What is Religion?

[bobinfaith]

Bob Hou r yuu I hope you well. Bob yes of course there be nothing wrong with enjoying the many cultural diversities and the many blessings that modern day society offers us. I was getting more to the point that humanity was originally meant to worship God. And within every human there be a void that the God can only fill when it comes down to seeking out the pursuit of contentment and happiness sadly a vast majority who deny or reject the one true God. Even ourselves as Christians try and fill that void sometimes with so many other things which are only temporary fixes that can never bring eternal happiness as God can. Bob continue to enjoy the things you enjoy with a clear conscience unless the Holy Spirit or scripture convict you otherwise.

Good morning, Prim90;

After reading your post, humanity was originally meant to worship God is very true and I agree wholeheartedly, reference the whole chapter of Isaiah 43.

Had I been born during the Old Testament, somehow, someway I would have sought God, found Him and love Him. Today I seek God Wholly and Holy. He also equips me through prayer and Scripture to do a self check each morning so I am not attracted to anything that would turn me from Christ (to religion) and making Him secondary.

Sure, I make mistakes and have screwed up so bad that a screwdriver couldn't fix. But in my life that is not the same as turning religious.

As MM shared I also love my spouse every which way. When I'm angry, in disagreement or disappointed in her, I still love her intimately. But I love God, first, so when I'm angry, in disagreement or disappointed with God I still worship Him.

That is not a religion, it is my humanity of worshiping God and sustaining my best in a moral ethic of love, compassion and passion for people.

I'm doing an early Sunrise Service this Sunday. At first I wasn't excited with zeal to serve but after I finished the outline of the message it began to sink in. Why did Christ go to the cross? It wasn't for religion, but for His unconditional love for each of us. Therefore, it brought me to my senses, to serve Him with a grateful heart this Sunday.

God bless you, Prim90, have a wonderful Resurrection Day this weekend.

Bob

 

[Musicmaster]

MM in one respect you be right in respect to the way we love our spouse which is both spiritually and physically. But even than a family can be known as a very religious family. Where as our religious well being is a spiritual matter and does not rely on a physical relationship or our physical well being. The meaning of religion be what it be a deep spiritual devotion to God. You be wrong to claim that the word religion or religious is a poor or inferior substitute.

Now I’m not entirely sure of which words you think are more superior or better placed than religious. Perhaps Christian, Saved , Born again, sanctified etc. I have no problem with any of those words . But at the same time I know full well if the fruit of the Spirit isn’t there then it is not the words that are inferior of their meanings. But only the people who lay claim to the words and who are not as they claim. MM It be they who have the failing and not the actual words . And so it is the same with the word religion or religious the word religion or religious is in no way inferior. Guess we would have to disagree.

There are many references to what and who we are in Christ, and religious is not one of the descriptors in the Bible. The Pharisees were religious, along with the Sadducees, and pagans are religious. Some of those people even refer to themselves as "spiritual." Given that we all have a spirit, we are all spiritual.

As to what I said about family, I think you missed my point. It is no more "religious" for me to believe in the existence of my mother and father than it is to say that it's religious to believe in the One who created them. Perhaps the confusion here is in the manner of devotion to the Lord that gets that label of "religion" flying around like a chunks of hardened lava from a volcano, being spewed in all directions. Many see their devotion to the Lord as a "religious" practice, and if that's what they want to do, then that's on them, not those who see devotion to the Lord as a relationship. None of the man-made gods throughout history sought "relationship" except those goddesses who were and are esteemed in brothels, some in the gutters and others in temples. They too are religious in their pursuit of evil pleasures.

Perhaps you were brought up and currently practice your devotion to the Lord in the compartment of religion and the exercises therein, and that's a freedom I'm not here to take from you or anyone else, but I like for others to know that I personally do not have a relationship with the Lord that falls within the confining restraints of religion. Like I said, anyone can be religious...even unbelievers.

From my perspective, religious ritual died with the temple and its priesthood, and therefore no longer has any defining hold upon us today who are in Christ and now filled with His Holy Spirit, which the ancient peoples before the cross did not have. When I was religious, I never could get that warmth of relationship and closeness with the Lord that I have with Him now. Perhaps you have that closeness too, only that you intermix religious practice and tradition with that, which is fine. I'm not here to judge any of that. It's just that many who walk by modern and historic "church" buildings tend to think about the rituals and practices within that mask the deeper, more intimate elements of a life in Christ and the freedoms therein.

MM

 

[Prim90]

There are many references to what and who we are in Christ, and religious is not one of the descriptors in the Bible. The Pharisees were religious, along with the Sadducees, and pagans are religious. Some of those people even refer to themselves as "spiritual." Given that we all have a spirit, we are all spiritual.

As to what I said about family, I think you missed my point. It is no more "religious" for me to believe in the existence of my mother and father than it is to say that it's religious to believe in the One who created them. Perhaps the confusion here is in the manner of devotion to the Lord that gets that label of "religion" flying around like a chunks of hardened lava from a volcano, being spewed in all directions. Many see their devotion to the Lord as a "religious" practice, and if that's what they want to do, then that's on them, not those who see devotion to the Lord as a relationship. None of the man-made gods throughout history sought "relationship" except those goddesses who were and are esteemed in brothels, some in the gutters and others in temples. They too are religious in their pursuit of evil pleasures.

Perhaps you were brought up and currently practice your devotion to the Lord in the compartment of religion and the exercises therein, and that's a freedom I'm not here to take from you or anyone else, but I like for others to know that I personally do not have a relationship with the Lord that falls within the confining restraints of religion. Like I said, anyone can be religious...even unbelievers.

From my perspective, religious ritual died with the temple and its priesthood, and therefore no longer has any defining hold upon us today who are in Christ and now filled with His Holy Spirit, which the ancient peoples before the cross did not have. When I was religious, I never could get that warmth of relationship and closeness with the Lord that I have with Him now. Perhaps you have that closeness too, only that you intermix religious practice and tradition with that, which is fine. I'm not here to judge any of that. It's just that many who walk by modern and historic "church" buildings tend to think about the rituals and practices within that mask the deeper, more intimate elements of a life in Christ and the freedoms therein.

MM

MM that’s very true God does hate false religion As to the Pharisees and Sadducees they were rather newish sects never really representing Jehovah. They turned up somewhere between 200 and 100 BC with the Pharisees being more traditional and appealing to the Jewish ones at the time of which Paul does attest to his faithfulness to that religion before becoming a Christian as referenced in Acts 26:5. There also be othe passages referring to Baal and others religions not worthy of God But is your assessment fully correct with the word ( Religious or Religion ) that you claim should not be used as one of the words concerning our Christian heritage and our Christian faith. I would disagree once more for within the pages of Holy Writ.the Bible does clearly call our faith a religious one and our Christian faith be called a religion as mentioned in James 1:26-27 We must evaluate this deeper. Just because the word religion is used in a negative context in light of false religion or how people falsely practice religion or how they be that in name only. That still doesn’t mean that we deny the word from our Christian heritage. And it still doesn’t give us the right to deny the word. Simply because we also have the positive meaning and positive outlook for the word with all due respect to true religion and of our relationship, observances and practices within the worship of Jesus Christ as a pure and true religion. MM You did mention compartmentalised. When thinking upon compartmentalisation perhaps you have compartmentalised the word Religion to much in a negative light And it very much does beg the question. If Christianity is not a religion than under what term do you designate for the universal Christian faith? MM as to our relationships to the gods and goddesses of ancient times right up unto the very present time I do think .That's a interesting perspective with the goddesses being more personal and esteemed throughout the world from the gutter to the brothel to the temple due to the happiness goddesses do bring. Yes for some vice and for others they do very much do make the man feel very much like a human being again. Such is the way of loneliness and the way the goddesses of the night. They do adhere their pleasures upon humanity. Sometimes as heaven sometimes as hell. It be of interest. As it seems the power of the old religion has never really left us. I do note upon entering some of our traditional churches that you are often greeted upon entering the churches with the holy Rose. Some do say a mere reference to the bride of Christ or is it something more secretive and hidden pertaining to the sexual and ancient fertility rites of the old religion where both reproductive systems male and female were equally celebrated on a personal level as gods amongst the ancient festivals right up to this very day. Anyway just a passing thought on the subject you mentioned that I would like to study more deeply into one day

 

[In Awe of Him]

MM in one respect you be right in respect to the way we love our spouse which is both spiritually and physically. But even than a family can be known as a very religious family. Where as our religious well being is a spiritual matter and does not rely on a physical relationship or our physical well being. The meaning of religion be what it be a deep spiritual devotion to God. You be wrong to claim that the word religion or religious is a poor or inferior substitute.

Now I’m not entirely sure of which words you think are more superior or better placed than religious. Perhaps Christian, Saved , Born again, sanctified etc. I have no problem with any of those words . But at the same time I know full well if the fruit of the Spirit isn’t there then it is not the words that are inferior of their meanings. But only the people who lay claim to the words and who are not as they claim. MM It be they who have the failing and not the actual words . And so it is the same with the word religion or religious the word religion or religious is in no way inferior. Guess we would have to disagree.

I think perhaps the word religious gets such a bad review because of where the Bible talks of a "religious spirit"/the pharisees

Matthew 23:44 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matthew 23:66 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

23:Matthew 23:9-10 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOMS OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN ; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

I am one who has a severe problem with this word. I do not use it when referencing myself.

I think this is an issue of semantics... and what one is exposed to with reference to words.

*
Edit... I just saw that MM basically just said the same thing. He was FASTER than me. HAHA

 

[Prim90]

I think perhaps the word religious gets such a bad review because of where the Bible talks of a "religious spirit"/the pharisees

Matthew 23:44 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matthew 23:66 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

23:Matthew 23:9-10 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOMS OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN ; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

I am one who has a severe problem with this word. I do not use it when referencing myself.

I think this is an issue of semantics... and what one is exposed to with reference to words.

*
Edit... I just saw that MM basically just said the same thing. He was FASTER than me. HAHA

In Awe of Him you may not like the word religion . But the God does both like and dislike a balance is required when evaluating words. Religion is not always a dirty word : ) God bless and good nite from our part of the world

 

[Musicmaster]

Prim, I am aware that the English Bible translations make use of the word "religion" and "religious." For perspective, let's consider what scripture says when using that term:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Outside of these things, religious practice is less than what is acceptable before the Father. Notice that James did not say that acceptable, pure religion is what is done in "worship services" or in daily life of devotions and other practices, but rather that which is external in the sense of what is acceptable before the Father, exemplified in visitations of the fatherless and widows, and remaining unblemished by the world and its lures to sins.

Other places where "religion" is used have very negative connotations:

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Galatians 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Religion, then, as can be seen in the above contexts from where those verses were quoted, can easily become inclusive of that which is inferior, and therefore lacking in the purity and holy expression of a life in Christ Jesus. It can be like an amalgam of things that are unacceptable before the Lord.

Life in Christ, on the other hand, is not inclusive of the leaven of this world, where religion can often include much leaven, and therefore be corrupt. Relationship with Christ is not so prone to such corruptions, for one is either in Christ, or he is not. One is either born again, or he is not, just as a woman is either pregnant, or she is not, for there is no such things as being partially pregnant.

I hope that better explains the difference.

MM

 

[Prim90]

Prim, I am aware that the English Bible translations make use of the word "religion" and "religious." For perspective, let's consider what scripture says when using that term:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Outside of these things, religious practice is less than what is acceptable before the Father. Notice that James did not say that acceptable, pure religion is what is done in "worship services" or in daily life of devotions and other practices, but rather that which is external in the sense of what is acceptable before the Father, exemplified in visitations of the fatherless and widows, and remaining unblemished by the world and its lures to sins.

Other places where "religion" is used have very negative connotations:

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Galatians 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Religion, then, as can be seen in the above contexts from where those verses were quoted, can easily become inclusive of that which is inferior, and therefore lacking in the purity and holy expression of a life in Christ Jesus. It can be like an amalgam of things that are unacceptable before the Lord.

Life in Christ, on the other hand, is not inclusive of the leaven of this world, where religion can often include much leaven, and therefore be corrupt. Relationship with Christ is not so prone to such corruptions, for one is either in Christ, or he is not. One is either born again, or he is not, just as a woman is either pregnant, or she is not, for there is no such things as being partially pregnant.

I hope that better explains the difference.

MM

MM whet you say in reference to pure religion only being reserved in helping the fatherless and widows in their affliction be not the only matters pertaining to true religion. That is only one aspect of what our Christian Religion teaches. The meaning of the word religious or religion embraces the entirety of scripture. We also have the New Testament epistles of how religious worship is to be conducted within our churches and also a vast array of church dogma namely with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ being our Lord and Saviour and notably the Holy Trinity. Whilst the word Trinity is not mentioned in our Bible we fully know what the term be declaring and the reason why we use the term Trinity. Would you deny the word Trinity just because it is not mentioned in the Bible ? Now just because the word religion isn’t mentioned so much in our Bibles in a positive way that in no way implies that the positive aspect is not there even with the statement from James 1:26-27 vouching for the integrality of the word in a positive way. We still have the entirety of the Bible impregnated with the thought of religiosity pointing to religion or being present in essence even without the word religion being present be that in the negative or positive sense of the word . We have even embraced the entirety of the Old Testament to be on par with the New Testament as part of our sacred scripture . And Namely from a very religious people called the Jews. Or are we now to disavow them of their religiosity ? And from their histories with the many blessing and calamities that they received from God along the way in good times and bad times of being a very religious people. MM being religious in the Christian sense of the word in no way implies corruption or a misunderstanding of our relationship with Christ it speaks expressly of the opposite when the word is applied to our relationship to him in the Christian sense of the meaning Devoted to God. You seem to have chosen a very sectarian point of view with the meaning of the word religious. You always seem to explain with negative connotations. You seem to leave no possibility of the term of religion & religious being seen in a positive light. Even more so if someone classifies Christianity as a religion. of which Christianity truely is a religion of Faith and sound Biblical doctrine and also a true relationship with God. MM again I have no problems of the word religion being used in the negative sense be that with false religions etc.but to deny the meaning of the word religion or religious when applied to Christianity in such a negative way is simply not a true reality and certainly not a truthful explanation or full exploration of the word.you say that the words ( life in Christ is not exclusive to the leaven of the world where religion can add much leaven, and therefore be more corrupt ) . It’s a interesting perspective. MM I would say to that you could use what ever religious vocabulary you choose and that would not change the leaven of the world from entering the church. The word of God is a dead book to the unsaved unless the Holy Spirit does intercede and that the word of God does become like a two edged sword as mentioned in Ephesians to convict them of the truth. I think upon the Sheep and the goats it is the Lord that separates. I do think very much upon Matthew chapter 13 in regards to that. It is unwise to destabilise the centrepiece of community in western civilisation being the church in its many formats which has been the central force in keeping us predominantly Christian until recent times. Perhaps we should think more wisely upon the words Jesus in that regard when it comes to the wheat and the chaff Matthew 13:24-43

 

[Major]

There are many references to what and who we are in Christ, and religious is not one of the descriptors in the Bible. The Pharisees were religious, along with the Sadducees, and pagans are religious. Some of those people even refer to themselves as "spiritual." Given that we all have a spirit, we are all spiritual.

As to what I said about family, I think you missed my point. It is no more "religious" for me to believe in the existence of my mother and father than it is to say that it's religious to believe in the One who created them. Perhaps the confusion here is in the manner of devotion to the Lord that gets that label of "religion" flying around like a chunks of hardened lava from a volcano, being spewed in all directions. Many see their devotion to the Lord as a "religious" practice, and if that's what they want to do, then that's on them, not those who see devotion to the Lord as a relationship. None of the man-made gods throughout history sought "relationship" except those goddesses who were and are esteemed in brothels, some in the gutters and others in temples. They too are religious in their pursuit of evil pleasures.

Perhaps you were brought up and currently practice your devotion to the Lord in the compartment of religion and the exercises therein, and that's a freedom I'm not here to take from you or anyone else, but I like for others to know that I personally do not have a relationship with the Lord that falls within the confining restraints of religion. Like I said, anyone can be religious...even unbelievers.

From my perspective, religious ritual died with the temple and its priesthood, and therefore no longer has any defining hold upon us today who are in Christ and now filled with His Holy Spirit, which the ancient peoples before the cross did not have. When I was religious, I never could get that warmth of relationship and closeness with the Lord that I have with Him now. Perhaps you have that closeness too, only that you intermix religious practice and tradition with that, which is fine. I'm not here to judge any of that. It's just that many who walk by modern and historic "church" buildings tend to think about the rituals and practices within that mask the deeper, more intimate elements of a life in Christ and the freedoms therein.

MM

Well stated!

 

[bobinfaith]

Prim, I am aware that the English Bible translations make use of the word "religion" and "religious." For perspective, let's consider what scripture says when using that term:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Outside of these things, religious practice is less than what is acceptable before the Father. Notice that James did not say that acceptable, pure religion is what is done in "worship services" or in daily life of devotions and other practices, but rather that which is external in the sense of what is acceptable before the Father, exemplified in visitations of the fatherless and widows, and remaining unblemished by the world and its lures to sins.

Other places where "religion" is used have very negative connotations:

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Galatians 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Religion, then, as can be seen in the above contexts from where those verses were quoted, can easily become inclusive of that which is inferior, and therefore lacking in the purity and holy expression of a life in Christ Jesus. It can be like an amalgam of things that are unacceptable before the Lord.

Life in Christ, on the other hand, is not inclusive of the leaven of this world, where religion can often include much leaven, and therefore be corrupt. Relationship with Christ is not so prone to such corruptions, for one is either in Christ, or he is not. One is either born again, or he is not, just as a woman is either pregnant, or she is not, for there is no such things as being partially pregnant.

I hope that better explains the difference.

MM

MM whet you say in reference to pure religion only being reserved in helping the fatherless and widows in their affliction be not the only matters pertaining to true religion. That is only one aspect of what our Christian Religion teaches. The meaning of the word religious or religion embraces the entirety of scripture. We also have the New Testament epistles of how religious worship is to be conducted within our churches and also a vast array of church dogma namely with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ being our Lord and Saviour and notably the Holy Trinity. Whilst the word Trinity is not mentioned in our Bible we fully know what the term be declaring and the reason why we use the term Trinity. Would you deny the word Trinity just because it is not mentioned in the Bible ? Now just because the word religion isn’t mentioned so much in our Bibles in a positive way that in no way implies that the positive aspect is not there even with the statement from James 1:26-27 vouching for the integrality of the word in a positive way. We still have the entirety of the Bible impregnated with the thought of religiosity pointing to religion or being present in essence even without the word religion being present be that in the negative or positive sense of the word . We have even embraced the entirety of the Old Testament to be on par with the New Testament as part of our sacred scripture . And Namely from a very religious people called the Jews. Or are we now to disavow them of their religiosity ? And from their histories with the many blessing and calamities that they received from God along the way in good times and bad times of being a very religious people. View attachment 10738MM being religious in the Christian sense of the word in no way implies corruption or a misunderstanding of our relationship with Christ it speaks expressly of the opposite when the word is applied to our relationship to him in the Christian sense of the meaning Devoted to God. You seem to have chosen a very sectarian point of view with the meaning of the word religious. You always seem to explain with negative connotations. You seem to leave no possibility of the term of religion & religious being seen in a positive light. Even more so if someone classifies Christianity as a religion. of which Christianity truely is a religion of Faith and sound Biblical doctrine and also a true relationship with God. MM again I have no problems of the word religion being used in the negative sense be that with false religions etc.but to deny the meaning of the word religion or religious when applied to Christianity in such a negative way is simply not a true reality and certainly not a truthful explanation or full exploration of the word.View attachment 10738you say that the words ( life in Christ is not exclusive to the leaven of the world where religion can add much leaven, and therefore be more corrupt ) . It’s a interesting perspective. MM I would say to that you could use what ever religious vocabulary you choose and that would not change the leaven of the world from entering the church. The word of God is a dead book to the unsaved unless the Holy Spirit does intercede and that the word of God does become like a two edged sword as mentioned in Ephesians to convict them of the truth. I think upon the Sheep and the goats it is the Lord that separates. I do think very much upon Matthew chapter 13 in regards to that. It is unwise to destabilise the centrepiece of community in western civilisation being the church in its many formats which has been the central force in keeping us predominantly Christian until recent times. Perhaps we should think more wisely upon the words Jesus in that regard when it comes to the wheat and the chaff Matthew 13:24-43 View attachment 10740

Hello Musicmaster and Prim90;

You make very good valid points.

Religion and religious can have many meanings between the Bible, theological and world terminology discussions.

What's important to the Christian disciple is by staying in the Word we are able to grasp the distinction between religion, religious or religiosity and it's negative or positive connotation which I feel MM and Prim90 are getting across.

You both are basically expressing the same thing in this Christian discussion but I feel you haven't been able to arrive at that.

God bless you, MM and Prim90.

Bob