Sorry, in this case (Pentecost) some men DID understand them and in Paul's later reference where he uses this phrase he is by the phrase speaking about those who hear not those who speak (of course they have no idea). And as for the "mysteries" Paul is clearly referring to the speaker speaking mysteries TO GOD (a mystery to the speaker speaking TO Him, but not a mystery to God) while at Pentecost, which you yourself have so kindly indicated, they spoke the wonderful works of God to these people (God speaking through them....thus not the same).
Tongues Study
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Sorry, in this case (Pentecost) some men DID understand them and in Paul's later reference where he uses this phrase he is by the phrase speaking about those who hear not those who speak (of course they have no idea). And as for the "mysteries" Paul is clearly referring to the speaker speaking mysteries TO GOD (a mystery to the speaker speaking TO Him, but not a mystery to God) while at Pentecost, which you yourself have so kindly indicated, they spoke the wonderful works of God to these people (God speaking through them....thus not the same).
Again we totally agree here!
In Acts, we see not only the Spirit coming with power, we see it manifested with a tongue of fire visible over each person. This has not happened since then. So we have to be careful what we take from Acts as normative or required. Certainly anyone serving other believers should do so with the Spirit's empowerment, but this hardly means that all believers, or even all "pastors", must speak in tongues. The various gifts are likened to the parts of a body, and no part is more necessary than another part. What I mean is that just as not everyone prophesies, not everyone speaks in tongues. Tongues are simply one of many gifts, and like any natural body, it would not function if it consisted only of one part... or one gift. All the gifts work together via various individuals so gifted. That's why everyone does not have the same gift.
If I was called to be a "minister" of God in whatever area, I sure would want everything God had for me to do his work, because I know I can not do it on my own. I believe "speaking" in tongues gives a huge advantage over someone who does not. Why want less than whats available?
What happened on the day of Pentecost was repeated when Peter spoke to the house hold of Cornelius.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
I'm not sure how speaking in tongues is an advantage, since as we've already agreed, prophecy is at least equal to it. For many people, speaking in tongues becomes a sort of "holier than thou" badge and can become a snare. I'm not saying this is always the case, but it certainly isn't an advantage. And I think we'd all agree that we need God's power to do his work. This is not a case of "wanting less than what's available" at all.
Re. tongues of fire being visible, no visible tongues of fire appeared over them in the home of Cornelius.
Here are just a few reasons why "speaking in tongues" has an advantage....
1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
Some of the things I know today, came by this method
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I know how to pray, but many times I do not know what to pray for. The Holy Spirit comes to my aid, and helps me pray the perfect will of God, either for me or someone else.
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Praying in tongues yields my tongue over to him, the Holy Spirit.
I often pray without words, through the Spirit, without any tongues at all. We also know from the scripture you cited that the Spirit intercedes for us without words. So we can indeed be built up without speaking in tongues. It's fine that you have come to know some things by this method, yet surely you wouldn't say that no one could possibly know those things without the same method?
Not sure why you included James 3:8, which speaks of ordinary "bad mouthing" by ordinary human language.
According to "PC Nelson" a Greek scholar, he said this about Romans 8:26
P. C. Nelson, a Greek scholar and the founder of Southwestern Bible Institute, said that the
Greek in Romans 8:26 literally reads, ". . . the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in
groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech."
Articulate speech means your regular kind of speech. He went on to point out that the Greek
stresses that this not only includes groanings escaping your lips in prayer, but also praying in
other tongues. That agrees with what Paul said in First Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in an
unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth. . . ." The Amplified Bible says, ". . . my spirit [by the Holy
Spirit within me] prays. . .."
According to Liddell/Scott, αλαλητοις means "unutterable". To say that it means "unintelligible" is to change the meaning completely. It is not that we cannot understand the speech, but that it cannot be spoken. So I must disagree with P. C. Nelson from the Liddell/Scott basis.
So I still see no advantage, no necessity, in speaking in tongues as either proof of salvation or a requirement to teach or preach.
Relentless, We are all living, and experiencing God in his Kingdom based on what we know and believe. We can not experience anything above what we believe from the word of God. You are were you are, and I am were I am based on what we each believe. No one has to speak in tongues if they don't want to, which is why they don't. I do because that is what I see in scripture. There is no condemnation to those who don't though.
Yes...thats it....
When did I ever say I didn't want to?
I am open to whatever the Spirit chooses. It isn't for you to say that I'm resisting the Spirit because I disagree with your viewpoint on tongues.
Relentless, you for sure live up to your screen name, which I do not consider a bad thing. In fact I am in the same way. I stick to my guns and do not deviate from what I believe as truth. We share scripture to each other, and then we let the Holy Spirit do his job.
Absolutely.
And hopefully if we are yielding to the Spirit, when or if enough sense is made to show we are lacking or even incorrect we will be mature enough to admit it and change our view to more line up with the truth. I just had that humbling experience here ( on another thread) regarding John 5:37 and now that I see the other side I can never be dogmatic about my previous understanding again.
The funny thing about the tongues discussion (which has been beat to death many times) is that those who have it know it and cannot deny it. Some who would never seek it having been taught it is of the devil cannot tolerate any who claim to have experienced the gift. In truth, we can only see what we see and God has it planned that way for the time...maybe to give some humility, maybe to educate others, maybe because He needs you right where you are for the purpose He has for you at that time. Its all good. Briothers and sisters can agree to disagree but in the end we are all family.
In His love
Paul
The funny thing about the tongues discussion (which has been beat to death many times) is that those who have it know it and cannot deny it. Some who would never seek it having been taught it is of the devil cannot tolerate any who claim to have experienced the gift. In truth, we can only see what we see and God has it planned that way for the time...maybe to give some humility, maybe to educate others, maybe because He needs you right where you are for the purpose He has for you at that time. Its all good. Briothers and sisters can agree to disagree but in the end we are all family.
In His love
Paul
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
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Waggles, what do those scriptures have to do with speaking in tongues? And are you implying something about those who have not been given that particular gift?
There is no doubt that "tongues" has had many a bad reputation, because of it's abuse. The Devil shows no mercy when he can cause divisions among the members of Christs Church. This is one reason I have stayed away from the organised Church, so I have never experienced this abuse personally, but I know it exists.
As for being humbled because of learning something new that crushes something we though was truth is definitely not fun. I can not tell you how many times I have been there myself. It can usually cause us to come to a place were we are not to sure of what we believe. It takes a reassessment of our belief system in an attempt to rebuild the "breach" in the wall. It could take a few days, or even weeks before this rebuilding takes place in our life. But, when it is done, that wall is much stronger than it was before.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Waggles: twice now you've just posted scripture without comment, and none of it is on topic.
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