples of instruments to draw an analogy to using unknown tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
I included surrounding verses to show context. He makes the point that instruments need to be played as in a melody to be recognized. The distinction of the sounds is what makes known the song, otherwise it is just a bunch of noise. You won't know to go to battle without the proper tune or sounds played. From this verse 9 we can glean that the music should be easily understood just like the words you speak should be.
I've been at a lot of gatherings where that is the case - the singing is slow and we drop pitch at the end of every verse. How irritating that can be! At times I've found myself thinking resentful thoughts about my brethren, particularly those who linger over the last line of every verse, dragging the pitch even further down. Then I realise that these thoughts are the enemy's attempt to spoil the occasion. When I realise this and throw myself in dependence on the Holy Spirit... well, the most tuneless singing in the world couldn't break in on my joy. It's a delightful to be united in praise with the brethren, all singing the same song.
Yes, songs are for edification. Hymns and spiritual songs which have a sound scriptural basis are food for the soul - they present impressions of divine Persons. I wouldn't put them on the same level as the inspired word of God, but they are spiritual food.
I agree, absolutely.
Yes, this is true, but it doesn't really bear on musical instruments. Paul didn't draw people in through entertainment. He entered in to their convictions and their circumstances. To reach the Jews, he voluntarily accepted restrictions. To reach the Gentiles, he laid aside everything which pertained to the Jews, whom he still loved as natural brethren, as we see from the Acts. To reach the weak, he entered into their circumstances of weakness. Paul entered into the circumstances of each, not thinking of himself for a moment. It was sacrifice for him to be all things to all men, not ease or compromise. Even so, his mission was to gain them, taking them out of their circumstances and into a whole new sphere.
I would say that these things are all applicable to the assembly, but not exclusively to the assembly. The brethren socialise (if you'll forgive that expression) at times other than when gathered in assembly, and local brethren meet one another in the course of their everyday lives. There are opportunities for teaching and admonishing one another at other times - and would one really admonish a brother or sister in front of the whole assembly? I would think that would be a personal matter between two brethren. I think singing in our hearts would be something we could do anywhere. We could do it at work, at home, in the street. It's a secret spring of life and joy in the barren wilderness in which we walk. As I say, I wouldn't say that none of these things would characterise us in assembly. I believe that it's what would result from our being in assembly, that we would go about our lives and our interactions with one another in a way which is suitable to the assembly.
I agree that songs are for worship and edification, and the scripture clearly associates singing with Christian worship. It's the only music that the Lord Jesus Himself is connected with in His pathway here (Mark 14:26).
The apostle uses an analogy, which of course isn't to be taken literally. If we take the trumpet as a literal thing, we must take the battle as literal as well. He says that instruments are "without life giving sound" - if their sound is not life-giving, then what use is it in the assembly? I think this shows us that music in itself is not edifying.
When the apostle Paul uses the word "even" in this way, he's often pointing to something of a much lower standing to demonstrate a higher truth, such as in 1 Corinthians 11:14. In this case he is saying, in effect, "Even such base things as musical instruments must be clear in their sound, so how much more so something intended for edification?"
Nope. It is being suggested that musical accompaniment in worship is not only not required, but that it is unbiblical and should NOT be done, as it is carnal in nature.
I am edified every time I speak to God in tongues. No interpreter is needed. THAT'S scriptural.
A piano can be used to bring edification to anyone who hears it as the person playing it exalts the Most High God!
I suggest you let Holy Spirit do His job in and through His people, and especially in and through those who are musicians and serve God in their gifting.
You are dead wrong, and speaking out of a legalistic kind of indoctrination.
A law of your own making is to do without musical instruments in worship. We don;t have to have them, but to fully deny them is a problem due to a legalistic view.
Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war......... the battle is real, just spiritual.
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
I think it is read "even things without life <pause> giving sound" as in even things giving sound which are without life in and of themselves.
I didn't have much time before to give another translation for verse 7
Here is NLT:
7 Even lifeless instruments like the flute or the harp must play the notes clearly, or no one will recognize the melody.
The "Even" does compare something of lesser importance, but it still makes the point that Paul was not against the use of instruments in worship, or else he would not use this as an analogy. He was saying that compared to the tongue and mouth, which are living parts of the body, instruments by themselves are lifeless, yet both must make sounds (speech or tune/melody) recognizable by the assembly or audience.
It is not required and I dont see where any one is saying it is un-biblical.
In Fact Grants own words here (((( I should be clear that I haven't said that musical instruments employed in the praise of God is unbiblical. Musical instruments certainly were employed in praise, in a past dispensation.
I do maintain the musical instruments are unnecessary in Christian worship. )))
So why keep beating a dead horse here. lol It aint gonna get up and ride.. rofl
Blessings me friend
Before we get into a topic wich is frowned on i want to say this about the clasic argument on tongues. When it is talked about how speaking in tongues doesn't edify if there's no-one to interpret,---------------this is ONLY speaking about in a church service.......Order in the church.
This has not one thing to do with praying in the spirit ( which is tongues ) in a gathering of believers prayting etc. It is as to keep a smooth running order in the church service.
I only added this because it does not need to be added to I am going to prove my point list.
OBTW Grant I apologise for using your post here but it was the first one I found as I scrolled back looking for this topic...........
Blessings
Jim
Since the beginning, the Church has worshiped musically with voice and instruments.
Yes doing so and being required are two different things. It is NOT required but is a good thing.