The Doctrine of "Free Will"

[Major]

Predestination is mentioned only in four places throughout the Bible in the NKJV, and yet it is hammered as if it were so vastly important and of such prominent consideration in some circles, that they even divide over it.

I've created this thread to help drive people into the word of God, so that in doing so, they may learn more about Him in His Perfection, and draw ever closer to Him by knowing even more about His perfect justice and perfect Love.

It is through tears that I've look upon the horrific divisions that this topic has proven instrumental in perpetrating, and therefore keeping many from seeing how glorious the Lord is in the handiwork of His creation of mankind..

MM

Amen brother. You are very correct. From where I used to sit, I can tell you with 100% confidence that the church has problems.
I have SEEN that as church members, we should overlook offenses instead of being offended. As Christians, we are to be people who surrender our rights, rather than demand our rights, for the sake of others. Rather than expecting or demanding that others adapt themselves to us, we are to sacrifice our preferences for them but we tend to do the opposite!!!!!!

Just look at how many people have been warned and removed from this web site because of those very actions!

Brothers and sisters, many of us are fighting the wrong battles. Most of the issues that are causing division in the church today should instead be leading to dialogue, understanding, deference, and grace.

No matter how right you think you are, no matter how wrong you think someone else is, ask yourself this:.....
is the issue worth causing division in the church or family or web site that Christ loves and died for?

I have personally had to separate people IN Church because someone sat in "their pew"!
I have personally had to remove one church member from church because he called an elderly man a "DEMON", in Church.

Why would anyone disparage someone else of Predestination is beyound me, much less, split and divide a church.

Honestly........Predestination is something that most people who are “supposed” to believe in or who think they believe in, usually fall into one of three categories.
1. They don’t actually understand it,
2. they don’t like it, or
3. they don’t actually believe it.

I believe, (from reading your posts) that you will agree with me when I say that when anyone digs in and does the work, they will find out that under the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election, the theological concept of Original Sin also collapses.
OOOPs...........now that becomes the real problem!

Now that is ironic because if it's fundamental position in the Bible, coupled with the fact that protestant Calvinist traditions consider themselves solo scriptura. Original Sin is and has been the theological explanation for how free will affects naturally good creations
in that it corrupts them through the choices we make that are anything less than good/perfect. It doesn’t mean that we’re all totally rotten, just kind of that we’re the reason we can’t have nice things. Like......we sin because we are sinners!

 

[Siloam]

I have been considering free will vs predestination, and for myself, it seems that it depends on who's viewpoint (God's or Man's) one takes.

If I look at my own life, I make lots of decisions, good and bad. My spiritual being is either improved or worsened by each. But I am confident that having made a key decision years ago, the ultimate price for my poor decisions was paid at the cross.

If I look from God's point of view, He stands outside of time and has direct access to all parts of it, including all time to come. Since he knew my ultimate fate before He created Adam, you might say that I was predetermined by God and I could not change it, but you would be wrong. The Lord God saw my acceptance from the very beginning.

Do you call that predestination because the Lord God never changed my fate, or do you call this free will because the key decision was mine?

By the way...

In this regard I came across a concept that attempts to reconcile this dilemma in a different, but perhaps a closely related way. It is called Molinism.

I have not studied and meditated on this long enough to give a definitive view, but here is a link:

Molinism

 

[crossnote]

The division part is true, but is it due to the topic or to man's carnal blindness and biases?

Probably both!

Seems to me, that a controversial topic without people would just sit there.

 

[Major]

I have been considering free will vs predestination, and for myself, it seems that it depends on who's viewpoint (God's or Man's) one takes.

If I look at my own life, I make lots of decisions, good and bad. My spiritual being is either improved or worsened by each. But I am confident that having made a key decision years ago, the ultimate price for my poor decisions was paid at the cross.

If I look from God's point of view, He stands outside of time and has direct access to all parts of it, including all time to come. Since he knew my ultimate fate before He created Adam, you might say that I was predetermined by God and I could not change it, but you would be wrong. The Lord God saw my acceptance from the very beginning.

Do you call that predestination because the Lord God never changed my fate, or do you call this free will because the key decision was mine?

By the way...

In this regard I came across a concept that attempts to reconcile this dilemma in a different, but perhaps a closely related way. It is called Molinism.

I have not studied and meditated on this long enough to give a definitive view, but here is a link:

Molinism

The decision was Yours and Mine brother. That does not interfere in any way with God knowing what you would do. Or me.

"Molinism" = the thesis that God has middle knowledge. It seeks to reconcile the apparent tension of divine providence and human free will. Named after RC theologian, Luis Molina.

You are now walking in some really TALL grass! It is the principle that God is completely sovereign and man is also free in a libertarian sense.

 

[Major]

Seems to me, that a controversial topic without people would just sit there.

You bet!

 

[Musicmaster]

Amen brother. You are very correct. From where I used to sit, I can tell you with 100% confidence that the church has problems.
I have SEEN that as church members, we should overlook offenses instead of being offended. As Christians, we are to be people who surrender our rights, rather than demand our rights, for the sake of others. Rather than expecting or demanding that others adapt themselves to us, we are to sacrifice our preferences for them but we tend to do the opposite!!!!!!

Just look at how many people have been warned and removed from this web site because of those very actions!

Brothers and sisters, many of us are fighting the wrong battles. Most of the issues that are causing division in the church today should instead be leading to dialogue, understanding, deference, and grace.

No matter how right you think you are, no matter how wrong you think someone else is, ask yourself this:.....
is the issue worth causing division in the church or family or web site that Christ loves and died for?

I have personally had to separate people IN Church because someone sat in "their pew"!
I have personally had to remove one church member from church because he called an elderly man a "DEMON", in Church.

Why would anyone disparage someone else of Predestination is beyound me, much less, split and divide a church.

Honestly........Predestination is something that most people who are “supposed” to believe in or who think they believe in, usually fall into one of three categories.
1. They don’t actually understand it,
2. they don’t like it, or
3. they don’t actually believe it.

I believe, (from reading your posts) that you will agree with me when I say that when anyone digs in and does the work, they will find out that under the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election, the theological concept of Original Sin also collapses.
OOOPs...........now that becomes the real problem!

Now that is ironic because if it's fundamental position in the Bible, coupled with the fact that protestant Calvinist traditions consider themselves solo scriptura. Original Sin is and has been the theological explanation for how free will affects naturally good creations
in that it corrupts them through the choices we make that are anything less than good/perfect. It doesn’t mean that we’re all totally rotten, just kind of that we’re the reason we can’t have nice things. Like......we sin because we are sinners!

I like the balance the scriptures give to the term "predestined," where it says that those he "foreknew" He predestined in Romans 8:29. That gives to us ample reason to disbelieve some of the extremes in the interpretation of that term.

Amen.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I have been considering free will vs predestination, and for myself, it seems that it depends on who's viewpoint (God's or Man's) one takes.

If I look at my own life, I make lots of decisions, good and bad. My spiritual being is either improved or worsened by each. But I am confident that having made a key decision years ago, the ultimate price for my poor decisions was paid at the cross.

If I look from God's point of view, He stands outside of time and has direct access to all parts of it, including all time to come. Since he knew my ultimate fate before He created Adam, you might say that I was predetermined by God and I could not change it, but you would be wrong. The Lord God saw my acceptance from the very beginning.

Do you call that predestination because the Lord God never changed my fate, or do you call this free will because the key decision was mine?

By the way...

In this regard I came across a concept that attempts to reconcile this dilemma in a different, but perhaps a closely related way. It is called Molinism.

I have not studied and meditated on this long enough to give a definitive view, but here is a link:

Molinism

As I mentioned to Major, Romans 8:29 gives to us the needed balance between free will and predestination, which is where the basis of "foreknowledge" is introduced to us in order to understand that there is no measure of injustice in Gods system of justice in relation to punishment and Hell.

Good stuff.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

"...when you believe in His death and resurrection..."

There it is. That is the support of free will, because given that the finished work of Christ being applied to anyone is a matter of "when you believe...," that affirms the free will element through which the Lord has Sovereignly chosen to give His free gift of salvation, with Him as the ONLY Source for that salvation.

Amen

MM

 

[forgiven61]

There it is. That is the support of free will,

lol MacArthur would issue a huge statement .he is 199% reformed Calvinist. he did make a good case for free will even if he didn't mean it that way.....