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Why Did Jesus Have To Be Born Of A Virgin ?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Fish Catcher Jim, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. I thought it would be fun to see how you think or belive in the reason Jesus was born by a virgin ........
    So Please post your answers.
    Thank You and
    Blessings
    Jim

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    Cturtle likes this.
  2. These are MY thoughts as I discerned from the scriptures. Eve ate and nothing happened, Adam ate and they fell. If you read the narrative, you’ll see that Adam was with Eve when she ate. It was like seeing if something would happen, and since nothing did when Eve ate, she convinced him to eat. This is why Adam said the “woman deceived me”. The genetic code for sin is passed down via the father in the code part governing the blood, since Adam was head of all. The genetic code in the fruit changed Adam and Eve. I actually believe that their spirit housed their bodies, but after they fell, their bodies housed their spirit. This is why they were “found” naked. They were before the fall, literally images of light, after the fall, they were as we are now.

    The scriptures state that the life is in the blood. Science has proven that the mother's blood is not shared or passed to the fetus at all. This is how sinful Mary could have a sinless Child. It is the ultimate example of the spiritual affecting the physical; proof of God’s promises, and the sole advantage Jesus had over us in this life. But by it, He paved the way and freed us all from sin. Just my two cents.
     
    Cturtle, Fish Catcher Jim and Where is the Messiah says Amen and like this.
  3. That is an excellent thesis my brother. Could we say that the immaterial (the Spirit) and the material (Mary’s womb) were both involved. Mary could not impregnate herself, and in that sense she was simply a “vessel.” Only God could perform the miracle of the Incarnation which He did through the Holy Spirit.

    To deny a physical connection between Mary and Jesus would imply that Jesus was not truly human but the Scripture teaches us clearly that Jesus was fully human, with a physical body like ours. For that to be true He would have had to it from Mary. At the same time, Jesus was fully God, with an eternal, sinless nature because He was God-17.)

    Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature and to enforce your comment It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father as seen in Rom. 5:12, 17 & 19. So then The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.......The God-Man!
     
  4. Abdicate made a great distinction between Adam and Eve and Mary and Jesus. As Christ was the new Adam, Mary was the new Eve -- each fulfilling what the first two people could not. Jesus is the New Covenant while Mary would be the Ark of the New Covenant.

    This fulfillment would be fitting in God's plan that Christ be conceived by the Holy Spirit of a woman immaculate free of original sin. In Luke 1:28 when Gabriel appeared to hear, her referred to her by a title as was the custom then: full of grace.

    Like Major said, Mary could not have impregnated herself, but nor would Christ be conceived through the seed of man. And this is also noted in Genesis 3:15 in referring to the woman's seed, that her offspring would bruise his head.

    It was all done by the grace of God.

    Naturally, you will get VERY different responses, but each of us are giving our answers.
     
  5. We were made sinners because we were "in Adam" when he sinned. The only way to save man would be by another "Adam" who would come "bearing precious seed" inside himself (in Christ), which would be his Church. There by the last Adam being Holy, and by fulfilling the law that brought condemnation to man. This last Adam would satisfy the demands of punishment on sinful man by dying on the cross which caused his seed within him to die also so satisfying the laws demands that required our death. (I am crucified with Christ) Yet Jesus did not deserve death as he was sinless, and when he arose from the dead we also rose from the dead bringing us back to life for ever more in him (and hath raised us up, and made us sit together...). The virgin birth was necessary so that as in the first Adam all die, but as in Christ (the last Adam) all shall be made alive. Being sinless by the virgin birth was a must before God's plan could be carried out.
    We became righteous in exactly same way we became sinners by being in the first Adam to then being in the last Adam.

    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

     
    Cturtle and Major say Amen and like this.
  6. Hello Lysander! Always good to talk with you. You and I have had this conversation before and I have no intent on confrontation but I would like to make sure that those reading our words understand that the view of .......
    "As Christ was the new Adam, Mary was the new Eve -- each fulfilling what the first two people could not. Jesus is the New Covenant while Mary would be the Ark of the New Covenant."....
    Is a Catholic teaching and not supported by the Scriptures.

    The 1st problem in that thinking, is that Scripture does not teach that it was Eve who brought sin into the world. Scripture explicitly declares that the head of every woman is man; That in teaching words is called "FEDERAL HEADSHIP".
    That means Eve was under the headship of Adam; therefore, Adam was Eve’s, as well as all subsequent humanity’s federal representative. Paul explains to us that “sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men

    Rom. 5:12 ................
    "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned have sinned".

    We also know that NO human being ever born was sinless because the Scriptures clearly say in Romans 3:23........
    "ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

    By this one verse in Romans 5:12, Paul has forever demolished the foundation of the supposed “beautiful symmetry” between Eve and Mary, for responsibility for the entrance of sin into the world, as well as its consequence of spiritual/physical death and the spread of sin and death to all men (all humans), is attributed to the federal representative through Adam, not Eve.

    Now in response to............."Jesus is the New Covenant while Mary would be the Ark of the New Covenant."

    Jn.1:14 says to all of us ....
    ..." the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory".

    In the Greek the word dwelt is "skeinoo" from the Hebrew word shekinah which was the word for God residing in the tabernacle. Jesus clothed himself in human flesh as is told to us in Phil.2:5-8, so then the ark was His body it had carried the creator of the universe. It was not Mary who was the ark Jesus’ body was the tabernacle.

    Mary is not the fullness of Graces the scripture is clear on this particular matter. The law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ and it does state of his fullness we have received grace by grace. (Titus 2:11) For the grace of God has appeared to all men.

    Through all of the letters in the Bible we find Grace to you and peace from God our father and the lord Jesus Christ. There is no Mary involved in dispensing grace.
     
    CCW95A likes this.
  7. Major, you know I enjoy your company and discussing.

    That said, because we've had this discussion before and we each know our positions (I believe I am being Biblically accurate and you believe you are being Biblically accurate and we each thing the other person is in error), I think we should recognize that neither one of us will be convincing the other.

    I only shared my belief as was asked from the OP. I hope you understand.
     
  8. Absolutely I did! I was only seeking to make sure everyone else did as well. No more no less.
     
  9. If Mary was sinless, then she would not have needed a savior.

    Mary said.....
    Luke 1:47.. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
     
    Fish Catcher Jim, Cturtle and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  10. #10 LysanderShapiro, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    CCW, I think we've been over this in past threads. If you want to discuss, you know where to send me a message. Otherwise, feel free to refer back to this closed thread.

    Discussions like this can turn into bitter debates, and I do have a responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen.
     
  11. Brother, every thing we talk about on this forum has already been talked about before, no matter what the topic. Is this one of the banned topics that we are not allowed to talk about? After all you are the one that brought it up.
     
  12. Oh brother, I don't "imply" anything, it's too much like lying. I say what I mean and mean what I say, I may not just articulate it enough. Obviously Mary and Jesus were connected because her body fed Him. Jesus was 100% man and, pay super duper uber close attention here: He was 100% God, but He left that part at "home". He lived 100% as an obedient man so we could literally follow in His steps. He didn't know things. He needed things. He obeyed those in authority over Him. All these things are signs of His humanity, not His Lordship. He was only given ALL after He rose from the dead because of His obedience.

    See the problem people have living the real life of Christ (and I'm speaking of myself) is that we think Jesus did all He did because He was God, not as an obedient man. He did all He did by the power of the Holy Spirit by the will of the Father, not Jesus' will, not Jesus' power. This is why the Holy Spirit was sent to Him, poured out on Him, guided Him, ministered to Him, told Him things He didn't know. The Spirit allowed Him to see, hear and feel the Father's will and be obedient. When Jesus was raised from the dead, He breathed on His followers under the authority of His mission - having succeeded - and then He left them with a command to wait in Jerusalem. When He was glorified He sent the Holy Spirit to them 10 days later, and when we believe, to us all also, and then we have our own mission and authority and power. Everything on earth that comes from heaven comes via the Holy Spirit. He is the conduit between the spiritual and the physical. And when we too are obedient to the Spirit as Jesus was, we learn more and are trusted with more and more and more.

    People lift Jesus up to a level where they theologize away the very promises of God to us as unattainable because it was for Jesus alone as God instead of for us to follow the man Jesus, and that's wrong. This is why the church is so weak and has so little faith. Too many hold the historical Jesus as God when He was actually a man! He had ALL authority as God on earth, He chose to set it aside so He could become our great Intercessor, our High Priest.
     
    Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  13. Sorry brother. We'll differ on this point. Mary was indeed full of grace, just as we are. Grace is unmerited favor and doesn't mean she was sinless. She was born in sin and she needed a savior too. We're talking the physical genetic passing. She had her father's genes and her mothers all the way back to Adam and Eve as spelled out in the Gospels. God bless.
     
    Major and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  14. So, any comments on the virgin birth?
     
  15. I think we are in agreement that grace is unmerited and that she required a savior too. She had to receive grace in order to be saved. Her being full of grace wasn't caused by her own awesomeness. Rather, it was te awesomeness of God as he bestowed grace on her--and this was her salvation, from her savior.

    "But we see in scriptures that all have sinned."
    OR
    "Sorry, but you misunderstand the scriptures."
    OR
    "If she was conceive without sin, then that would still mean no savior is needed."
    OR
    "Then was Ann also free of sin if Mary was?"
    OR
    "Why would God give Mary this grace and not others?"
    OR
    "Mary isn't God."
    OR
    Etc. etc. etc.

    I think each of these responses were made by most who differ from what I believe, and they are all good question, but they have all been answered. No answer will change your mind just as none of the arguments will change mine. At this point, we really are beating a dead horse when we discuss this with the same exact states.

    No one here, including myself, has said anything new. We've been over this quite a bit. Why do this again?
     
  16. Naaaaaa brother, :sneaky: LOL :D
     
    Major likes this.
  17. Here we see the way in which we all receive the promises of God to be fulfilled in all our lives. Mary received faith to believe by hearing the Word of God given by the Angel. The angels words revealed the means in how this would happen, which gave Mary a vision as words paint images. Finally she agreed to what she heard and saw by faith completing it by speaking what she believed, there fore becoming the means in which the Son of God would enter the world. We should all learn to say, "let it done unto me according to your Word" which you have already spoken to me in your Word.

    Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

    Luk 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God."
    Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
     
  18. When a person becomes "born again" is that not the same thing as receiving the Word of God into our hearts, and then Holy Spirit coming upon us to give that birth? We to are born of the Word of God. We to are born of the Holy Spirit, and that Holy thing in us is the Son of God, and yet we are sinners!
     
  19. I think we already had a thread about original sin and personal sin.
     
  20. Jesus could not truly call God His real father if in fact a human being was his father. I think myself that Mary was artificially inseminated from a spiritual point of view
    with a created human which shared none of the dna of mary, she was a carrier.
     

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