The Disastrous Failure Of The Early Church

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by evangelist-77, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
    with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
    This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless Church for hundreds of years!

    Yes, this is the condition of the church today, but it started some 1800 years ago.
    This selfish attitude caused God’s Church to become man’s church.
    So God said, “Okay, if you insist on going in this direction, I’ll back off.”
    (Remember, it has always been God’s plan to accomplish His goals on earth
    with a co-operative effort between Himself and man who has free will.)

    However, Satan had a huge part in this …
    “the god (ruler) of this world (age)” (John 12:31, 2 Corinthians 4:4)
    has always had a tremendous influence in the affairs of man.
    Satan did not want the churches to continue to have
    the spiritual power they enjoyed during the NT times.
    This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
    truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,
    and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

    Those in charge of the big churches 1800 years ago wanted to be in control.
    What these men did NOT want …
    -- God to be in control of the churches (this includes His use of S-W-M)
    -- ditto for God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who ran the NT churches)
    -- to acknowledge S-W-M
    -- anyone in the church with more spiritual anointing than they had
    -- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
    -- to risk losing their power, prestige, jobs, etc.

    These are the reasons why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches
    increasingly chose to fight against God’s anointing of certain believers
    who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11).
    So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles.

    Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
    And this special anointing baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
    The experience is simply called “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”,
    and the initial evidence (confirmation) of receiving this is speaking in tongues.
    The tongues here is a one-time sign, just a confirmation of what happened.
    This is NOT one of the 9 spiritual gifts (tongues) in 1 Corinthians 12:10.
    This Spirit baptism also was claimed to have ceased with the passing of the apostles.
    And other excuses were devised by Satan and man to weaken the churches’ spiritual power.

    To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M
    … can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?
    I urge you to persistently seek Jesus’ Spirit baptism for yourself.

    Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
    You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!
  2. Matt 12:39. says it all for me.
  3. Then again, Matt 16:18. "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
    Since Jesus as the Christ of God is the sure foundation of His Church, and He said that the gates of hell will not triumph over it, What purpose is there in being critical of His Church as it stands throughout time?
    Sure at any given day any Church fellowship needs to review where it stands.
    Let's not ever let Satan beguile us into thinking that Christ's Church has failed.
    Theo Fane likes this.
  4. What is S-W-M
  5. What is S-W-M please? I haven't heard that before.
  6. I sure hope you don't mean the Spiritual Wellness Movement. But sinse that is the only thing that seems to Google............:(
  7. I believe he is saying......SIGNS, WONDERS, MIRACLES.
  8. Yes sir......that is the answer for those who seek a sign.

    The sad thing is that those who seek signs and miracles are those whose faith is the least.

    It would also be helpful for those looking for miracles to remember that the church in the Revelation which is controlled by the A/C is one looking for and following those that fake miracles.

    Revelation 13:14
    "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in sight of the beast".
  9. The Op stated............
    "Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.

    Now that I agree with!

    God does miracles! Man does not!
    1 corth. 13:8-11
    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    Then this........

    "You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!"

    God is the author of SALVATION! The real miracle of life is that our loving heavenly father would allow His Son to die on the cross for us to be saved. That is THE miracle. NOT, the healing of cancer or deliverance from combat safetly or anyother happening. God in Christ died to the pay the penality of sin that all of humanity would be able to have the opporunity to be saved from hell. Christ washed black hearted man in HIs red blood and made them clean and white as snow. THAT IS THE MIRACLE OF GOD !!!!
    God is what God is and He does what He wants to do without reguard to what we think.
  10. "77 said...............
    This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
    truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,

    and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

    And here we see what happens when we accept "denominational" teaching over Biblical truth.

    I am sure "77 means well for all of us. I am sure he wants all to be healthy and receivers of Gods' good graces.

    But the Biblical truth is that he just staed that truth.......................
    "This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
    truth of the gospel,"

    That power and those gifts were in fact given to the 12 apostles by Jesus in Matt. 28 when He personally comissioned THEM.
    "Now the eleven (minus Judas & Paul) disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Believe me when I say that I want to think that include me. BUT it does not! Those "SIGN" gifts were given to THEM, the Apostles just as '77 has stated. When the last apostle died, the SIGN gifts ended.


    1 Corth. 13:
    "but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known".

    We now have the product of those apostles which is the written Word of God.......the Bible.

    Now those temporary SIGN gifts are done. That is what the Bible declares.
  11. It appears that He wants no discussion of the truth... sad.
  12. Steady Neddy! He might be otherwise occupied....let's not rush into this. Let's give him another 5 minutes before we come to any conclusions.
  13. Times up!
  14. I do have time for a quick C&P ... here she iz ... hope you like her ...

    30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
    31 but these (signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
    and that believing you may have life in His name.

    How can anyone think that signs, wonders, and miracles
    have not helped people believe in Jesus and His "foolish" gospel message?
    'Tis supposed to be continuing on today.
    "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)

    P.S. -- Here's some things I know for sure
    The following were to be carried on forever after the apostles died off (nah, since Pentecost):
    1 -- true believers were to be born-again
    2 -- some true believers were to be ANOINTED for special ministry (through the baptism with the Holy Spirit)
    3 -- #2 believers were to LEAD the church, i.e. the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11), (esp. apostles & prophets)
    4 -- #2 believers were to have strong FAITH in God's S-W-M
    5 -- #2 believers were to have faith that God's S-W-M would accompany their preaching of the gospel
    Why exactly was a continual lessening of God's S-W-M a disaster?

  16. Yup! says it all do it not? these things, (signs) have been written so that those who read can believe. Why write them down if they are to be a part of future daily life?
    1. Yup that is still happening as we speak.
    2. Yup that is still happening as we speak.
    3. Proof? Eph 4:11 does not emphasize apostles and prophets. Nor does Paul say that these Apostles and prophets will be scampering all over town performing S-W-M. (I take it Major's translation of SWM is correct??)
    4. Believers still do. see your own reference to John 20:30,31. above.
    5. Proof? Seems to me that believers are to have faith that the Holy Spirit will accompany, empower their testimony and confirm Christ Jesus in the hearts of those receptive to His message. Yup that is still happening as we speak.
    The greatest Apostle we have ever been blessed through, (Heb 3:1. ) is building His Church on the sure foundation of belief that He is the Christ the Son of the living God. Matt 16:16. Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
    Yup that is still happening as we speak.
    Major likes this.
  17. But there is no lessening of the Lord's works where there is faith! Don't you get it? Consider Paul's calling and commission:
    Acts 26:14,15,16,17,18. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
    And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
    But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
    There is no emphasis here on healing, calling down fire from heaven and so on.
    What was evident then and now is that the power of God was and is dynamically saving lost souls. This He does by the counsel of His own wisdom, not by pandering to an evil and adulterous generation seeking signs and other extra props.
    Y'see, I believe the Lord wants a people who believe He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Heb 11:6. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
    Check out all the "by faith' statements used in chapter 11. We don't read "by faith because he saw the waters parted....."do we. What do we read? Exo 14:16. "Lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the people of Israel may go through the sea on dry ground. " So no faith, no salvation. and , "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ". Rom 10:17.
    I'm truly sorry that you seek a church of your own specifications instead of the Church of Christ Jesus' specifications.
    Major and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  18. E77 how are you arriving at this conclusion?
    Imo, with all the early persecution (Nero, Diocletianic persecution), I don't see how any early church could be built up / survive without the Holy Spirit.

    I agree with the theory that the Holy Spirit is some-what lost in big churches. But if anything is / was lost.... it would be the greatest gifts of love, humility and righteousness. I see no shortage in the modern big churches of healings, exorcisms, drunk in the spirit and miracle testimonies (which I am not hammering ;)). Some gifts appeal more to our pride (healing!!!!!!!) and some (the greatest!!!! love) don't.

    Do you see someone who prays for healing ever being envious of someone who has only the greatest gift of love /humility? Yet it is those with visible gifts that get the prominent positions. The guy with the most love, humility and righteousness qualifies first and foremost as the most spiritual!! This is what so many just don't get.

    Not many can discern why it is that Jesus healed many in public and yet some who were told to go and tell no-one
  19. I agree with Calvin, miracles have, in no manor, ceased. The problem is that people have not spiritual eyes.
  20. No disrepect to you "77......but your use of Hebrews 13:8 is classic for those who chose to believe in Signs-wonders and miracles.

    Actually as has been posted by others here, I also believe in God doing wonders and miracles. I think the argument is about MEN performing HEALINGS and speaking in tongues is it not and doing signs and wonders????

    In that case the use of Hebrews 13:8 has no basis for your argument.

    Hebrews was written to Jews who were wanting to leave grace and Christ and go back to the rituals of the Jewish faith.The case presented by the writer of Hebrews was that those people needed to MATURE in their faith and grace which they received when they first believed. They needed to understand that the program of God had not changed from when they first believed.

    It has nothing to to do with signs or wonders or miracles as you intended it to be used for.

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