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The 'Description' of Revelation 1:12-17a

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Complete, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
    which God gave unto Him,
    to shew unto His servants
    things which must shortly come to pass;
    and He sent and signified it
    by His angel unto His servant John:'

    (Rev 1:1)

    Hello there,
    I remember, many years ago now, receiving a stern rebuke, from the leader of a Bible study group I attended, when I said that I thought that the description in Revelation 1:12-17a, was of the angel whom the risen Christ had sent, and not of Christ Himself, in the light of what is said in the verse above (Rev. 1:1), 'He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.' Angels being God's messengers, His mouthpiece as-it-were,

    'And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.
    And being turned,
    I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    And in the midst of the seven candlesticks
    one like unto the Son of man,
    (Dan. 7:13,14; Eze. 1:26; 8:2)
    clothed with a garment down to the foot,
    and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    His head and his hairs were white like wool,
    as white as snow;
    and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    And his feet like unto fine brass,
    as if they burned in a furnace;
    and his voice as the sound of many waters.
    And he had in his right hand seven stars:
    and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:
    and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. .... '


    * This vision is comparable to that of Daniel 10:5-8,

    'Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked,
    and behold a certain man clothed in linen,
    whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
    His body also was like the beryl,
    and his face as the appearance of lightning,
    and his eyes as lamps of fire,
    and his arms and his feet
    like in colour to polished brass,
    and the voice of his words
    like the voice of a multitude.
    And I Daniel alone saw the vision:
    for the men that were with me saw not the vision;
    but a great quaking fell upon them,
    so that they fled to hide themselves.
    Therefore I was left alone,
    and saw this great vision,
    and there remained no strength in me:
    for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption,
    and I retained no strength.'


    * Yet, all attribute the description of Revelation 1:12-17a, to that of the risen Lord Himself, and I would certainly not argue the point: but do you understand why I should have thought so?

    Any thoughts?

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  2. "Son of man" is one of the titles of Jesus. Don't forget too that we are the body of Christ which is why the seven candlesticks are the preachers of the church and why the seven angels with the trumpets are us as well, His messengers. I've always believed the word of God as literal, but the more I learn it the more I see just how very literal it really is.
     
    Noblemen, JG27_chili and Major says Amen and like this.
  3. I can in fact understand how you could have thought that. I also know you to be real smart so I think you probably figured it out real quick.
     
  4. #4 Complete, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
    'And in the midst of the seven candlesticks
    one like unto the Son of man,
    clothed with a garment down to the foot,
    and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow;
    and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    And his feet like unto fine brass,
    as if they burned in a furnace;
    and his voice as the sound of many waters.'

    (Rev 1:13-15)

    Thank you, @Abdicate, and @Major, for responding as you have.

    I did not plan to begin a thread on this subject, and had not thought of that incident in my 'far' past for a very long time. In the wee small ours of this morning I question the wisdom of doing so: yet having done so, I will see it through; but not to dispute it, just to confirm the truth concerning the identity of the figure, seen in vision by John.

    Abdicate has considered the words, 'Son of man': and rightly so, for it is one of the titles of our Lord Jesus Christ, as Abdicate has said. Yet, it is also used elsewhere in Scripture to distinguish the one spoken to, or referred to, as a human being, as distict from any other created being, such as an angel. Yet, I have now found out, that when used of a human being, as in Ezekiel, it never has the article, 'the', prefixed. (see Psa. 8:4 and Ezek.2:1)

    The word, 'like', which precedes the title, 'Son of man', 'like unto the Son of man', appeared to me, then, in that past incident, to confirm my thinking. Yet, John had known the Lord Jesus Christ (physically) as, 'Son of man', and His physical appearance was etched on his mind by more than acquaintance. We know that during the lead up to His crucifixion the Lord's face was marred by cruel hands: even so, John had also seen the risen Lord, as, 'Son of God', as well as 'Son of Man', in His resurrection body: which could appear and disappear at will but was, 'flesh and bones', and no mere, 'spirit'; as confirmed by the words of our Lord, as well as by demonstration, wasn't it? Praise God!

    In this 'vision', John saw, One 'like as' the Son of man, yet He looked like no son of man John had ever seen before (Revelation 1:13-15). So, yet again, those words could have been spoken discriptively.

    It is the words spoken that confirm the identity of the figure in the vision: 'I am Alpha and Omega Alpha,' (literally: 'The Alpha', 'The Omega'), [see Rev.1:17; and 22:13]; the words, 'the beginning and the ending', apparently, not being in the original text, here, or in verse 11, 'the first and the last', having been added by the translators. In verses: 17b and 18, of chapter one, though, it does appear in the original text: 'I am The First and The Last: He that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of death and hell.' (see Isaiah 41:4; 43:10, 48:11,12)

    Praise His Holy Name!

    'My Lord, and My God!

    * Thank you for bearing with me, for I needed to think this through.
    * Thank you, Lord, for confirming this for me.


    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  5. Isn't it amazing that God comes to us in the wee hours of the night with comforting thoughts of wisdom and love and knowledge.
     
    Complete likes this.
  6. A reasonable observation by a young Christian and one not demanding "a stern rebuke" But more a simple correction would or should have been enough. For on the face of it the one would seem to contradict the other or else its a description of an angel.
    Yet first its a revelation of Jesus Christ .Who is the Alpha and Omega . is clearly the Lord who he also saw when he turned and faced Him.
    Its worth considering that who eh saw was the GROOM!
    The angel on the other hand "SIGNIFIED" the things he saw as was proven later when the angel gave him understanding as to what he saw .Even as the angel of God gave understanding to Daniel .
    The foundation of all that followed was on the revelation of who the Lord Jesus Christ was and is .
    The understanding came by the angel.
    The seven spirits of God does not mean God has seven spirits . & is the number of perfection and even as the oil lamp of the tabernacle made with hands had seven branches but beaten out of one solid piece of gold.
    So the Holy Spirit is but one Spirit but has seven notable characteristics or manifestations. Which are I think ...
    The love of God , the wisdom of God , the fear of God , the knowledge of God , the mind of God , the holiness of God ,The Spirit of God.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  7. 'And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.
    And being turned,
    I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    And in the midst of the seven candlesticks
    one like unto the Son of man,
    clothed with a garment down to the foot,
    and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow;
    and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;
    and his voice as the sound of many waters.
    And he had in his right hand seven stars:
    and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:
    and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.'

    (Rev 1:12-16)

    *
    Thank you for your contribution, @geralduk: (I praise God for giving you grace to bear with me in love).

    * Yes, I am glad, that you recognise the cause of my misunderstanding.
    * Yes, and I forgot that John, was 'in the Spirit' - 'on the Lord's day' (v.10) : ie., he had been taken,' in the Spirit', to 'the Lord's day' (yet future) to witness what was to occur at that time. He not only saw these things in vision form, (but within it, as-it-were, in spirit) as a witness: so the description of the One, 'like unto the son of Man', reaching out His right hand to touch John (v.17), becomes understandable (see Eze. 8:3: Rev.17:3).
    * This produced a chuckle when I read it, Gerald. You don't miss an opportunity do you! :) I will let it pass this time, my friend.
    * Revelation 22:6, 8, 16.
    * Rev. 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6: - 'seven spirits of God'

    'John to the seven churches which are in Asia:
    Grace be unto you, and peace,
    from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come;
    and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

    (Rev 1:4)

    'And I beheld, and, lo,
    in the midst of the throne
    and of the four beasts,
    and in the midst of the elders,
    stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
    having seven horns and seven eyes,

    which are the seven Spirits of God
    sent forth into all the earth.'

    (Rev.5:6)

    * These are angels, or spirit beings, which are before His throne. They occupy the position of 'servants' (see 1 Kings 10:8), and of 'created beings' (4:5-10; 7:9,15; 8:2; 11:4, 16; 12:10; 14:3, 5, 10; 20:12; See also Ezek.1:13 - 'living creatures').

    Thank you, for leading me on to further fruitful study.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  8. Hello there,

    You have undoubtedly heard the saying, 'woman is fickle'. well I am sorry to say that I am proving it to be true, for my mind is oscillating (good word! Ha!), 'swinging back and forth' over this vision in Revelation chapter one!!

    * It is occurring again, because of what I have read in Revelation 22:6-13.

    'And he said unto me,
    'These sayings are faithful and true:
    and the Lord God of the holy prophets
    sent His angel to shew unto His servants
    the things which must shortly be done.
    Behold, I come quickly:
    blessed is he that keepeth
    the sayings of the prophecy of this book.'

    (6 & 7)
    And I John saw these things, and heard them.
    And when I had heard and seen,
    I fell down to worship
    before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    Then saith he unto me,

    "See thou do it not:
    for I am thy fellowservant,
    and of thy brethren the prophets,
    and of them which keep the sayings of this book:
    worship God."

    And he saith unto me,
    Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still:
    and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:
    and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still:
    and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    "And, behold, I come quickly;
    and my reward is with me,
    to give every man according as his work shall be.
    I am Alpha and Omega,
    the beginning and the end,
    the first and the last."


    * In Revelation 1:1, we can see the chain of command:- 'the revelation of Jesus Christ', was given to Him, by God; to shew unto God's servants (the people of Israel), things which must shortly come to pass; He (the Lord Jesus Christ) sent this revelation, by means of His angel, to John, for him to record and reveal. The angel was 'representative' of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Lord spoke through Him to John.

    * John is so overwhelmed that he fell down to worship the angel who represented the Lord Jesus Christ (22:8), but the angel immediately tells him not to do such a thing, and he describes himself as John's 'fellowservant', as were the prophets, John's brethren (the children of Israel), and those who 'keep' the sayings of this book. (22:7) (interesting).

    * The repetition of the words, 'I am Alpha and Omega, ... ' show this to be the same as seen in Revelation 1:12-17. The angel portrays the Lord, both in appearance, in word and in deed, but he is horrified that John should attempt to worship him.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris


    PS: I hope you do not find my quoting instead of referencing Scripture irritating.
     
  9. Hi @Abdicate,

    Yes, we are indeed 'The Body of Christ': as the Church of which He is the 'Head'; but I don't believe that the Church is the subject of the Book of Revelation. The churches are not representative of the Church which is His Body, and the seven angels, are just that, God's messengers. The Church which is the Body of Christ, is not associated with the nation of Israel, it is a newly created company, following the laying aside of Israel in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period.

    The epistles written following the revelation given to Paul (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon) could be lifted out of the text of Scripture and do no damage to the message given in what remains: for what remains is Israel related.

    The Church which is His Body is a spiritual company, it's blessings and it's hope are all spiritual in character and scope: whereas the church born at Pentecost is a fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy, and the culmination of the gospel records: and the book of Revelation completes it. It's hope is to be realized on the earth, in the New Jerusalem: and not in heavenly places, which is the sphere of blessing for the Church which is His Body.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  10. Do not forget Jesus's transfiguration on the mount were his appearance changed to where his face shined like the sun it its strength, and his clothes became white as light. White meaning "light" as God wraps himself in light.

    Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
    Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

    Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
     
    Complete likes this.
  11. God is light I do not believe you can say he "wraps himself in light" that would be the devils job when he comes as an angel of light ?
    If God is light then his rainment will reflect if you will the light of His person.

    "His LIFE was the light of men"

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  12. 1Ti 6:16.. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Psa 104:1.. Praise the LORD, my soul. LORD my God, you are very great; you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
    Psa 104:2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent (NiRV)
     
    Complete and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  13. Many times in the Old Testament Jesus appeared in his pre incarnate state as the "Angel of the Lord"
    When appearing to Moses in the burning bush he was the "Angel of the Lord" yet he called himself as "the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob."

    Exo 3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
    Exo 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

    Exo 3:6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
     
    Major and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  14. I stand corrected . Very interesting. Thanks

    In Christ
    Gerald
     
    Major, calvin and Euphemia says Amen and like this.
  15. Anyone who finds the quoting of Scripture to be irritating needs to make sure that they are in fact saved!!!

    *..............Correct!

    *...............Correct!

    *................I do not think that HE was horrified by Joh's action but moved to encourage John because John had been overcome.
    "Fear not" is not about the act of worship but one of greeting from deity in love.

    Are you wanting to do a study of the Revelation or are you just explaining why you were hung up on who the angel in chapter 1 was????

    Just asking.
     
  16. Hello @CCW95A,

    Thank you for your input, I loved the verses you quoted, and your reasoning.

    In Reply#13, you refer to the burning bush, (Exodus 3:1,2,6), and the appearing of the Angel of the Lord, and refer to the angel as being the Lord Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state. Yes? This is my understanding, too, CCW95A, but why? Why do we believe this? Is it because of what God says, through the angel, out of the burning bush, in verses 4-8, 14: yet, if an angel is God's messenger, then He is God's mouthpiece, so what He says must be ascribed to God Himself. It is God speaking.

    I have never questioned my acceptance of this before, but now I would really like to know why I believe this. For I believe it is something I have accepted without question, but not investigated for myself. I do not wish to cast doubt upon this, simply to be able to give my reason for believing it is so. Do you understand?

    * Can you, or any of our other participant, tell me why they know of a surety that this is the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ?

    Thank you,
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  17. Hi @Major,

    In answer to your question: I am happy to take it as it comes. My main concern was with the angel of Revelation chapter one (10-18). What CCW95A has said in his response has revealed to me an uneasiness that I have felt concerning the ascribing of angelic appearances in the Old Testament to the pre-incarnate Lord. Unease, because though I believe it, because I have been told so, I do not 'know' it because of personal investigation.

    There are those who believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is only an angel: that He is not God; but merely a 'son of god' as angelic beings are described. I refute that absolutely, of course. However, the ascription of angeicl appearances in the Old Testament to the person of the Lord Jesus Christ adds fuel to their argument, doesn't it?

    As I said to CCW95A, I have always believed that these appearances are that of the Lord Jesus Christ pre-incarnate, but I need to know the reason why I believe this. Perhaps you, Abdicate, Geralduk, or another member of the forum, will be able to supply the necessary Scriptural proof.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  18. I understand and I will do my best to help you. You are such a nice and compassionate child of God that I can do no less than that.

    Now then. In theological study there is a thing called the "Law of First Mention". One of the most remarkable evidences of Biblical unity is the internal consistency which binds the thoughts of God together for proper contextual understanding. Whenever we see anything mentioned for the first time, that idea or topic is revealed in its "seed form", meaning most of the main traits of that teaching that will unfold throughout scripture are found in that first mention.

    Example:
    Acts 11:25-26 ..........
    "And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul; 26and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. "

    Another example:
    God first speaks in Genesis 1:3 First words and last words of people make for an interesting study in the Bible. God is introduced in the Bible as the God of Revelation. He is speaking forth into being all things visible and invisible. The Apostle John gives us the significance of Genesis 1:3 in John 1:1-18.

    Now how does not help in defining the angel you are asking about???

    In Exodus 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Now watch this................
    " And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn. So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up and GOD called out to Moses. Not an angel or a vision or a thought or a dream but GOD called.

    This is the FIRST MENTION of the phrase......:Angel Of The Lord".

    The One from the bush went to say, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God (Verse 6).

    Now lets use proper context as we read from Colossians 1:12-16.........
    "Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. "

    So then, THE Creator or agent or person who is the Creator is in fact the Lord Jesus Christ and that means the One in the bush is the Pre-incarnant Christ because God called unto Moses. From that point in Exodus, every time we see the phrase "Angel of the Lord", it is about the Person of Jesus Christ.
     
    Complete likes this.
  19. As you already know the word, "angel" simply means "messenger". Jesus is NOT an angelic angel, nor was he ever created. Jesus was and is a messenger of God, but this messenger is the "message" as he is the Word of God that proceeds out of the mouth of God the Father. A message comes from Words which Jesus is the Word of God. When God sends the angel (messenger, Word) of the Lord, God is actually sending himself. (Which is why in Revelations it said, he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: "
    Contain within every Word dwells and lives all the fullness of the Godhead. God's "body" is his Word in which he lives as stated in this verse....

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Col 2:9 For in him (the Word) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Does this make any sense?
     
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  20. Jesus Christ existed long before Abraham or Moses, in fact he always was. Jesus tells a group of people that before Abraham was ever born he himself existed...

    Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jesus even used the same name that he told Moses of who he was.

    Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
     
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