Tongues Study

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I would say we need this gift just as much as they needed back in Paul's day, if not even more.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Speaking in tongues is alive and well today just as much as it was back then.
 
I would say we need this gift just as much as they needed back in Paul's day, if not even more.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Speaking in tongues is alive and well today just as much as it was back then.

And is the latter necessarily related to the former? Do you think one has to "speak in tongues" as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit?
 
And is the latter necessarily related to the former? Do you think one has to "speak in tongues" as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit?
All I can do is show you the scriptures that tell us this.

ACTS 2:1-4
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one
place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it
filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of
them.
4 And THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH
OTHER TONGUES, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.



ACTS 1:44-46
44 While Peter yet spake these words, THE HOLY GHOST FELL ON ALL THEM which
heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with
Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT OF THE HOLY
GHOST.

46 For they heard them SPEAK WITH TONGUES, and magnify God....

ACTS 19:1-7
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through
the upper coasts came to Eph-esus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said
unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's
baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the
people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ
Jesus.5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM;
and THEY SPAKE WITH TONGUES, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.


ACTS 8:14-18
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the
word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy
Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of
the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.
18 And WHEN SIMON SAW that through laying on of the apostles' hands THE HOLY
GHOST WAS GIVEN,
he offered them money.

there had to be some kind of physical evidence that Simon's recognized with his physical senses for him to know that the Samaritans had received the Holy Spirit. It is only reasonable to assume that it was the same evidence of believers receiving the Holy Spirit that is recorded else where in the Scriptures, that is, speaking in tongues.

ACTS 9:17
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him
said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou
camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and BE FILLED with the Holy
Ghost. "


Paul said....
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (1 Cor. 14:18).

There are five accounts showing that "speaking in tongues" is the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.
"out of the mouth of two or three wittiness let every Word be established" (2 Cor 13:1)
 
I do not contend that speaking in tongues is A gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is NOT THE gift, The Holy Spirit itself is the gift my friend and as my earlier post demonstrated that which you and I have received is not the same gift as the Apostles at Pentecost for when they spake in their own native tongue, each man heard them in their own language. The only group who received the same gift as they were those of the household of Cornelius. God spoke through these men on those occasions.

But Paul tells us of another form, when the man speaking speaks mysteries unto God (not God though the man) and of that language it is said "no man understands"...that gift is personally yours for between you and God alone. As Paul also says referring to this, "Do all speak in tongues? Do all Prophecy?" The question is rhetorical....you figure out the answer!

Do not be persuaded by those who taught you doctrine, read the whole word of God on the matter...the gift you have may or may not be real (as some such churches actually hold classes to teach this gift but is then falsified) but even for those who truly receive it, it is certainly not that received by the first church but that which was later received by many (but not all)
 
And is the latter necessarily related to the former? Do you think one has to "speak in tongues" as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit?
YES it is the only Bible evidence. God gives one sign and one sign only to avoid confusion by followers as to whether or not they have received the Holy Spirit or not. Jesus himself said that believers would - that's good enough for me.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [all creation].
He that believeth and is baptized [of water and the Holy Spirit] shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
So the question here is how - by what sign lacking - did Peter and John know with certainty that although the Samaritans were baptised in water that they had NOT received the Holy Spirit as yet?
And again by what sign later did they know with certainty that the Samaritans had received the Holy Ghost?


While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. KJV
And in the same way the Spirit is a help to our feeble hearts: for we are not able to make prayer to God in the right way; but the Spirit puts our desires into words which are not in our power to say; BBE 1965

nbsp; For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
nbsp; For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
nbsp; What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil...
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
 
But Paul tells us of another form, when the man speaking speaks mysteries unto God (not God though the man) and of that language it is said "no man understands"...that gift is personally yours for between you and God alone. As Paul also says referring to this, "Do all speak in tongues? Do all Prophecy?" The question is rhetorical....you figure out the answer!

It is fairly obvious by this that you are not in a Pentecostal church where ALL the members are baptized by water and the Holy Spirit, and where ALL the saints have their own prayer language [tongues].
You will never understand the operation of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit that operate for the benefit and function of the Church when the saints come together for a communion meeting.
1Corinthians 12 lists gifts that are given to the saints and are primarily for the edifying and growth of the Spirit-filled Church.
God is not a liar - Jesus said that believers SHALL speak in new tongues. And they do. Hundreds of thousands of saints receive the Holy Spirit all over the world with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues, with most receiving miraculous healings immediately.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Verse 10 is referring to those saints whose job it is in the meeting to operate one of the voice gifts - such a person has their own prayer language of tongues common to all, but additionally they will speak more strongly in tongues. Not all members operate this gift. Some others will do interpretation and some others will prophecy. But EVERYBODY prays in the Holy spirit, that is able to pray in tongues.
I myself have never operated one of the voice gifts in an Assembly meeting. But, I have confidence that my gifts in the Church are wisdom, knowledge and discerning. Others excel at exercising gifts of healings, or faith, or working of miracles.
If you are not part of this (and why wouldn't you want to be the same as the scriptures?) then it is outside your experience and knowledge.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [for example; Wallace's prayer language is different to him operating the gift of tongues in a meeting, quite different.]
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

NO not everybody has the same gifts in the Church for the benefit of the Church. Some are gifted teachers, most are not. Some are great evangelists, most not. Some are always full of faith, and support the weak and those struggling. Our diversities strengthen the work and growth of our Church.
We cannot all be pastors!!!

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
 
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You will never understand the operation of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit that operate for the benefit and function of the Church when the saints come together for a communion meeting

Not very nice Waggles...for man of God! And I was baptized in water, and have and do on occasion speak in tongues and have been blessed on occasion with some of the others (the Spirit ministering them severally as HE wills). And I do most certainly understand the gifts of the Spirit which I fully believe manifest severally as He wills for His purpose.


1 Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Co 12:8 or to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Co 12:9o to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Co 12:10o another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He wills.

Though as a gift I do not "practice" any of them, I (as well as my wife Salome) do and have operated in many of them as He moves (not my will but His be done)...however I do not believe (as you may) that one must speak in tongues (only) as PROOF of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person.

Remember, "Speaking mysteries TO God" in a language "NO MAN understands" is one gift of the Spirit and not one all receive (to another, to another, and so on) but this manifestation you are referring to is not the same as speaking in your own language (say Hebrew/Aramaic, or Greek, Syriac, or modern English) and everyone HEARING IN THEIR OWN language like at Pentecost (Acts 2:5,6).

And the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 IS that you receive the Spirit...it is the promise of the Father (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4)

The Lord bless...
 
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You will never understand the operation of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit that operate for the benefit and function of the Church when the saints come together for a communion meeting

Not very nice Waggles...for man of God! And I was baptized in water, and have and do on occasion speak in tongues and have been blessed on occasion with some of the others (the Spirit ministering them severally as HE wills). And I do most certainly understand the gifts of the Spirit which I fully believe manifest severally as He wills for His purpose.


1 Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Co 12:8 or to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Co 12:9o to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Co 12:10o another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He wills.

Though as a gift I do not "practice" any of them, I (as well as my wife Salome) do and have operated in many of them as He moves (not my will but His be done)...however I do not believe (as you may) that one must speak in tongues (only) as PROOF of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person.

Remember, "Speaking mysteries TO God" in a language "NO MAN understands" is one gift of the Spirit and not one all receive (to another, to another, and so on) but this manifestation you are referring to is not the same as speaking in your own language (say Hebrew/Aramaic, or Greek, Syriac, or modern English) and everyone HEARING IN THEIR OWN language like at Pentecost (Acts 2:5,6).

And the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 IS that you receive the Spirit...it is the promise of the Father (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4)

The Lord bless...
Paul, No man can speak in "tongues" or in a "unknown tongue" until that person is first filled with the Holy Spirit. The "tongue" that is spoken will all ways be unknown to the person speaking it. There is a "ministry" of speaking in tongues, in which not ALL participate in, and then there is the prayer language of speaking in tongues in which ALL who are filled with the Spirit participate in.
This is what surprised those who heard their native language being spoken on the day of Pentecost, because those who where hearing these things knew that those speaking did not know their language. The person speaking in a tongue has no control over the content of what is being said, only the Holy Spirit.
The "gifts" (plural) of the Holy Spirit are only operational in the lives of those who have the "gift" (singular) of the Holy Spirit.
 
Can you cite some scripture in support of this?

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (ESV)

1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. (ESV)

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (ESV)

1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. (ESV)

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Thanks. I disagree with your interpretation though.

What Paul wanted for everyone was not necessarily what the Holy Spirit chose. Paul held prophecy in higher regard than tongues, yet no one interprets Paul as saying that everyone is going to prophesy. And of course, Mar. 16:17 is part of a section held by most scholars to be spurious. But even if it's genuine, surely no one thinks that all believers will cast out devils.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
 
Paul, No man can speak in "tongues" or in a "unknown tongue" until that person is first filled with the Holy Spirit. The "tongue" that is spoken will all ways be unknown to the person speaking it. There is a "ministry" of speaking in tongues, in which not ALL participate in, and then there is the prayer language of speaking in tongues in which ALL who are filled with the Spirit participate in.
This is what surprised those who heard their native language being spoken on the day of Pentecost, because those who where hearing these things knew that those speaking did not know their language. The person speaking in a tongue has no control over the content of what is being said, only the Holy Spirit.
The "gifts" (plural) of the Holy Spirit are only operational in the lives of those who have the "gift" (singular) of the Holy Spirit.

I hear you Fam but the scriptures do not say Peter spoke to them in their own language, but that he spoke and we see the message he delivered. It says (which in my opinion was the miracle with this manifestation) that each of them heard in their own tongue (thus the Parthians heard the same message in Parsi, that the Greeks heard in Greek,and the Jews in Hebrew, and so on).
 
Thanks. I disagree with your interpretation though.

What Paul wanted for everyone was not necessarily what the Holy Spirit chose. Paul held prophecy in higher regard than tongues, yet no one interprets Paul as saying that everyone is going to prophesy. And of course, Mar. 16:17 is part of a section held by most scholars to be spurious. But even if it's genuine, surely no one thinks that all believers will cast out devils.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Prophesy is "greater" than one who speaks in tongues, "unless he interprets", then tongues is on the same level as prophesy.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Here, Paul is talking about "ministry" gifts not the normal speaking in tongues as a prayer language.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The answer here is, "no" as not all are called into the five fold ministry, which includes speaking in tongues, and it's interpretation.
 
Paul, No man can speak in "tongues" or in a "unknown tongue" until that person is first filled with the Holy Spirit. The "tongue" that is spoken will all ways be unknown to the person speaking it.

I agree! But there is a difference between human language and one that "no man understands"....and in one case God speaks through them and in the other man speaks mysteries (to himself) to God, which are clearly NOT the same phenomenon
 
I hear you Fam but the scriptures do not say Peter spoke to them in their own language, but that he spoke and we see the message he delivered. It says (which in my opinion was the miracle with this manifestation) that each of them heard in their own tongue (thus the Parthians heard the same message in Parsi, that the Greeks heard in Greek,and the Jews in Hebrew, and so on).

How ever they heard, weather from Peter speaking, and God causing each to hear a different language or hearing from the other 119 people there, the people speaking did not know the language they were speaking in.
 
Prophesy is "greater" than one who speaks in tongues, "unless he interprets", then tongues is on the same level as prophesy.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Here, Paul is talking about "ministry" gifts not the normal speaking in tongues as a prayer language.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The answer here is, "no" as not all are called into the five fold ministry, which includes speaking in tongues, and it's interpretation.

I agree here as well. Well done...and I think verse 5 especially addresses the issue about this being done in the congregational meetings...

Even if we are seeing something somewhat different in our exegesis of Acts 2, I think we are close to the same page...
 
Prophesy is "greater" than one who speaks in tongues, "unless he interprets", then tongues is on the same level as prophesy.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Here, Paul is talking about "ministry" gifts not the normal speaking in tongues as a prayer language.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The answer here is, "no" as not all are called into the five fold ministry, which includes speaking in tongues, and it's interpretation.
Agree that it's the edifying of the church that matters most. Hence no requirement that everyone speak in tongues, since the church can be edified without it.

However, I don't agree with "the fivefold ministry" idea. Here is 1 Cor. 12:-11
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Speaking in tongues and interpretation are two different gifts, so there's at least six, and none are described as only for a "fivefold ministry" that is somehow distinct from the general spiritual gifts. It's usually Eph. 4:11 that people cite as the "fivefold ministry"; that is, people with these qualities are the gifts themselves, and none of it is about speaking in tongues. Even so, in the context there I see it as Paul simply saying that God laid the foundation of the church in general, not every local church specifically, such that there is no "fivefold ministry" at all. But that's a slightly different topic than whether all believers must speak in tongues.
 
Paul, No man can speak in "tongues" or in a "unknown tongue" until that person is first filled with the Holy Spirit. The "tongue" that is spoken will all ways be unknown to the person speaking it.

I agree! But there is a difference between human language and one that "no man understands"....and in one case God speaks through them and in the other man speaks mysteries (to himself) to God, which are clearly NOT the same phenomenon

The one "no man understands him" would the people speaking in tongues. The 120 had no idea what they were saying, but the ones standing near by did.
What was being said to these people were "the wonderful works of God" which would have been "mysteries" that they did not know.

Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 
Agree that it's the edifying of the church that matters most. Hence no requirement that everyone speak in tongues, since the church can be edified without it.

However, I don't agree with "the fivefold ministry" idea. Here is 1 Cor. 12:-11

Speaking in tongues and interpretation are two different gifts, so there's at least six, and none are described as only for a "fivefold ministry" that is somehow distinct from the general spiritual gifts. It's usually Eph. 4:11 that people cite as the "fivefold ministry"; that is, people with these qualities are the gifts themselves, and none of it is about speaking in tongues. Even so, in the context there I see it as Paul simply saying that God laid the foundation of the church in general, not every local church specifically, such that there is no "fivefold ministry" at all. But that's a slightly different topic than whether all believers must speak in tongues.
I myself believe that for someone to be called into the "ministry" they would most definitely need the gifts of the Spirit as the means of accomplishing that work.
The whole reason for these 120 people waiting in the upper room, was so they would be endued with "power" from on high to fulfill what each one was called to do.
 
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